Count Dooku Versus Revan

Count Dooku is outgunned. Revan will destroy him.

Also, no need to underestimate Revan in lightsaber combat either. He is very acrobatic and his precognition abilities are amazing.

Well that certainly puts him on Dooku's level. 😐

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
And that's what I said: "He chose to stay on the Light Side once he was already there, but the catalyst for his redemption wasn't anywhere remotely of his own doing." Something he himself admitted.

True. My apologies. It was the morning; I was tired.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien

To some. Others also put Marka Ragnos' powers on par with no one. Fact is, Revan's got a lot of story, and lots of gameplay mechanics, but few specifics in his combative abilities. Dooku's got much more and it's a very impressive resume.

Perhaps. Perhaps not.

Originally posted by Arhael
Any sources to support your points? So far I red over 70 novels and wookieepedia described them surprisingly reliably.

Don't be too proud of that technological terror they've constructed.

Originally posted by Arhael

This is absolutely normal for Sith and is actually part of Rule of Two philosophy.

Mhm, I know.

Originally posted by Arhael

Did he use any Sith sorcery to increase his powers like Palpatine? Did he take joy in killing innocents just for fun sake? He was ruthless but he killed and did other horrible things only, when necessary and without pleasure.

I remember a few times he seemed to enjoy punishing people.

He was also proud; self-righteousness is actually a subtle trait derived from evil.

Originally posted by Arhael

Ah? Revan is more powerful, than Malak but, not, when imbued by Star Forge.

That must be why Revan lost to him.

Originally posted by Arhael

This is basically explanation of why Revan won.

Mhm.

Originally posted by Arhael

Absorbing lightning is simply a Force technique, which is a very rare talent but does not indicate how powerful user is.

A person's capabilities do demonstrate how powerful they are.

Originally posted by Arhael

Ones again, he didn't have choice to become Sith, he was mind dominated. And he didn't have choice to abandon Sith ways, he was memory wiped. While retracing Star Forge he had choice of who he is to be. In novel he remembered everything but darkside taking over was out of question, since he had pregnant wife waiting for him at home.

Revan had Bastilla to be his anchor, and Dooku had Yoda, and knew it.

And Dooku still failed where Revan succeeded.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Count Dooku is outgunned. Revan will destroy him.

Also, no need to underestimate Revan in lightsaber combat either. He is very acrobatic and his precognition abilities are amazing.

I think it would be a close fight, but Revan would definitely overcome him.

It would be a great fight to see. 😉

Dooku, one of the very best.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Dooku, one of the very best.

👆 Good man!

I remember a few times he seemed to enjoy punishing people.

He was also proud; self-righteousness is actually a subtle trait derived from evil.

A person's capabilities do demonstrate how powerful they are.

Revan had Bastilla to be his anchor, and Dooku had Yoda, and knew it.

And Dooku still failed where Revan succeeded.

Originally posted by Arhael
Any examples, where he "enjoyed" punishing? He was ruthless and merciless. And he punished for failures to make an example out of them and to insure their competence. Very same way as Vader was Force choking mofs.

Killing and punishing with apathetic indifference is just as bad as taking joy in it.

But thank you for proving my point, in any case.

Originally posted by Arhael

It is true, when it comes to lifting objects and other heavy concentrations. Otherwise person's capabilities show how talented they are and how they can use power they have and I can give you dozens of examples proving it.
The very concept of being Jedi is not overpowering others but be in total self-control, clear-headed and in harmony with the Force. And that is why Jedi can confront enemies that seem to have limitless power.

Correct.

Originally posted by Arhael

Didn't know that Dooku had crush on Yoda...

Just imagine how dirty their porno would be. 😛

In all seriousness, I had not played KotoR in ages, and I forgot about the Force Bond thing between Revan and Bastilla.

Her staunched connection to the light helped him to not fall back to the Dark side.

With Dooku and Yoda, Yoda had made attempts to forgive Dooku and bring him back to the light, and for a long time refused to give up on the chance he could be redeemed.

When the little green Grandmaster is pulling for you - it's hard to do otherwise. 😉

Originally posted by Arhael

Their personalities and circumstances of their stories are too different even to consider what is failure and what is success.

