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The problem is that we don't really have much to establish Revans combat prowess with. We know that he'll be able to easily handle Dookus Force Lightning, and I guess we can guess that from that he'd not be outclassed in other applications of the Force. But in terms of Revans abilities with a lightsaber we are largely in the dark and he's up against one of the greatest duelists in the mythos.
His 'fight' (read: ownage) against Nyriss and the fight with Vitiate establish him as very powerful, but other than that idk.
Originally posted by Battlemaster
I'd say Revan wins here.He has a slightly more impressive track-record than Dooku, and aside from seizing the mantle of Dark Lord by force, he managed to embrace the Dark side and still return to the light.
Dooku failed to do this.
It would be a close fight, though.
Revan didn't manage but was "reprogrammed". After that with no memories and spell from Vitiate he just acted like any person with good personality and sense of moral.
In terms of Force Revan is on Yoda level or maybe above.
But with lightsaber Dooku most likely takes it.
Also, Revan has got weakness. He uses both light and dark side powers. Although, it gives him several advantages, yet, it limits him from what true Jedi could be.
Originally posted by Arhael
Revan didn't manage but was "reprogrammed". After that with no memories and spell from Vitiate he just acted like any person with good personality and sense of moral.
It goes beyond that.
Remember, after being reprogrammed by the Council and sent with Bastilla, Revan still had to face all the Darkness he himself had fostered in the known galaxy, and had to face his own dark past as Dork Lord of the Sith.
He was even given a chance to reclaim that mantle, and resisted the Dark side from within and without, and stayed to the light.
Dooku went through similar trials, symbolically, and failed where Revan succeeded.
Originally posted by Arhael
In terms of Force Revan is on Yoda level or maybe above.
But with lightsaber Dooku most likely takes it.
Not so sure. The Force does enhance a person's ability to wield a lightsaber to a degree, and Malak was enhanced by the Star Forge, and yet Revan still defeated him.
If we could say that Malak is at least even with RotS Anakin or slightly better, Revan still defeats Dooku.
Originally posted by Arhael
Also, Revan has got weakness. He uses both light and dark side powers. Although, it gives him several advantages, yet, it limits him from what true Jedi could be.
Hit the nail on the head here. It's actually a very insightful point.
Originally posted by Battlemaster
It goes beyond that.Remember, after being reprogrammed by the Council and sent with Bastilla, Revan still had to face all the Darkness he himself had fostered in the known galaxy, and had to face his own dark past as Dork Lord of the Sith.
He was even given a chance to reclaim that mantle, and resisted the Dark side from within and without, and stayed to the light.
Dooku went through similar trials, symbolically, and failed where Revan succeeded.
Not so sure. The Force does enhance a person's ability to wield a lightsaber to a degree, and Malak was enhanced by the Star Forge, and yet Revan still defeated him.It does but on a more thin level. It depends on emotional state, on how Force user draws on it, on how deeply he is attuned to it and how he understands the Force in general. Your example with Malak being enhanced by Star Forge just proves it. A Sith can become walking nexus of darkside power like Palpatine or Vitiate and still loose to a jedi knight.
Hit the nail on the head here. It's actually a very insightful point.You can't defeat darkness by darkness...
Originally posted by Arhael
During mandalorian war Revan killed a lot of people, it corrupted him and brought closer to dark side. Yet, he had high morals and would not be simply influenced by a Sith. Vitiate did not influence him, he mind dominated him and things Revan done during war made it much easier for him. So Revan didn't turn to dark side voluntarily.
But he turned back to the light voluntarily.
Originally posted by Arhael
With Dooku it is completely different case. He was a Jedi with decades of experience. He lost fate in republic system, weighted all ups and downs and chose darkside voluntarily. He didn't become Sith because of lust for power or seeking self-proclamation, he wanted a galaxy with strict order. So there is no weakness in his decision to become Sith lord, it's a matter of ideals.
No, Dooku became a Sith to infiltrate the Order and kill off Darth Sidious.
His primary goal was the destruction of the Sith, from within, and if he had been powerful enough before Anakin killed him, he would have assassinated Sidious.
Like Ulic before him, when Dooku aligned himself with the Dark side, he ultimately became lost within it - even going so far as to turn away the advances of his old friend and Master Yoda, who had tried to turn him back to the light.
Dooku succumbed to the Darkness ultimately - where Revan emerged from it, back into the Light.
