Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Don't give Bioware any ideas. They've already Yoda'd up the KotOR era with Vandar and Oteg, give 'em half a chance and I'm sure some canon-hating writer at the office will petition Lucas for access to Anakin.
Oh, I know. Those writers are seriously ****ing idiots.
Star Wars doesn't have a soul anymore.😕
You really don't understand the concept of the nature of the imbalance Palpatine and Plageuis had created, do you?Yes, I don't understand "the concept". Because by ritual they created Anakin, not imbalance. Any source stating that it was actually their dark ritual that created imbalance? I didn't find any.General suffering wrought in the galaxy by Dark siders, does not create the imbalance we're talking about.
And it was Plageuis and Palpatine that created that imbalance - not Vader.
Vader restored balance. How? By killing the Sith. Why? Because they were the cause of imbalance.
Yes, it does.The Force needs both sides to exist and be in balance.
You really need to learn more about the Force.
No, they created the specific actual type of imbalance we're discussing, through a ritual, and not by increasing suffering of people.You really need to learn more about the Force.
I feel like I'm discussing this with a neophyte.
How old are you?
Originally posted by Arhael Nope. Revan got mind dominated and consumed by darkness.
Originally posted by Arhael Then broke free from Vitiate's spell but started his own agenda.
Originally posted by Arhael He failed to turn back to light himself and as the result later got mind wiped.
Originally posted by Arhael So they both failed to turn back to light. It's just Revan's different circumstances gifted him second chance.
Revan planned his own game. He was neither a lapdog of Jedi and nor the Sith.
Originally posted by Arhael
Yes, I don't understand "the concept". Because by ritual they created Anakin, not imbalance. Any source stating that it was actually their dark ritual that created imbalance? I didn't find any.
I believe it's from Palpy's novel. Granted I haven't graced its pages myself, but I've found various knowledgeable debators around these parts, quoting from it.
Originally posted by Arhael
Vader restored balance. How? By killing the Sith. Why? Because they were the cause of imbalance.
Yeah - Palpatine at that point, specifically. For the imbalance he and his Master created, and not any Sith before or after.
Originally posted by Arhael
Ones again, the darkside is not something the Force needs. It is when an evil person starts using Force to commit evil things. The darkside creates imbalance by giving evil beings the power to cause chaos.
You keep tripping over the same erroneous statement.
The Dark side does not create the imbalance we're talking about through mere chaos. The imbalance we're talking about, stems from Palpy and co. use of Sith bullshittery against the Force.
Originally posted by Arhael
After reading over 70 books I know more, than enough about the Force. Prove your points before criticizing someones knowledge.
How about proving through your posts that your above statement can hold it's water.
Which you've proven, it can't.
Originally posted by Arhael
Your feelings betray you. And I still have no clue, where you got information that it is "a ritual" causes imbalance.
So much for the 70 books' worth of book learnin'.
All the study in the world of a certain topic doesn't help, if you can't interpret it correctly.
Originally posted by Arhael
Enough old to invite you for a date 😉.
I'd probably go out with Nepthys, seeing as how he's so sweet.
(And no, I don't mean that sarcastically.)
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Revan rejected the Sith philosophy during revelation phase after his mind wipe. He again rejected Bastilla's offers of joining the Sith, even though he was in love with her. This shows his self-control. Even during his captivity on Dromund Kaas, Revan maintained great self-control despite being heavily drugged and tortured. Time and again, Revan proved that he was not the one to be controlled or manipulated for long, which is unlike the case of Count Dooku.Revan planned his own game. He was neither a lapdog of Jedi and nor the Sith.
This.
I believe it's from Palpy's novel. Granted I haven't graced its pages myself, but I've found various knowledgeable debators around these parts, quoting from it.So it is your point of view, not the fact.
Yeah - Palpatine at that point, specifically. For the imbalance he and his Master created, and not any Sith before or after.The prophecy was foretold long before that, which puts in question, when exactly balance was broken.
