Count Dooku Versus Revan

Originally posted by Arhael
Maturit and age can be a negative thing as well. When you start thinking to much and consider things on bigger scale, it creates problem. I find Dooku to have a lot of common with Jacen Solo.

Originally posted by Arhael
They actually accepted him back but, yes, there was a lot of resentment, it was said somewhere in the book. You confirm it yourself by saying that he was forbidden to have a student, which implies that they had control over him. Also, he had free access to Jedi library, which, also, proves that he was considered part of Jedi.

Revan reached a compromise with the Jedi Council;

In the end a compromise was reached. The Jedi would not speak out against his marriage to Bastila. Officially, both would still be recognized as Jedi in good standing, with all corresponding rights and privileges. In exchange, Revan promised not to spread his heresy to other members of the Order. (Source: SWTOR - Revan)

Originally posted by Arhael
Yes, I can and I will. You can't discard solutions because of disagreements, especially when it comes to something potentially serious. It is, also, wrong to take too much on yourself.

Originally posted by Arhael
Since Jedi did not do anything and were puppets of Counselor of that corrupted government, it suddenly doesn't look like such a bad solution.

Originally posted by Arhael
What should he see from that war? It was initiated by different governments. The war started because Republic failed to satisfy the planets that went into rebellion and to insure stability of the majority of the galaxy in general. Who is right and who is wrong?

Droid armies were being assembled by so-called separatists and led to peaceful worlds to spread voilence and instability. Republic had no option but to respond with overwhelming force. However, the supreme chancellor of the Republic also happened to be the leader of the separatist movement. Do you believe that Count Dooku did not knew this?

Originally posted by Arhael
I am talking about point, when he woke up on a ship attacked by Sith. Sith are attackers. Planet is occupied by Sith. Everyone's life is miserable because of Sith. Everything is black and white.

Originally posted by Arhael
Did I talk about Sith idealism? She is the only one who was capable to turn good and selfless person to darkside. Others just sucked in this art.

Originally posted by Arhael
Malak instead of convincing Bastilla was simply electrocuting her and bending her will, not very artful.

Originally posted by Arhael
Not surprised that Revan was able to convince her turn back to light as there was no substantial reason to hold to.

However, this changed the situation;

But Revan had seen its redemptive powers firsthand. It was his love that had brought Bastila back to the light; their emotional bond had wrought salvation for both of them. (Source: SWTOR - Revan)

Originally posted by Arhael
Nope 😛

Originally posted by Arhael
But he wasn't interested in politics and had his own conclusions.

Originally posted by Arhael
Me too.

Originally posted by Nephthys
"The shift had been the outcome of months of intense meditation, during which Plagueis and Sidious had sought to challenge the Force for sovereignty and suffuse the galaxy with the power of the dark side. Brazen and shameless, and at their own mortal peril, they had waged etheric war, anticipating that their own midi-chlorians, the Force's proxy army, might marshal to boil their blood or stop the beating of their hearts. Risen out of themselves, discorporate and as a single entity, they had brought the power of their will to bear, asserting their sovereignty over the Force. No counterforce had risen against them. In what amounted to a state of rapture they knew that the Force had yielded, as if some deity had been tipped from its throne. On the fulcrum they had fashioned, the light side had dipped and the dark side had ascended."

- [b]The Unbalancing of the Force.

Plagueis and Sidious used a ritual to place the Dark side in ascendancy. [/B]

Thank you.

How maturity can be negative thing? A mature individual would make smart decisions and not experiment much.

They did not had any control over him.

Your understanding is flawed. Revan' memories were slowly recovering in the form of visions. He started an investigation to uncover the facts. He also wanted to find Meetra Surik. Unfortunately, he got captured during the process. He did not get time to plan something big.

It WAS a bad decision. Better option was to leave the Order to register his protest in front of the Jedi Council and start a movement to support his cause. Funds were not an issue for him as he was rich.

It was a huge farse.
Droid armies were being assembled by so-called separatists and led to peaceful worlds to spread voilence and instability. Republic had no option but to respond with overwhelming force.

However, the supreme chancellor of the Republic also happened to be the leader of the separatist movement. Do you believe that Count Dooku did not knew this?

Malak' acts were similar to those of Palpatine. Destroying whole worlds just to send a message. On the outside, Sith were ruthless. On the inside, politics and manipulation were common occurences.

Which good and selfless person, she turned to the dark side?

Bastilla was granted important position in the Sith Empire. It was sufficient reason for her to stick to her new position.

Available evidence supports my point of view.

He demonstrated inadequate self-control for his age.

He wasn't selfish and he did not succumb to darkside but used it as convenient tool.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Thank you.