Originally posted by Arhael
It does but on a more thin level. It depends on emotional state, on how Force user draws on it, on how deeply he is attuned to it and how he understands the Force in general. Your example with Malak being enhanced by Star Forge just proves it. A Sith can become walking nexus of darkside power like Palpatine or Vitiate and still loose to a jedi knight.
Revan was a Jedi Master, and former Dark Lord of the Sith - no mere "Jedi Knight".
Revan defeated a incredibly powered and enhanced Malak because he was deadlier. Period.
Originally posted by Arhael
You can't defeat darkness by darkness...
Tell that to the folks who created the Riddick franchise. 🙄 😛
Originally posted by BattlemasterNo, he didn't. He chose to stay on the Light Side once he was already there, but the catalyst for his redemption wasn't anywhere remotely of his own doing.
But he turned back to the light voluntarily.
Originally posted by BattlemasterThat has absolutely no bearing on combat prowess or strength in the Force. Strength of character maybe, but that's it. This is like saying that Vitiate, Nihilus, Bane, or Palpatine are weaker in power than Bastila, Juhani, and Maris Brood simply because they didn't swing the moral pendulum.
No, Dooku became a Sith to infiltrate the Order and kill off Darth Sidious.
His primary goal was the destruction of the Sith, from within, and if he had been powerful enough before Anakin killed him, he would have assassinated Sidious.Like Ulic before him, when Dooku aligned himself with the Dark side, he ultimately became lost within it - even going so far as to turn away the advances of his old friend and Master Yoda, who had tried to turn him back to the light.
Dooku succumbed to the Darkness ultimately - where Revan emerged from it, back into the Light.
Originally posted by BattlemasterAnd given every indication within the EU, Dooku is deadlier than either of them. Period.
Revan was a Jedi Master, and former Dark Lord of the Sith - no mere "Jedi Knight".Revan defeated a incredibly powered and enhanced Malak because he was deadlier. Period.
No, Dooku became a Sith to infiltrate the Order and kill off Darth Sidious.
His primary goal was the destruction of the Sith, from within, and if he had been powerful enough before Anakin killed him, he would have assassinated Sidious.
"Shortly after their meeting on Coruscant, Dooku was approached directly by Darth Sidious. They had a long discussion, and Dooku found that Palpatine's goals were not dissimilar to his own."
Quotes from wookieepedia. Probably it's not very reliable but could you, please, show any source, where it says that Dooku infiltrated Sith Order to eliminate it from within? His turn to dark side was logical conclusion backed up by long experience, nothing to do with lust for power and selfishness. He wasn't anything like Palpatine or other ancient Sith. Even, when he incapacitated Kenobi and Anakin, there was no hint of enjoying it, he even looked sad.
where Revan emerged from it, back into the Light.
Revan was a Jedi Master, and former Dark Lord of the Sith - no mere "Jedi Knight".Revan defeated a incredibly powered and enhanced Malak because he was deadlier. Period.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
No, he didn't. He chose to stay on the Light Side once he was already there, but the catalyst for his redemption wasn't anywhere remotely of his own doing.
Arguable.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
That has absolutely no bearing on combat prowess or strength in the Force. Strength of character maybe, but that's it. This is like saying that Vitiate, Nihilus, Bane, or Palpatine are weaker in power than Bastila, Juhani, and Maris Brood simply because they didn't swing the moral pendulum.
True. But it's just part of our discussion.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
And given every indication within the EU, Dooku is deadlier than either of them. Period.
Speculation.
Originally posted by BattlemasterInarguable. Unless you think Revan was having a change of heart prior to Malak's betrayal, Bastila's assault, and the Council's decision to re-program his mind. Or are you saying that those were all his decisions?
Arguable.
Originally posted by BattlemasterAnd a herring of tree-chopping proportions.
True. But it's just part of our discussion.
Originally posted by BattlemasterFactulation. Revan's still quite the Unknown. The novel and game hasn't given us much else to work on.
Speculation.
Originally posted by Arhael
"Following the death of Qui-Gon at the hands of Darth Maul, Dooku finally left the Order and spoke to Palpatine about his plans to become Count of Serenno and to seek a potential alliance with the Sith, as he believed that they shared his aim to reforge the galaxy. Dooku had given some thought to hunting down the hidden second Sith in revenge for Qui-Gon's death, but concluded that even eliminating both Sith would not halt what he felt was the inevitable advance of the dark side.""Shortly after their meeting on Coruscant, Dooku was approached directly by Darth Sidious. They had a long discussion, and Dooku found that Palpatine's goals were not dissimilar to his own."
