Maybe no. The Dark Temple doesn't suddenly disappear or cease to be a dark side nexus because of a possible continuity error that has other explanations.
Its worth noting that the codex also says that 'Although the Dark Temple grounds have always been a dangerous place for the weak-willed (the expansion of the Kaas City power grid into tunnels beneath the temple drove a thousand slaves mad)'. More proof of the Temples strong dark side energy.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Maybe no. The Dark Temple doesn't suddenly disappear or cease to be a dark side nexus because of a possible continuity error that has other explanations.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I was simply arguing the notion that just because Mace put Sidious on his ass does not necessarily dictate that Mace is above Dooku.Just like Dooku defeating Obi-Wan with ridiculous ease doesn't necessarily mean he's more powerful than people like Anakin or Mace who would likely take much longer in defeating Kenobi.
Likewise Vapaad handles Sidious's ferocious attacks much better than Makashi would but that doesn't mean Mace with Vapaad would stomp all over Dooku's Makashi.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I didn't say that they were equals. Just that for Dooku to fight him off like that says a lot about his Saber prowess considering Yoda seems to have battered even Sidious in their Saber duel (though that was not shown on screen).
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And I think this "Soft Corner" thing holding Yoda back is quite speculative. Obi-Wan likely cared much more for Anakin, but I doubt anyone will argue he didn't bring his best game to their fight.
Of-course, when Yoda goes on the offensive - he surely gets the job done, even if for a moment. But he is not a aggressive combatant and gets serious after a while. In this manner, he grants too much opportunity to his opponent.
As far as fight between ROTS Anakin and Obi-Wan is concerned; Anakin was doomed from the start. Anakin confronted Obi-Wan on his strong point and no wonder he did not succeed. Anakin had no real advantage over Obi-Wan in his understanding of the Force and this was a big drawback for him. Obi-Wan was more patient and calculative and got the upperhand eventually (Obi-Wan is also wiser and less reckless). It can also be argued that Anakin's emotions got the better of him during this duel due to his tension with Padme but he also had no clear advantage either. In contrast, Dooku could rely on his superior command of the Force to overwhelm Obi-Wan, when he wanted to. Dooku had this advantage over Anakin as well but his own foolishness or cockiness also played some part in his demise at the hands of the latter.
Originally posted by jdoe310
Lol, it's that kind of speculation which makes this specific conversation nothing more than guessing games.
There's no guessing about the fact that those quotes exist. If you want to ignore evidence then go right ahead. Don't expect me to take you seriously though. You're seeing contradictions where none exist.
Originally posted by Zett
And Dooku was second - after Yoda - of his time.
Dooku is undoubtedly impressive but he isn't so grand when considering the entire mythos.
Originally posted by Zett
It's your problem, that you don't agree with facts. Dooku beats Mace in a sparing, before he left the order.
Originally posted by Zett
During Clone Wars, he was described, as strongest, wisest and most learned in the ways of the force Yoda's order student. He fall into dark side, and became [even more powerful Sith Lord. Clearly, his force powers were beyond Mace's.
Anakin once speculated that Obi-Wan was as wise as Master Yoda and as powerful as Mace. Was he?
And maybe you also know that what once Kriea said about Revan?
It is understood that Dooku was among the elite in his time. But an elite can get his @ss kicked by another elite.
Originally posted by Zett
Mace in the same time, became a master of the Vaapad. And then, he was described as Dooku equals in sabers.
Originally posted by Zett
Once again: Dooku hold his own against Yoda twice, hold his own against Mace and Kenobi(it's a canon, right?), and was able to destroy some people, which Mace has problem with (Sora Bulq for expample).
Originally posted by Zett
In pure saber duel? I believe, he could. Mace won, because of his form advantage (I mean, Vaapad > Juyo). He hasn't this advantage against Dooku's Makashi.
Originally posted by Zett
Yoda wasn't passive at all.and he is not hing resembling the whirlwind of destruction that Yoda canbecome.
This whirlwind of destruction was able to disarm Sidious, was able to deflect lightning, and was the strongest jedi in TK skill.
Yeah, very passive...
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Incredibly powerful compared to a being purported to be a god? Even by the most liberal estimation, it's an incredibly lopsided match in Vitiate's favor. Which is the thrust of my point: either the Hero is much more powerful than the text suggests or Vitiate is being overhyped as hell.Or
Spoiler:
it was a trap.