I already started missing you. 😄

That ritual still does not prove that it was the only time Force was unbalanced. Neither it proves that Force wasn't farther unbalanced after.

Here is nice article supported by Lucas comments describing that balance in the Force is the balance without darkside:
http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=12176359

Here is cut from old neighborhood wookieepedia:
Many fans incorrectly assume that balance refers to an equal mix of both light and dark side users. However, as George Lucas explains in the introductory documentary for the VHS version A New Hope, Special Edition, this is not the case:
"The first film starts with the last age of the Republic, which is it's getting tired, it's old, it's getting corrupt.
There's the rise of the Sith, who are becoming a force, and in the backdrop of this we have Anakin Skywalker, a young boy who is destined to be a significant player in bringing balance back to the Force and to the Republic...
Then in the second film we get into more of that turmoil. It's the beginning of the Clone Wars, it's the beginning of the end of democracy in the Republic, sort of the beginning of the end of the Republic. And it's Anakin Skywalker beginning to deal with some of his more intense emotions of anger, hatred, sense of loss, possessiveness, jealousy, and the other things he has to cope with.
And then we will get to the 3rd film where he is seduced to the dark side..
Which brings us up to the films 4, 5, and 6, in which Anakin's offspring redeem him and allow him to fulfill the prophecy where he brings balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe..."

In an interview, Lucas compared the difference between the light and dark sides as being like the difference between a symbiotic relationship and a cancer. A symbiotic relationship is one which benefits both parties and in which neither is harmed, whereas a cancer takes without giving back, eventually causing the death of both parties.[3]"

In other words balance in the Force is when both good and bad people manage to leave in harmony. While darkside is "cancer" making both good and bad people suffer. Darksiders don't follow the will of the Force, they abuse it, hence destroying the balance.

If you look at what Lucas actually says its very iffy thats what he intended to imply.

In light of the Mortis trilogy, the most sensible interpretation of what shall heretofore be referred to as The Lucasian Balance seems to be equilibrium that is achieved with the destruction of the Sith. It isn't the presence of the dark side that is problematic, but rather the presence of particular dark siders who aggravate the balance.

Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
In light of the Mortis trilogy, the most sensible interpretation of what shall heretofore be referred to as The Lucasian Balance seems to be equilibrium that is achieved with the destruction of the Sith. It isn't the presence of the dark side that is problematic, but rather the presence of particular dark siders who aggravate the balance.

Originally posted by Arhael
That is very true. 👆

So you concede to your earlier statements about the subject to be false.

Originally posted by Arhael
With maturity ideals change. Experience people get through their life often change their opinions and not always in positive way. Jacen Solo was kidnapped twice. Ones by Hetrir. Second time by Shadow Academy. In both cases he was tortured and thought Sith ways. Yet, darkside didn't lure him. With maturity his ideals changed. He went through a lot, he started thinking on bigger scale, he started thinking politically. He accepted Sith ways as it suited his ideals. And most notably he was selfless even as Sith, darkside did not consume him, it was his convenient tool. Even after death he did not regret it, yet, he didn't hold any anger on Jaina or anybody else.

Originally posted by Arhael
Then why are you contradicting yourself? Obviously they couldn't enforce him to do anything but they still required him to follow certain rules. Control doesn't have to be like in empire.

Originally posted by Arhael
My understanding is flawed? I red the book as well and know the content. There was no time limit what so ever. He got captured in process of following his vision, not Meetra Surik. And still he did not attempt to share worries with Jedi Council and he was quite close to them as he attended Jedi library.

And how Revan would have attempted to share his worries with the Jedi Council during captivity?

Also, remember the case of Mandalorians? When Revan approached the Jedi Council on this issue, it refused to act. The trust factor was shaken during that very moment.

Originally posted by Arhael
Your logic is surprisingly one sided. How many politicians supported totalitarian regime? Were they all bad? No, they were exactly same people with different political views. How many planets enjoyed their life under Galactic Empire? And how many of those planets were suffering because of rebellion and later New Republic?
Pellaeon was one of the key figures leading Empire against New Republic. Was he a bad person? No. He had strong morals, he was noble and respected person. He died as hero and was remember as hero both by the whole galaxy. But why hero, if he was leading war against Republic? You see what I am implying on?

Originally posted by Arhael
Separatists started war because they were unhappy with the way republic treated them. It was obviously wrong. Yet, it was, also, Republic's fault for being so weak in terms of military, otherwise no one would dare to fight Republic. In TPM republic didn't have overwhelming forces in case you forgot.

And Republic did not had an enormous military during that time because it was a time of peace. When the civil war began, the need for enormous military also arose.

Originally posted by Arhael
At the time of TPM he didn't.