Quotes from wookieepedia. Probably it's not very reliable but could you, please, show any source, where it says that Dooku infiltrated Sith Order to eliminate it from within? His turn to dark side was logical conclusion backed up by long experience, nothing to do with lust for power and selfishness. He wasn't anything like Palpatine or other ancient Sith. Even, when he incapacitated Kenobi and Anakin, there was no hint of enjoying it, he even looked sad.
Wookieepedia isn't very reliable.
The PT movies themselves made it pretty clear that Dooku had been tainted by the need for power and selfishness, and as I think some veteran debators here likely know, Dooku had plans to off Sidious as soon as he had enough power and the right timing to do so.
In the beginning, Dooku might have been motivated by political ideals - however, this particular drive did not last long. Dooku ultimately found a need to gain more power within the Force, and crush the Sith.
Originally posted by Arhael
Lucien already answered it...
Revan's willingness to stick to the light, lends to his moral discipline, amongst other things - something Dooku, even with help from Yoda, failed to have.
That's the point.
Originally posted by Arhael
And ultimately failed against Vitiate with his fancy practicing of both light and dark powers. It was Revan's opinion that Sith Emperor will be defeated by "Champion of the light side". Saying that Revan was more powerful than Malak imbued by Star Forge is as absurd as saying that Jedi knight was more powerful than Vitiate imbued by millions of lives consumed from his home planet. It's not power that grands victory.
If Revan hadn't been more powerful than a Star Forge-enhanced Malak, then there wouldn't be a novel about his current exploits.
It is true that power does not grant victory - but rather how said power, is used.
Revan is evidenced to be a savvy fighter, with both a lightsaber and the Force.
As another well-seasoned debator already pointed out previously here, Revan could easily handle Dooku's lightning and other powers.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Inarguable. Unless you think Revan was having a change of heart prior to Malak's betrayal, Bastila's assault, and the Council's decision to re-program his mind. Or are you saying that those were all his decisions?
I'm speaking of after the fact.
Revan faced the demons he had knowingly created during his time as Dark Lord, and during his quest to locate the Star Forge had opportunities to fall back to the Dark side, but didn't
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Factulation. Revan's still quite the Unknown. The novel and game hasn't given us much else to work on.
Except that he has Force powers that apparently put him on par with Yoda, in the eyes of many great debators here.
Originally posted by BattlemasterAnd that's what I said: "He chose to stay on the Light Side once he was already there, but the catalyst for his redemption wasn't anywhere remotely of his own doing." Something he himself admitted.
I'm speaking of after the fact.Revan faced the demons he had knowingly created during his time as Dark Lord, and during his quest to locate the Star Forge had opportunities to fall back to the Dark side, but didn't
Originally posted by BattlemasterTo some. Others also put Marka Ragnos' powers on par with no one. Fact is, Revan's got a lot of story, and lots of gameplay mechanics, but few specifics in his combative abilities. Dooku's got much more and it's a very impressive resume.
Except that he has Force powers that apparently put him on par with Yoda, in the eyes of many great debators here.
Wookieepedia isn't very reliable.
Dooku had plans to off Sidious as soon as he had enough power and the right timing to do so.This is absolutely normal for Sith and is actually part of Rule of Two philosophy.
In the beginning, Dooku might have been motivated by political ideals - however, this particular drive did not last long. Dooku ultimately found a need to gain more power within the Force, and crush the Sith.Did he use any Sith sorcery to increase his powers like Palpatine? Did he take joy in killing innocents just for fun sake? He was ruthless but he killed and did other horrible things only, when necessary and without pleasure.
If Revan hadn't been more powerful than a Star Forge-enhanced Malak, then there wouldn't be a novel about his current exploits.
It is true that power does not grant victory - but rather how said power, is used.This is basically explanation of why Revan won.
As another well-seasoned debator already pointed out previously here, Revan could easily handle Dooku's lightning and other powers.Absorbing lightning is simply a Force technique, which is a very rare talent but does not indicate how powerful user is.
Revan faced the demons he had knowingly created during his time as Dark Lord, and during his quest to locate the Star Forge had opportunities to fall back to the Dark side, but didn'tOnes again, he didn't have choice to become Sith, he was mind dominated. And he didn't have choice to abandon Sith ways, he was memory wiped. While retracing Star Forge he had choice of who he is to be. In novel he remembered everything but darkside taking over was out of question, since he had pregnant wife waiting for him at home.