Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Dooku was Obi-Wan's superior in the command of the Force. Same may be true for Mace but this is open to debate. I have stated before that Vaapad makes Mace special and not his comand of the Force.
I was simply arguing the notion that just because Mace put Sidious on his ass does not necessarily dictate that Mace is above Dooku.
Just like Dooku defeating Obi-Wan with ridiculous ease doesn't necessarily mean he's more powerful than people like Anakin or Mace who would likely take much longer in defeating Kenobi.
Likewise Vapaad handles Sidious's ferocious attacks much better than Makashi would but that doesn't mean Mace with Vapaad would stomp all over Dooku's Makashi.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I do. However, claiming that that particular duel puts Dooku on par with Yoda is ridiculous. Yoda comfortably fended off Dooku's Force attacks and then proceeded to subdue him with his lightsaber skills. Unfortunately, circumstances did not favored Yoda during this duel and Dooku fled. Yoda actually had SOFT CORNER for Dooku. To Yoda, Dooku was a promising individual and his loss was felt.
I didn't say that they were equals. Just that for Dooku to fight him off like that says a lot about his Saber prowess considering Yoda seems to have battered even Sidious in their Saber duel (though that was not shown on screen).
And I think this "Soft Corner" thing holding Yoda back is quite speculative. Obi-Wan likely cared much more for Anakin, but I doubt anyone will argue he didn't bring his best game to their fight.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Correct. But Revan WAS the most powerful Jedi of his time.
And Dooku was second - after Yoda - of his time.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Mace is good because of Vaapad and I do not buy this Dooku = Mace argument.
It's your problem, that you don't agree with facts. Dooku beats Mace in a sparing, before he left the order. During Clone Wars, he was described, as strongest, wisest and most learned in the ways of the force Yoda's order student. He fall into dark side, and became [even more powerful Sith Lord. Clearly, his force powers were beyond Mace's.
Mace in the same time, became a master of the Vaapad. And then, he was described as Dooku equals in sabers.
Once again: Dooku hold his own against Yoda twice, hold his own against Mace and Kenobi(it's a canon, right?), and was able to destroy some people, which Mace has problem with (Sora Bulq for expample).
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Mace, during his prime, put Darth Sidious on his @ss, which Dooku could never do.
In pure saber duel? I believe, he could. Mace won, because of his form advantage (I mean, Vaapad > Juyo). He hasn't this advantage against Dooku's Makashi.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
However, Yoda is very passive in his fighting approach. But Revan is not.
Yoda wasn't passive at all.
and he is not hing resembling the whirlwind of destruction that Yoda canbecome.
This whirlwind of destruction was able to disarm Sidious, was able to deflect lightning, and was the strongest jedi in TK skill.
Yeah, very passive...
Originally posted by Nephthys
According to the new sourcebook the Voice wields the Emperors incredible power. And in the lightside version of the JK story the Emperor has time to recover. Plus the fight occured inside a strong darkside nexus and the Knight had to fight to get to the Emperor.
He had companions with him so that's unknown. I'm not saying it wasn't impressive but Revan did the same thing, against a full strength Emperor.
Originally posted by Nephthys
According to the new sourcebook the Voice wields the Emperors incredible power. And in the lightside version of the JK story the Emperor has time to recover. Plus the fight occured inside a strong darkside nexus and the Knight had to fight to get to the Emperor.
This guy would laugh at whole armies.
Though their is lot more in this encounter, if analyzed properly.
Originally posted by jdoe310
He had companions with him so that's unknown. I'm not saying it wasn't impressive but Revan did the same thing, against a full strength Emperor.
He has a utility droid with him. Lol, do you think T7 was much of a factor against 'history's most powerful dark side master'? Or his defenses?
Revan lost. Against an Emperor with 300 years less Force Mastery and experience.
Originally posted by Nephthys
He has a utility droid with him. Lol, do you think T7 was much of a factor against 'history's most powerful dark side master'? Or his defenses?Revan lost. Against an Emperor with 300 years less Force Mastery and experience.
Revan lost to the ACTUAL Emperor in the ACTUAL Emperor's body, and only when Scourge betrayed him. The Hero of Tython defeated a weakened Emperor's Voice.
According to the sourcebook and the in-game codex the Voice wields the Emperor's power. Fighting the Voice is the same as fighting the Emperor. Besides which it is still unsubstantiated that the Knight fought the Voice instead of the true Emperor.
The Knight either defeated the Emperor or the Emperor's equivalent who had 300 years extra training and dark side study on the one Revan fought. And he fought him inside an extremely potent darkside nexus and after fighting to get to him. And the Emperor(s Voice) had plenty of time to recover plus the Hero "disappated your energy saving the weak.". What the Hero did utterly eclipses what Revan did.