You keep tripping over the same erroneous statement.Palpy exists because of darkside. "Sith bullshittery against the Force" was done using the darkside by the darksider. How darkside is not responsible? Balance was restored by removing Sith as they were the source of imbalance. If it was ritual, then killing Sith wouldn't sort the problem. And it is stated that Luke is to maintain the balance, which means that it can be easily broken and ritual is not an easy thing to perform.The Dark side does not create the imbalance we're talking about through mere chaos. The imbalance we're talking about, stems from Palpy and co. use of Sith bullshittery against the Force.
How about proving through your posts that your above statement can hold it's water.We are just people with different opinions sharing our views. At least I understand that it would be rude judging someones knowledge simply because their opinion is different.Which you've proven, it can't.
Glad that I was catalyst to your small confession. )
I'd probably go out with Nepthys, seeing as how he's so sweet.(And no, I don't mean that sarcastically.)
Revan already got immense exposure to the dark side prior to meeting Vitiate. Hint: Malachor V.As if I don't know it. My point was that after being consumed by darkside with broken spell he hadn't refused it.
He had plans against the True Sith. Hint: KOTOR 2.
Revan rejected the Sith philosophy during revelation phase after his mind wipe. He again rejected Bastilla's offers of joining the Sith, even though he was in love with her. This shows his self-control. Even during his captivity on Dromund Kaas, Revan maintained great self-control despite being heavily drugged and tortured. Time and again, Revan proved that he was not the one to be controlled or manipulated for long, which is unlike the case of Count Dooku.What was offering that "Sith Philosophy? Only pointless lust for power and meaningless war and destruction. Compare it to how Palpatine, Vergere and Lumya were able to manipulate and influence. Kreya was the only Sith to sound logical and convincing in Old Republic, others were just typical "Join the darkside, it will give you power" boys. In case with Dooku he wasn't controlled or manipulated, he was convinced and then planned his own agenda like Revan.
Revan planned his own game. He was neither a lapdog of Jedi and nor the Sith.Nor the Sith? 😑 He proclaimed himself Sith Lord and Malak his apprentice. He raged war against republic in attempt to establish full control over it. He created Sith holocron, which Bane found more useful and logical, than entire Sith history. Even his soldiers were called Sith soldiers. I am sorry but I find this statement absurd. Yes, he wasn't just the Sith, he was beginner of new generation of Stih that were able to use brain.
"The shift had been the outcome of months of intense meditation, during which Plagueis and Sidious had sought to challenge the Force for sovereignty and suffuse the galaxy with the power of the dark side. Brazen and shameless, and at their own mortal peril, they had waged etheric war, anticipating that their own midi-chlorians, the Force's proxy army, might marshal to boil their blood or stop the beating of their hearts. Risen out of themselves, discorporate and as a single entity, they had brought the power of their will to bear, asserting their sovereignty over the Force. No counterforce had risen against them. In what amounted to a state of rapture they knew that the Force had yielded, as if some deity had been tipped from its throne. On the fulcrum they had fashioned, the light side had dipped and the dark side had ascended."
- The Unbalancing of the Force.
Plagueis and Sidious used a ritual to place the Dark side in ascendancy.
Originally posted by Arhael
As if I don't know it.
Originally posted by Arhael
My point was that after being consumed by darkside with broken spell he hadn't refused it.
Originally posted by Arhael
So? Does it change the fact that he was consumed by darkness?
Focus on what he did later on when he was more mature; the time of revelation and afterwards.
Can you imagine the anger of being used as a tool and by those whom you care about? You realize that you were once a big name in the Galaxy and immensely feared and now you are nothing but a pawn? This was the mental state of Revan during the time of revelation. Revan had choice: re-embrace his former identity or start fresh. He chose the latter. But the game was not over yet. The very person he loved turned to the dark side and wanted him to embrace it again. Then their was the STAR FORGE whose power would have corrupted or seduced any individual. But Revan rejected all of these temptations. This is the example you should be focusing on.
Originally posted by Arhael
What was offering that "Sith Philosophy? Only pointless lust for power and meaningless war and destruction. Compare it to how Palpatine, Vergere and Lumya were able to manipulate and influence. Kreya was the only Sith to sound logical and convincing in Old Republic, others were just typical "Join the darkside, it will give you power" boys.