I would say Revan is a stronger person, overall.

I haven't read the new Novel, yet. But from what I've heard, it sounds as if he really is pacifistic, after everything he has been through.

- When the hitmen cornered him, he even tried to talk them out of fighting, as a non-violent solution.

Considering they were still alive to even corner him at that point, it's a good bet he probably tried to not kill them, if possible.

The other thing that gets me, is why people don't seem to understand why Revan is called "The Heart of the Force" and how he actually is the Heart of the Force.

Revan is the Force's expression of desiring balance, and even Revan's hesitation to kill shows the Force's compassion in matters.

Though, considering how Lucas has weaved things, this obscure truth might be difficult for most fans to sort out, when looking for the answer.

A good friend of mine plays ToR and she related to me that Revan's true identity and personality seemed very unremarkable.

But I would have to say otherwise - where they could have made Revan into some Gung-ho swaggering hero with insane amounts of power at his disposal - instead they made a small, deadly humble little man, with the great ability to kill, but a heart unwilling to make the unnecessary transgression.

Killing and punishing with apathetic indifference is just as bad as taking joy in it.

But thank you for proving my point, in any case.

I would say Revan is a stronger person, overall.

I haven't read the new Novel, yet. But from what I've heard, it sounds as if he really is pacifistic, after everything he has been through.

The other thing that gets me, is why people don't seem to understand why Revan is called "The Heart of the Force" and how he actually is the Heart of the Force.

Revan is the Force's expression of desiring balance, and even Revan's hesitation to kill shows the Force's compassion in matters.

Partially Revan got much closer to what true Jedi should be. Specifically, he was above all other Jedi because he believed that for Jedi to embrace love is as important as for Sith - hatred.
But it was his flaw to believe that it is normal to use both light and darkside powers. The darkside brings unbalance. Such Force understanding reminds of Verger teachings and she was Sith. That is the main reason he lost to Vitiate. In terms of power he is in the top list but he couldn't embrace himself fully in light, when it was most needed.

Originally posted by Arhael
I didn't try to say that it is less horrible. What I mean is that Sith like Palpatie by torturing people enjoy and feed on their suffering and fear making himself more powerful that way. Dooku did that only as necessity. He was described as humanocentrist . Palpatine is evil by nature but Dooku is an opposing politician who happened to have Force powers.

Ki-Adi-Mundi believed that too, initially.

He turned out to be very wrong.

Originally posted by Arhael

Revan is simply more suited to be Jedi and much kinder person. Both Revan and Dooku wanted better galaxy but because of difference in their personalities they chose opposite ways.

Dooku succumbed to his situation, whereas Revan rose above it, albeit with some help.

Originally posted by Arhael

Nah, he is activist all his life. He went against Order and chose violent solution to end Mandalorian war. In novel he kept seeing in his dreams a planet from his erased memories and went to unexplored regions to fight evil on his own.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
it sounds as if he really is pacifistic, after everything he has been through.

Originally posted by Arhael

Could you, please, elaborate on that?

Read what I had to say about it, until the concept sinks in.

Originally posted by Arhael

That is how any Jedi supposed to behave or any kind hearted person would hestiate.

No.

Even when facing a group of foes, the Grandmaster of the Order, Yoda, did not hesitate to kill them.

Don't downplay Revan's revelation.

Originally posted by Arhael

Partially Revan got much closer to what true Jedi should be. Specifically, he was above all other Jedi because he believed that for Jedi to embrace love is as important as for Sith - hatred.
But it was his flaw to believe that it is normal to use both light and darkside powers. The darkside brings unbalance. Such Force understanding reminds of Verger teachings and she was Sith. That is the main reason he lost to Vitiate. In terms of power he is in the top list but he couldn't embrace himself fully in light, when it was most needed.

Incorrect. The Dark side does not bring unbalance - the Force needs the presence of the Dark side in the universe to remain balanced.

But the Force does what It will to further It's plans.

Dooku succumbed to his situation, whereas Revan rose above it, albeit with some help.