I think that power was not an issue for Vitiate; even after getting struck down, he effortlessely caused the collapse of the entire Dark Temple. And even Satele Shan was reluctant to confront Vitiate directly. So power was never an issue.
But things were not good for Vitiate during this encounter. He was betrayed by his Wrath and arguably became temporarily vulnerable after disruption of his super-ritual and may have been not thinking very rationally like he normally does. Outcome was certainly embarrassing. But then even the strongest of all sometimes have low moments. 🙂
However, I also agree with member Nephthys on his perspective regarding power of the Hero of Tython. It makes sense to do so. This individual is afterall the 'prophesized champion of the Light' by Revan. And this individual is immensely powerful by Vitiate's own admission - this should be taken very seriously. You can say that this guy is like a one-man-army or something; possibly a refreshment in contrast to Luke.
Originally posted by Nephthys
There's no guessing about the fact that those quotes exist. If you want to ignore evidence then go right ahead. Don't expect me to take you seriously though. You're seeing contradictions where none exist.
I just pointed a clear one out for you. If you want to ignore it or rationalize, go ahead.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
What about Mace? Wasn't he regarded as second to Yoda among the Jedi? And if I am not mistaken, Anoon Bondara was also held in high regard.
Yeah, he was. When Dooku left the order.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Vaapad works against any darksider.[/B]
Not really. Vaapad - in some part - works against everyone:
I created Vaapad to answermy weakness: it channels my own
darkness into a weapon of the light
But it also works great against most of the darksiders:
Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowedboth ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center— And let it fountain out again.
It's possible, because most of the darksiders are using their negative emotions, like fear, fury, anger. It's because they're using Juyo, which is... kind of incomplete Vaapad?
Anakin could feel how the Force fed upon the shadow's murderous exaltation; he could feel fury spray
into the Force thoughsome poisonous abscess had crested in both their hearts.
Sidious was basing of Juyo + elements of other forms. Darth Maul also used Juyo:
Darth Maul was a highly skilled lightsaber duelist, trained by Darth Sidious in Juyo, which drew heavily on volatile emotions and the dark side. - Wookiepedia
In fact, Juyo was identified as a "Sith style". Anakin - Djem So master - was also using elements of Juyo (mental aspect of this form)
Dooku was different. He was using dark side more like to improve his stamina and perception.
He also was using it as a weapon - lightning for example. But his swordsmanship was free of that.
He called upon the Force, gathering it to himself and wrapping himself within it. He breathed it in and held it whirling inside his heart, clenching down upon it until he could feel the spin of the galaxy around him.
Until he became the axis of the Universe. This was the real power of the dark side, the power he had suspected even as a boy, had sought through his long life untilDarth Sidious had shown him that it had
been his all along. Thedark side didn't bring him to the center of the universe. Itmadehim the center.
He drew power into his innermost being until the Force itself existed only to serve his will.
Now the scene below subtly altered, though to the physicaleye there was no change. Powered by the dark side, Dooku's perception took the measure of those below him with exhilaratingprecision.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I do understand the dynamic aspects of conflicts. However, I feel that you are giving too much credit to the styles. Sidious is superior to Dooku in several aspects; swordsmanship; intelligence; command of the Force. And yet he failed against Mace. What makes you think that Dooku would have succeeded in Sidious' place?
Well in terms of skill I'd say Dooku is Sidious's superior in pure fencing. Sidious is however faster and stronger.
But since Vapaad seems to be particularly good at deflecting furious, aggressive and powerful strikes that gave Mace an advantage over Sidious in their sword fight. An advantage that may not hold up as well against Count Dooku. See how the Count handled Sora Bulq as an example.
And I'm not sure what your point is about Sidious having a greater command of the Force than Dooku, since Sidious didn't use any Force Tk against Mace. (The script and novel both have one force push in there which almost finished Mace off btw).
Every combatant has different strengths and weakness's. Who would have thought that replacing Dooku with Obi-Wan would be a worse scenario for Anakin after the complete stomping Dooku gave Obi-Wan??
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I understand. However, some do consider Dooku to be comparable to Yoda in combat prowess; just look at the posts of member Arhael as an example. This is a fallacy. Yoda's passiveness is the issue.
Well there obviously is a comparison or there would never have been a fight in AOTC. Let alone such an even looking fight.
That doesn't mean they actually are equals.
But it seems you and others when comparing Mace and Dooku want to keep bringing up Mace's defeat over Sidious but keep ignoring Dooku somewhat holding his own against a superior combatant to both Sidious and Mace.