Originally posted by Arhael
How is it relevant at all? Did Dooku leave at that time?

Originally posted by Arhael
She was very close to turning Mitra.

Originally posted by Arhael
Not really sufficient for selfless person. He bent her will, twisted her mind. But there was no good reason for her to stay.

Originally posted by Arhael
So does mine.

Originally posted by Arhael
What exactly do you mean by that? He was perfectly self-controlled, when fighting Kenobi and Anakin first time. He didn't even relish victory over them and looked surprisingly sad. Didn't see him even ones succumbing to his anger.

Originally posted by Arhael
He wasn't selfish and he did not succumb to darkside but used it as convenient tool.

Count Dooku knows that he has been deceived not just today, but for many, many years. That he has never been the true apprentice. That he has never been the heir to the power of the Sith. He has been only a tool.

His whole life-all his victories, all his struggles, all his heritage, all his principles and his sacrifices, everything he's done, everything he owns, everything he's been, all his dreams and grand vision for the future Empire and the Army of Sith-have been only a pathetic sham, because all of them, all of him, add up only to this. (Source: ROTS book)

Very convenient tool indeed. 🙄

So the Son who was the darkside manifested, was not evil, or a sith right?

This is very interesting to me, because it means the lightside and the darkside is not inherently good and evil, but rather just tool seperate pools of power that depend entirely upon the individual to decide how they are used?

Bc it seemed the son wanted to help anakin destroy the sith who were misusing the dark side?

A dark sider is not necessarily a Sith. Keep this in mind.

Remember the behavior of Atris?

And how Revan would have attempted to share his worries with the Jedi Council during captivity?

Also, remember the case of Mandalorians? When Revan approached the Jedi Council on this issue, it refused to act. The trust factor was shaken during that very moment.

So joining the Sith was the correct path to address the issues at hand?

How the separatists were being treated?

This point is not for Count Dooku. Try to follow the argument or don't respond.

Being chosen as the apprentice to the Dark Lord himself and grant of special position on the Star Forge were not sufficient reasons to stay?

You should have no problem in convincing me then.

You are not getting my point. Dooku was seduced by the Sith Lord to join him and he easily fell for the false promises just like Anakin. Didn't he learn to not trust the Sith during his tenure as a Jedi? Hell, he was a Jedi Master and still demonstrated such a low self-control.

Count Dooku knows that he has been deceived not just today, but for many, many years. That he has never been the true apprentice. That he has never been the heir to the power of the Sith. He has been only a tool.

His whole life-all his victories, all his struggles, all his heritage, all his principles and his sacrifices, everything he's done, everything he owns, everything he's been, all his dreams and grand vision for the future Empire and the Army of Sith-have been only a pathetic sham, because all of them, all of him, add up only to this. (Source: ROTS book)

Originally posted by Battlemaster
So you concede to your earlier statements about the subject to be false.

So the Son who was the darkside manifested, was not evil, or a sith right?

Bc it seemed the son wanted to help anakin destroy the sith who were misusing the dark side?

This is very interesting to me, because it means the lightside and the darkside is not inherently good and evil, but rather just tool seperate pools of power that depend entirely upon the individual to decide how they are used?

Originally posted by Arhael
No. Did I say that darkside needs to be eliminated entirely? You said that the Force itself needs darkside, which I disagree. It is impossible to illuminate it completely, there will always be darkness luring. Palpatine and Vader were actively participating and distorting the balance, until Anakin fulfilled the prophecy. And that is why there was Luke as galaxy needed Jedi to maintain balance by protecting galaxy from more darkness that was to come.

Everything you agreed to, goes against all your earlier opinions.

Look up and read your posts, and then his.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Everything you agreed to, goes against all your earlier opinions.

Look up and read your posts, and then his.

^ To be fair you're never going to be able to match Lucas's statement on bringing balance and events of the SWEU.

Lucas didn't write any of the EU, and he has no issues in contradicting EU material.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
^ To be fair you're never going to be able to match Lucas's statement on bringing balance and events of the SWEU.

Lucas didn't write any of the EU, and he has no issues in contradicting EU material.

Agree. But instead of accepting that we just have different views she started saying that I don't have enough knowledge about Force, which kind of triggered me.

So, Battlemaster, forgive me. Lets maintain balance in the forum and live in harmony. ;D

Originally posted by Arhael
Agree. But instead of accepting that we just have different views she started saying that I don't have enough knowledge about Force, which kind of triggered me.

So, Battlemaster, forgive me. Lets maintain balance in the forum and live in harmony. ;D

Now every time I see a pink pony, it will remind me of you. 😉

It is the second one battlemaster, also i thought you would know to speak more politely to girls arhael.