Sol's Anvil vs...

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ The idea that Sol's Anvil only channeled a portion of the Sun's energy shouldn't diminish the power it demonstrated. In comics, the Sun's energy has its own share of low and high feats.

It's still just a star.

On the other end of the spectrum, Superman sitting in the Sun for only a few minutes empowered him to levels that outmuscled a Warworld's FTL engines amped by Imperiex's energies.

Yeah, but Superman hypermetabolizes the energy of the sun. It's not that he's simply solar powered -- his biology amplifies the energy.

Sol's Anvil should be measured by what it accomplished, not what energy it harnessed. It's the most reliable way to measure it considering the above. The theory connecting Hickman to Millar is interesting though.

Sol's Anvil should be judged on both what it accomplished and how it accomplished it, especially when these particular alternate universe Celestials have an indeterminant level of power -- here they blast the earth and the Fantastic Four to little effect, and earlier they were destroyed with ease by a few weapons Reed Richards fished out of his closet

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
It certainly would have been a convenient, clever and completely sensical opportunity to reinforce continuity. In that vein, I was anticipating that Doom would use his MoD powers to stall the Mad Celestials but that didn't happen obviously.

You edited this bit in after I 'quoted' you.

It's almost certainly the goal there -- the original Millar Defenders concept made no mention of the sun losing power, that I can recall, but instead was about a paucity of planetary resources and a population explosion.

Hickman made a small retcon to fit it all in, as he loves puzzle pieces. You can see him using continuity at various points in his run, like dealing with Doom's loss of intelligence from Pak's Hulk stuff, and he's said before one of his joys is fitting in what other people are doing or have done. He's made frequent use of Millar's run -- the Galactus Corpse and Nu Earth and all those characters.

Originally posted by Desaad
It's still just a star.

Originally posted by Desaad
Yeah, but Superman hypermetabolizes the energy of the sun. It's not that he's simply solar powered -- his biology amplifies the energy.

Originally posted by Desaad
Sol's Anvil should be judged on both what it accomplished and how it accomplished it, especially when these particular alternate universe Celestials have an indeterminant level of power -- here they blast the earth and the Fantastic Four to little effect, and earlier they were destroyed with ease by a few weapons Reed Richards fished out of his closet

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
And planets are just planets. But 4 planets empowered Galactus to the point where he could no-sell multiple Nega Bombs and fight Mad Celestials.

Ah, EXACTLY. That's exactly it. Just as Superman hypermetabolizes energy, Galactus could well hypermetabolize the energy of those planets. It need not even be that the energy of the planets is what he directly puts out, as he wields "The Power Cosmic", rather than the bio-energy of planets.

I am not aware of anything that bars Sol Anvil from doing something similar.

They just described what it did. It's described in issue 15 of the FF series. If they had said "channels and amplifies", then we'd be good to go. But that isn't how they described it, so that isn't what it does.

They defeated the entire Council of Reeds off-panel. They beat Franklin Richards. They one-shotted a Galactus that ate 4 planets.

They beat Franklin Richards...kind of. By attacking his mind. How many fights has this Franklin won on his own? And issue 15 makes it clear that he is holding back for this coming moment.

Again, we saw straight away that some of 616 Reeds' weapons were killing the Celestials without issue, with one shot, in the first arc of the series.

And yes, they one shotted Galactus, who had been fighting them for a while and had just, as you say, no sold the Kree Armada's ultimate attacks. Which gives us absolutely no idea how they would have weathered a blast from that same Galactus, had he had a chance to get one off. He didn't, so we don't know.

Originally posted by Desaad
Galactus never had a chance to attack the Voltron Celestial, though, so we don't know if he might have been able to shatter it the way that Sol's Anvil did/does. Obviously being that they combined the power of 3 celestials and then presumably used the casing of the one dead Celestial for extra armor they had a lot more firepower at their disposal, but not necessarily that much more durability. Could be, but we just don't know, and it isn't as if Galactus tried and failed.

I dunno, I just can't follow the logic that 4 Celestials merging into a single amalgam would retain the same durability that they each had individually... Especially when said fusion blatantly increased their overall power so significantly. /shrug

Originally posted by Desaad
They beat Franklin Richards...kind of. By attacking his mind.

Good thing they weren't merged.

✅

Originally posted by Galan007
Imo, you seem to be digging for reasons to make the "mad" Celestials seem less impressive than they are. The Celestial mecha was obviously meant to be more powerful in every way. That's why, when they began merging, Galactus exclaimed: "No!" He knew what their power would become--he knew that he would be nothing in comparison. This is also why, in an earlier issue, one of the Council of Reed members (which have access to multiple IGs/UNs) stated: "Consider it good fortune that they did not combine", shortly after he/they fled from the individual "mad" Celestials.