Besides, how do you know that Revan did not also fight the Emperor's Voice? 😉
If you want to make a Hero of Tython vs Revan thread I'd be open to discuss this further with you. Other than that I think we're done here.
Originally posted by Nephthys
According to the sourcebook and the in-game codex the Voice wields the Emperor's power. Fighting the Voice is the same as fighting the Emperor. Besides which it is still unsubstantiated that the Knight fought the Voice instead of the true Emperor.
The Knight either defeated the Emperor or the Emperor's equivalent who had 300 years extra training and dark side study on the one Revan fought. And he fought him inside an extremely potent darkside nexus and after fighting to get to him. And the Emperor(s Voice) had plenty of time to recover plus the Hero disappated your energy saving the weak."[/url]. What the Hero did utterly eclipses what Revan did.
Besides, how do you know that Revan did not also fight the Emperor's Voice? 😉
If you want to make a Hero of Tython vs Revan thread I'd be open to discuss this further with you. Other than that I think we're done here. [/B]Yup, we're done here alright.
That works both ways.
But the text makes overt comparisons between the Voice and Vitiate, from literal tone of voice to a broader statements like "to speak with the Voice is to speak with the Emperor." There is nothing that distinguishes the two and contextually, it does follow that the Voice wields the Emperor's full power.
Nephthys is correct to demand evidence of the contrary.
Oh and you're wrong. The Hero of Tython fights Vitiate in the Dark Temple. Revan fought him in the Sith Emperor's Citadel. According to the Codex, the Dark Temple:
'Hundreds of years ago, the Sith Emperor ordered the construction of the Dark Temple as a burial place for his dead and defeated enemies, "to aid them in becoming one with the Force." Little is known of what rituals the Emperor performed there, but the Dark Temple has become a nexus of powerful dark side energy, and a place where ancient weapons and ancient secrets of the Sith lay sealed away in cavernous chambers.'
The Dark Temple is an uncommonly powerful dark side nexus. I don't believe that its ever stated that Dromund Kaas is though. Even if it is, the Dark Temple surely is more powerful to warrant special mention.
Perhaps future additions to the game will shed light on the excruciatingly embarrassing outcome of their duel, but while it is reasonable to conclude that Vitiate was history's most powerful dark side Master, it is farfetched to conclude that a god would lose in spite of such overwhelming advantages against a relatively common foe. Especially in light of the fact that the cutscenes indicate that the Knight beat him fair and square.
I take issue with the Hero of Tython being a 'relatively common foe.' It's clear that s/he's incredibly powerful, as Vitiate himself notes in their duel. In light of the victory I see no reason why the Hero shouldn't logically rank with the most powerful light side masters in the mythos.
In fact, its hinted that the Hero may become the next Emperor.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I take issue with the Hero of Tython being a 'relatively common foe.' It's clear that s/he's incredibly powerful, as Vitiate himself notes in their duel. In light of the victory I see no reason why the Hero shouldn't logically rank with the most powerful light side masters in the mythos.
Incredibly powerful compared to a being purported to be a god? Even by the most liberal estimation, it's an incredibly lopsided match in Vitiate's favor. Which is the thrust of my point: either the Hero is much more powerful than the text suggests or Vitiate is being overhyped as hell.
Or
Spoiler:
it was a trap.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Oh and you're wrong. The Hero of Tython fights Vitiate in the Dark Temple. Revan fought him in the Sith Emperor's Citadel. According to the Codex, the Dark Temple:'Hundreds of years ago, the Sith Emperor ordered the construction of the Dark Temple as a burial place for his dead and defeated enemies, "to aid them in becoming one with the Force." Little is known of what rituals the Emperor performed there, [b]but the Dark Temple has become a nexus of powerful dark side energy,
and a place where ancient weapons and ancient secrets of the Sith lay sealed away in cavernous chambers.'The Dark Temple is an uncommonly powerful dark side nexus. I don't believe that its ever stated that Dromund Kaas is though. Even if it is, the Dark Temple surely is more powerful to warrant special mention. [/B]
Going to have to ignore this piece of evidence as it is quite contradictory. There was already a "dark temple" on dromund kaas so there are now two. And furthermore, you'll have to explain how the emperor can construct a temple which houses sith spirits much older than he was.
Which spirits?
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Incredibly powerful compared to a being purported to be a god? Even by the most liberal estimation, it's an incredibly lopsided match in Vitiate's favor. Which is the thrust of my point: either the Hero is much more powerful than the text suggests or Vitiate is being overhyped as hell.Or
Spoiler:
it was a trap.
Hence why hyperbolic descriptions are ignored. It's clear to me that the Knight is meant to be more powerful than the Emperor. Its that simple imo.