This is the code that every Sith abides by:
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
Sith philosophy is about power and personal ambitions - in case you forgot. In contrast, Jedi are selfless.
Malak was true to the Sith ideals. He was ruthless and wanted to rule the Galaxy. Sidious also had similar ambitions but his tactics were different in the beginning.
Kriea was an idiot. She wanted to destroy the Force.
Vergere was manipulative but she was not the Galaxy ruling type material.
Originally posted by Arhael
Nor the Sith? 😑 He proclaimed himself Sith Lord and Malak his apprentice. He raged war against republic in attempt to establish full control over it. He created Sith holocron, which Bane found more useful and logical, than entire Sith history. Even his soldiers were called Sith soldiers. I am sorry but I find this statement absurd. Yes, he wasn't just the Sith, he was beginner of new generation of Stih that were able to use brain.
Originally posted by Arhael
In case with Dooku he wasn't controlled or manipulated, he was convinced and then planned his own agenda like Revan.
My original point was plain and simple both Dooku and Revan failed to refuse darkness after being consumed by it.Any your point is? Don't just focus on his reign as the Lord of the Sith.
Focus on what he did later on when he was more mature; the time of revelation and afterwards.
Can you imagine the anger of being used as a tool and by those whom you care about? You realize that you were once a big name in the Galaxy and immensely feared and now you are nothing but a pawn? This was the mental state of Revan during the time of revelation. Revan had choice: re-embrace his former identity or start fresh.Yes, he realized he was a tool but he, also, realized that there were good reasons for that. He didn't care about big name because he wasn't selfish, nor was Dooku. Re-embrace identity as Sith Lord for what? He saw with his own eyes what Sith were doing to Republic, how people were suffering for no reason. How cruel and heartless were Sith. Enemy was clear and distinct - Sith armada trying to dominate the galaxy.
What Dooku saw is flawed and corrupted government. Random and pointless wars rising. Countless civil wars rising inside the goverment. The whole galaxy shattering in pieces that needs a change in the way it is run.
He chose the latter. But the game was not over yet. The very person he loved turned to the dark side and wanted him to embrace it again.It only more convinced him of how wrong it is to choose darkside as he saw what it turned Bastilla into. Personally I wouldn't want my girlfriend to suddenly turn into a an angry and uncontrollable *****.
Sith philosophy have been the same since its beginning.The point is that Sidious and others I mentioned didn't explain Sith Philosophy openly in its true form. They used completely different much more subtle methods to turn person to darkside, they were giving valid and logical reasons to disillusion. When in Revan's time Sith ravaged open war and it was clear that their ways are just wrong. Kreya was the most clever Sith in the whole Kotor. She was the only one to realize that it is far more effective to become friend of Jedi and subtly convince and push him towards darkside, than blatantly give out same old stuff about power and galaxy domination, which only weak minded and selfish would fall for.
Count Dooku was controlled and manipulated.Manipulated? Yes but not on Force level. Controlled? No. He wasn't weak minded and his reasons for being Sith were very different but perfectly sound to his ideals.
I mean, Anakin' fall is understandable as he was young and reckless.Sidious exposed Old Order flaw with attachments. In this case Sidious heavily mind influenced Anakin.
Originally posted by Arhael
My original point was plain and simple both Dooku and Revan failed to refuse darkness after being consumed by it.
Originally posted by Arhael
Focused and was quite able to understand his personality from novel. And what I found is that, though now mature and very experienced, he continued making unwise decisions.
He didn't even attempt to tell Jedi Council about his nightmares and worries. Instead of attempting to persuade Council to help and possibly form up an expedition he decided to go into unknown regions by himself and without any means to track him down in case, if something happened.
Originally posted by Arhael
Even in fight with Vitiate he had to try to absorb the strongest burst of lightning with bare hands, when it would be easier with lightsaber.
Originally posted by Arhael
Yes, he realized he was a tool but he, also, realized that there were good reasons for that. He didn't care about big name because he wasn't selfish, nor was Dooku. Re-embrace identity as Sith Lord for what? He saw with his own eyes what Sith were doing to Republic, how people were suffering for no reason. How cruel and heartless were Sith. Enemy was clear and distinct - Sith armada trying to dominate the galaxy.