I dunno, I just can't follow the logic that 4 Celestials merging into a single amalgam would retain the same durability that they each had individually... Especially when said fusion blatantly increased their overall power so significantly. /shrug

A Celestial KO'd Franklin by blasting him casually:

Good thing they weren't merged.

I don't think the analogy of "Voltron" that's been thrown around here is correct. I think the more apt comparison is the Transformer combiner teams from the old G1 Transformers cartoons.

The gist is that while the individual members had varying degrees of power in their own right, by the time they combined into a gestalt form their durability, power, strength, even size all increased multiple fold; a blast that could KO one individual member would harmlessly glance off the combined form.

^ 👆

Originally posted by Desaad
Ah, EXACTLY. That's exactly it. Just as Superman hypermetabolizes energy, Galactus could well hypermetabolize the energy of those planets. It need not even be that the energy of the planets is what he directly puts out, as he wields "The Power Cosmic", rather than the bio-energy of planets.

They just described what it did. It's described in issue 15 of the FF series. If they had said "channels and amplifies", then we'd be good to go. But that isn't how they described it, so that isn't what it does.

Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. In any case, the implications are readily apparent, which should not be a foreign concept to you since you unwittingly invoked it with your Galactus comment.

Originally posted by Desaad
They beat Franklin Richards...kind of. By attacking his mind. How many fights has this Franklin won on his own? And issue 15 makes it clear that he is holding back for this coming moment.

Again, we saw straight away that some of 616 Reeds' weapons were killing the Celestials without issue, with one shot, in the first arc of the series.

And yes, they one shotted Galactus, who had been fighting them for a while and had just, as you say, no sold the Kree Armada's ultimate attacks. Which gives us absolutely no idea how they would have weathered a blast from that same Galactus, had he had a chance to get one off. He didn't, so we don't know.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
The Voltron Celestial was FAR MORE powerful in comparison to the other three in their original forms. All four individual Mad Celestials attacked Galactus simultaneously and Galactus tanked their attacks and even defeated one of them outright. This same Galactus got one-shotted by the Voltron Celestial. The difference in power should be apparent.

Voltron Celestial = Three Mad Celestials + residual energies from the other Celestial originally defeated by Galactus. So, yes, a Voltron Celestial is obviously more powerful than a single Celestial in its original form. That said, if the three remaining Celestials had chosen to hit Galactus with concussive blasts at the very same time, he would likely have fallen much in the same way he did against the Voltron Celestial. Also, Galactus appeared to be grappling with the four Celestials before he took down one of them; he didn't really "tank" their attacks -- they were just struggling.

Originally posted by Galan007
A Celestial KO'd Franklin by blasting him casually:

Good thing they weren't merged.

That particular scene was meant to coincide with another scene from Fantastic Four#603, where Franklin, along with his other family members, were blasted by the 3 Celestials, who broke through Susan's forcefield. She was the first one to get up.

As for Franklin getting KO'd, yeah, that's no surprise. Although, he's an immensely powerful character, he still feels and reacts like a normal human being. If his own sister pushed him hard enough, he'd fall down. That's why the Mad Celestials referred to him as an anomaly. He's a creature capable of mass destruction, but on the same token, he's vulnerable due to his obvious humanity.

Adult Franklin, on the other hand, seems to be a lot more experienced and conscious of what he can do. It should be interesting to see what happens when he confronts the Mad Celestials in #604.

Originally posted by Desaad
Ah, EXACTLY. That's exactly it. Just as Superman hypermetabolizes energy, Galactus could well hypermetabolize the energy of those planets. It need not even be that the energy of the planets is what he directly puts out, as he wields "The Power Cosmic", rather than the bio-energy of planets.

They just described what it did. It's described in issue 15 of the FF series. If they had said "channels and amplifies", then we'd be good to go. But that isn't how they described it, so that isn't what it does.

They beat Franklin Richards...kind of. By attacking his mind. How many fights has this Franklin won on his own? And issue 15 makes it clear that he is holding back for this coming moment.

Again, we saw straight away that some of 616 Reeds' weapons were killing the Celestials without issue, with one shot, in the first arc of the series.

And yes, they one shotted Galactus, who had been fighting them for a while and had just, as you say, no sold the Kree Armada's ultimate attacks. Which gives us absolutely no idea how they would have weathered a blast from that same Galactus, had he had a chance to get one off. He didn't, so we don't know.

Agreed. Nice to see that someone actually reads the words, as opposed to simply drawing conclusions from pictures.