No.
Even when facing a group of foes, the Grandmaster of the Order, Yoda, did not hesitate to kill them.

Don't downplay Revan's revelation.

Incorrect. The Dark side does not bring unbalance - the Force needs the presence of the Dark side in the universe to remain balanced.

Now here is my explanation. Force balance - it is, when things go as they should without interference, it is natural way of life.
Jedi use Force as guidance, they trust the Force and do according to its will.
Sith on the other hand use the Force for their own benefit. They abuse it and by their actions cause huge disturbances in the Force. They don't follow the will of the Force, they follow their ambition, which results in natural balance being toppled.

Originally posted by Arhael
And again it is about different ideals, which has nothing to do with weakness. Dooku became Sith as logical conclusion, not by having his mind twisted or deceived. Dooku reminds me more about Jacen Solo, who wasn't weak person at all and was looking at things from very major scale, he was too pragmatic.

And yet Dooku knew the Sith were intrinsically evil and wrong.

At some point, it became somewhat obvious that he had been sucked in to their ways, and he died because of it.

Revan, rose.

Originally posted by Arhael

Emm, I hope you are not talking about situation with clones. There are different situations, where they have a chance to talk and where they don't. I can give you lots of examples, when Yoda gives plenty of chances before fighting but I find it pointless. Saying that Yoda is more ruthless and less pacifistic is just pathetic.
Yoda was way more pacifistic. He preferred to hide at Dagobar, when Revan always ran into deep of the fight without consulting others or against their agreement. Although, in novel there was big tension between him and Jedi council, yet, he didn't even attempt to share his worries with them and try to persuade them to form an expedition or any other solution He preferred to take this tall on his own, which kind of shows him as being reckless.
I, also, forgot to mention what he has done at Malachor V, while being Jedi, which was not only not pacifistic but was against everything that Jedi believed in.
Ah and in novel there is a cool moment, when he got his memories fully back.

I'm speaking of the events of the ToR game, which are after KotoR and the novel, where he has clearly experienced an epiphany and is seemingly more reluctant to take a life.

Also, it's "Dagobah" not "Dagobar", and Yoda only went there to escape being killed - not because he was pacifistic.

Originally posted by Arhael

Phrase to member of Sith council: "I am Revan Reborn and for me you are nothing". Very pacifistic and non-provoking!

He's just stating who he is. 😉

Originally posted by Arhael

"The presence of the dark side corrupts and destroys this natural balance, and the Jedi viewed it as their duty to restore it."
"It would later come to pass that Anakin Skywalker would fulfill the prophecy of the Chosen One by temporarily killing one of the last of the Sith in 4 ABY"
Quotes are from here: Chosen one

Now here is my explanation. Force balance - it is, when things go as they should without interference, it is natural way of life.
Jedi use Force as guidance, they trust the Force and do according to its will.
Sith on the other hand use the Force for their own benefit. They abuse it and by their actions cause huge disturbances in the Force. They don't follow the will of the Force, they follow their ambition, which results in natural balance being toppled.

I think you're overlooking some things.

The specific "imbalance" does not pertain to the Dark side's relationship with the Force in general - but of the occurrence in which Plagueis and Palpatine did their little ritual to set the Force off-keel, in favor of the Dark side.

The Dark side's presence does not automatically mean or generate imbalance within the Force - and in contrast, if the Light side were too strong in the galaxy, that would cause an imbalance.

Generally, a very evil Sith utilizing the Dark side of the Force to fullfil his own ends might cause a disturbance in the Force - that is, a ripple.
But it wouldn't cause an imbalance like your thinking.

Anakin's prophecy was to correct the imbalance to the Force that Palpatine and Plagueis had caused. That's all.

Don't confuse this with other Dark side disturbances that had happened previously in the galaxy.

^ This is where the eu is messed up. Lucas made it clear bringing balance to the force was getting rid of the dark side.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
^ This is where the eu is messed up. Lucas made it clear bringing balance to the force was getting rid of the dark side.

Right - essentially ending the Sith, once and for all.

Then they brought about the One Sith garbage, which completely defeats the point of Anakin's rise and fall, etc.