Originally posted by Arhael
What Dooku saw is flawed and corrupted government. Random and pointless wars rising. Countless civil wars rising inside the goverment. The whole galaxy shattering in pieces that needs a change in the way it is run.
Originally posted by Arhael
It only more convinced him of how wrong it is to choose darkside as he saw what it turned Bastilla into. Personally I wouldn't want my girlfriend to suddenly turn into a an angry and uncontrollable *****.
Originally posted by Arhael
The point is that Sidious and others I mentioned didn't explain Sith Philosophy openly in its true form. They used completely different much more subtle methods to turn person to darkside, they were giving valid and logical reasons to disillusion.
Originally posted by Arhael
When in Revan's time Sith ravaged open war and it was clear that their ways are just wrong.
Originally posted by Arhael
Kreya was the most clever Sith in the whole Kotor. She was the only one to realize that it is far more effective to become friend of Jedi and subtly convince and push him towards darkside, than blatantly give out same old stuff about power and galaxy domination, which only weak minded and selfish would fall for.
When you talk about great Sith Lords of KoTOR period; look no further then Darth Revan and Lord Vitiate.
Originally posted by Arhael
Manipulated? Yes but not on Force level. Controlled? No. He wasn't weak minded and his reasons for being Sith were very different but perfectly sound to his ideals.
Originally posted by Arhael
Sidious exposed Old Order flaw with attachments. In this case Sidious heavily mind influenced Anakin.
The new Revan novel
Spoiler:I've only read the first page, so I apologize if this is random.
pretty much removes Revan and Malak of all cupability for turning dark. They were enslaved.
Um, Revan's
Spoiler:Sabers? Quite frankly, it's impossible to say.
utter annihilation of Nyriss means that he wins the Force fight quite handily [charged up, Nyriss's lighting was fatal to Force users, and Revan turned it on her effortlessly, turning her into a charred husk).
Difference is that Count Dooku was much older and mature in comparison.Maturit and age can be a negative thing as well. When you start thinking to much and consider things on bigger scale, it creates problem. I find Dooku to have a lot of common with Jacen Solo.
Revan was not in good terms with the Jedi Council. He was forbidden to even have a student. Sadly even after Revan' role in downfall of the Sith Empire led by Darth Malak, the Jedi Council resented Revan and did not take him back.
You cannot blame Revan for not seeking help from the Jedi Council in this situation.Yes, I can and I will. You can't discard solutions because of disagreements, especially when it comes to something potentially serious. It is, also, wrong to take too much on yourself.
And he thought that by becoming a Sith Lord, he can solve these problems? How genius of him.Since Jedi did not do anything and were puppets of Counselor of that corrupted government, it suddenly doesn't look like such a bad solution.
Yes. But sooner or later, the truth would eventually come to light as the target person would embrace Sith ideals. Was Count Dooku blind to the damage done by Clone Wars?What should he see from that war? It was initiated by different governments. The war started because Republic failed to satisfy the planets that went into rebellion and to insure stability of the majority of the galaxy in general. Who is right and who is wrong?
Actually the discovery of the Sith came as a surprise to Revan. It was believed that the Sith have been exterminated during the time of Exar Kun. It was unfortunate for Revan that he had to contend with a hidden threat so big that it would trump Exar Kun' rebellion in comparison.I am talking about point, when he woke up on a ship attacked by Sith. Sith are attackers. Planet is occupied by Sith. Everyone's life is miserable because of Sith. Everything is black and white.
Traya was adept in the art of manipulation but she was far from an ideal Sith.Did I talk about Sith idealism? She is the only one who was capable to turn good and selfless person to darkside. Others just sucked in this art. Malak instead of convincing Bastilla was simply electrocuting her and bending her will, not very artful. Not surprised that Revan was able to convince her turn back to light as there was no substantial reason to hold to.
Please accept that Count Dooku had much less self-control in comparison to Revan.Nope 😛
Qui-Gon was a critic of the Jedi order too but he did not went as far as Count Dooku to register his protest.But he wasn't interested in politics and had his own conclusions.
I also blame the Jedi order of being complacent because of a 1000 years of relative peace.Me too.