Originally posted by Doon
Voltron Celestial = Three Mad Celestials + residual energies from the other Celestial originally defeated by Galactus. So, yes, a Voltron Celestial is obviously more powerful than a single Celestial in its original form. That said, if the three remaining Celestials had chosen to hit Galactus with concussive blasts at the very same time, he would likely have fallen much in the same way he did against the Voltron Celestial. Also, Galactus appeared to be grappling with the four Celestials before he took down one of them; he didn't really "tank" their attacks -- they were just struggling.

Either way, enough has been said by multiple posters concerning the smear campaign that has become readily evident. There's little here that could be considered constructive conversation. Just speculation, false distinctions and a shocking disregard for common sense.

Originally posted by Power Cosmic II
a blast that could KO one individual member would harmlessly glance off the combined form.

rumble dismantled devastator with his piston rams creating shockwaved on the floor (the floor being the hull of astrotrain, so that's another point deducted in the theory) in the REAL transformers movie, and rumble is just one of soundwave's cassette minions

it's not really a sound argument when transformers are involved

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ 👆 for the most part.

WPTOC has no feats. I'd put her in the dead category to be resurrected some years later.

Buuulllshit by the thread makers terms the characters are prepped and allowed to defend themselves against the blast through shielding and when that isnt part of the characters powerset we judge this from whatever durability they've shown as well. Jean as Phoenix has happily bathed in the energy of stars first (arguably )in the Dark Phoenix Saga and again in New X-men when Xorneto sabotaged Asteroid M sending Jean and Logan into the Sun. Please acquaint yourself with the comics the character in question is featured in 🙂

^ Stow your nonsense. Thor has sat in a Sun as has Surfer. A weakened devastated Galactus "happily bathed in the actual Sun" also. We saw what Sol's Anvil did to an amped Galactus that had fed on 4 planets.

Your comment is both laughable in its nearsightedness and the scope of sheer idiocy reached.

Read some comics.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Stow your nonsense. Thor has sat in a Sun as has Surfer. A weakened devastated Galactus "happily bathed in the actual Sun" also. We saw what Sol's Anvil did to an amped Galactus that had fed on 4 planets.

Your comment is both laughable in its nearsightedness and the scope of sheer idiocy reached.

Read some comics.

Your response as expected comes after a superficial look at my initial post. As ever this is why in your dealings with me you always come undone 🙂

Your post stated that Jean had no feats whatsoever to be considered capable of surviving Sols Anvil which of course is rubbish.

In response i reiterated the threadmakers point that the characters are prepped and are judged on both their ability to create shielding and on their durability.

Now you tell me, do you think Jeans powerset gives her the capability of creating protective shielding? 😖hifty:

Is Jeans ability to do this common knowledge? ✅

Should i therefore have to spell it out to anyone but the most simple minded amongst us here? 😕

So with that in mind thinking emphasizing what the threadmakers criteria for judging the characters is, i merely mentioned some durability feats of Jean related to the Sun from which Sols Anvil draws its power.

It appears i overestimated your capacity. Be embarassed 🙄

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
All 4 attacked Galactus simultaneously. Your prevarications are shockingly ignorant of what actually occurred on-panel. If you think they were rushing to give him a hug, I'm not hear to humor such farces.

Either way, enough has been said by multiple posters concerning the smear campaign that has become readily evident. There's little here that could be considered constructive conversation. Just speculation, false distinctions and a shocking disregard for common sense.

Yes, 4 of them attacked him simultaneously. Whether you like it or not, though, the precise nature of their attacks is worthy of notice. Prior to combining, did they extend their arms at the same time and blast Galactus with beams of concussive force? Well, we don't know for sure because it wasn't revealed on-panel. The merge tactic simply allowed them to better focus on their target; and it also prevented Galactus from picking them off one by one.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Your response as expected comes after a superficial look at my initial post. As ever this is why in your dealings with me you always come undone 🙂

Your post stated that Jean had no feats whatsoever to be considered capable of surviving Sols Anvil which of course is rubbish.

In response i reiterated the threadmakers point that the characters are prepped and are judged on both their ability to create shielding and on their durability.

Now you tell me, do you think Jeans powerset gives her the capability of creating protective shielding? 😖hifty:

Is Jeans ability to do this common knowledge? ✅

Should i therefore have to spell it out to anyone but the most simple minded amongst us here? 😕

So with that in mind thinking emphasizing what the threadmakers criteria for judging the characters is, i merely mentioned some durability feats of Jean related to the Sun from which Sols Anvil draws its power.

It appears i overestimated your capacity. Be embarassed 🙄

Where her shielding is concerned: frankly, I don't know what she is capable of blocking... But that's not what I'm questioning/debating/talking about, either (before you start.)

ODG...GS, don't fight.

This is why we can't have nice things.