Very Retarded. Lucas has pretty much sold Star Wars out, now.

Revan, rose.

I'm speaking of the events of the ToR game, which are after KotoR and the novel, where he has clearly experienced an epiphany and is seemingly more reluctant to take a life.

The Dark side's presence does not automatically mean or generate imbalance within the Force.

Generally, a very evil Sith utilizing the Dark side of the Force to fulfill his own ends might cause a disturbance in the Force - that is, a ripple.
But it wouldn't cause an imbalance like your thinking.

and in contrast, if the Light side were too strong in the galaxy, that would cause an imbalance.

Then they brought about the One Sith garbage, which completely defeats the point of Anakin's rise and fall, etc.

Very Retarded. Lucas has pretty much sold Star Wars out, now.

Originally posted by Arhael
Nope. Revan got mind dominated and consumed by darkness. Then broke free from Vitiate's spell but started his own agenda. He failed to turn back to light himself and as the result later got mind wiped. So they both failed to turn back to light. It's just Revan's different circumstances gifted him second chance.

Sure.

Originally posted by Arhael

Still doesn't prove that he is more pacifistic, than Yoda. If you want a real example of pacifistic Jedi, then it is Dorsk 83. He knew that he was going to be killed, could easily take that person down even without killing but he just allowed being killed.

🙄

Originally posted by Arhael

Agree, the darkside presence does not cause imbalance automatically. But you said that "the Force needs the presence of the Dark side in the universe to remain balanced". No the Force doesn't need it. The darkside exists regardless of will of the Force like crime, corrupted politicizations, conflicts, wars and other negative stuff. There were more darksiders apart from Vader and Palpatine at the time, yet, it was them dominating the Galaxy, making it suffer, creating chaos and therefore imbalance.

You really don't understand the concept of the nature of the imbalance Palpatine and Plageuis had created, do you?

General suffering wrought in the galaxy by Dark siders, does not create the imbalance we're talking about.

And it was Plageuis and Palpatine that created that imbalance - not Vader.

Originally posted by Arhael

No the Force doesn't need it.

Yes, it does.

The Force needs both sides to exist and be in balance.

You really need to learn more about the Force.

Originally posted by Arhael

If it causes majority of galaxy suffering - that is imbalance.

But not the kind of specific imbalance to the Force we're talking about.

Originally posted by Arhael

That is impossible. Jedi can maximum achieve balance but they can't change people to be good, when they are bad by nature. There will always be countless conflicts and other bad things happening in the galaxy no matter what Jedi do, you can't enforce piece.

I was speaking a hypothetical.🙄

Originally posted by Arhael

However, Sith by dominating can increase galaxy suffering to enormous level, which affect balance of normal day to day life. Because of darkside such people like Plagueis and Palpatine existed, that is why I said it creates imbalance.

No, they created the specific actual type of imbalance we're discussing, through a ritual, and not by increasing suffering of people.

You really need to learn more about the Force.

I feel like I'm discussing this with a neophyte.

Originally posted by Arhael

Don't you realize that piece ones and for all is an utopia? The point of Anakins's rise and fall is not defeated, it's just nothing lasts forever.

How old are you?

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Sure.

He's actually right. Its all in Revan, the novel.

In fact, for your information the last time we see Revan in SWTOR

Spoiler:
he's raving like a lunatic and attempting to genocide the citizens of the Empire. How the mighty hath fallen.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He's actually right. Its all in Revan, the novel.

In fact, for your information the last time we see Revan in SWTOR

Spoiler:
he's raving like a lunatic and attempting to genocide the citizens of the Empire. How the mighty hath fallen.

I thought he had been cornered by those Mercs and vanished with the aid of Fold Space?

EDIT: Now he'll be like, "Ha, u see? now me gots u. Y don pecerpate me Anakim in Dagobar wit Yoda n Reven."

🙄

Originally posted by Battlemaster
I thought he had been cornered by those Mercs and vanished with the aid of Fold Space?

EDIT: Now he'll be like, "Ha, u see? now me gots u. Y don pecerpate me Anakim in Dagobar wit Yoda n Reven."

🙄