However, some do consider Dooku to be comparable to Yoda in combat prowess; just look at the posts of member Arhael as an example. This is a fallacy. Yoda's passiveness is the issue.
What is real fallasy is to see things in black and white. All characters have their weaknesses and strengths. Dooku could fight both Kenobi and Anakin simultaniously, yet, got disarmed by single swing of Opress. In turn Maul casually handled Opress and both of them couldn't defeat Kenobi.
No matter how cleverly "This is a fallasy" sounds, it still has no weight as it supported by nothing more than your opinion.
Originally posted by Zett
Yeah, he was. When Dooku left the order.
Originally posted by Zett
Not really. Vaapad - in some part - works against everyone:I created Vaapad to answermy weakness: it channels my own
darkness into a weapon of the lightBut it also works great against most of the darksiders:
Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowedboth ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center— And let it fountain out again.
It's possible, because most of the darksiders are using their negative emotions, like fear, fury, anger. It's because they're using Juyo, which is... kind of incomplete Vaapad?
Anakin could feel how the Force fed upon the shadow's murderous exaltation; he could feel fury spray
into the Force thoughsome poisonous abscess had crested in both their hearts.Sidious was basing of Juyo + elements of other forms. Darth Maul also used Juyo:
Darth Maul was a highly skilled lightsaber duelist, trained by Darth Sidious in Juyo, which drew heavily on volatile emotions and the dark side. - Wookiepedia
In fact, Juyo was identified as a "Sith style". Anakin - Djem So master - was also using elements of Juyo (mental aspect of this form)
Originally posted by Zett
Dooku was different. He was using dark side more like to improve his stamina and perception.
"I know you would. I can feel your anger. It give you focus... makes you stronger."
Nothing that you say here makes Dooku special.
Originally posted by Zett
He also was using it as a weapon - lightning for example. But his swordsmanship was free of that.He called upon the Force, gathering it to himself and wrapping himself within it. He breathed it in and held it whirling inside his heart, clenching down upon it until he could feel the spin of the galaxy around him.
Until he became the axis of the Universe. This was the real power of the dark side, the power he had suspected even as a boy, had sought through his long life untilDarth Sidious had shown him that it had
been his all along. Thedark side didn't bring him to the center of the universe. Itmadehim the center.
He drew power into his innermost being until the Force itself existed only to serve his will.
Now the scene below subtly altered, though to the physicaleye there was no change. Powered by the dark side, Dooku's perception took the measure of those below him with exhilaratingprecision.
Yes, it may be possible to overwhelm even Vaapad with a very powerful Force application. However, Dooku' command of Force Lightning isn't good enough to help him against Mace' Vaapad. His chance lay in using TK.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well in terms of skill I'd say Dooku is Sidious's superior in pure fencing. Sidious is however faster and stronger.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But since Vapaad seems to be particularly good at deflecting furious, aggressive and powerful strikes that gave Mace an advantage over Sidious in their sword fight. An advantage that may not hold up as well against Count Dooku. See how the Count handled Sora Bulq as an example.
Of course, I am not implying that Dooku is not a match for Mace in lightsaber combat; Dooku technically might be. However, Mace eventually gained such a command of Vaapad that it helped him go toe-to-toe with one of the greatest lightsaber combatants in history, nullifying the advantage of even this kind of adversary in the process. Therefore, I am advocating caution.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And I'm not sure what your point is about Sidious having a greater command of the Force than Dooku, since Sidious didn't use any Force Tk against Mace. (The script and novel both have one force push in there which almost finished Mace off btw).
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Every combatant has different strengths and weakness's. Who would have thought that replacing Dooku with Obi-Wan would be a worse scenario for Anakin after the complete stomping Dooku gave Obi-Wan??
Check my explanation:
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
As far as fight between ROTS Anakin and Obi-Wan is concerned; Anakin was doomed from the start. Anakin confronted Obi-Wan on his strong point and no wonder he did not succeed. Anakin had no real advantage over Obi-Wan in his understanding of the Force and this was a big drawback for him. Obi-Wan was more patient and calculative and got the upperhand eventually (Obi-Wan is also wiser and less reckless). It can also be argued that Anakin's emotions got the better of him during this duel due to his tension with Padme but he also had no clear advantage either. In contrast, Dooku could rely on his superior command of the Force to overwhelm Obi-Wan, when he wanted to. Dooku had this advantage over Anakin as well but his own foolishness or cockiness also played some part in his demise at the hands of the latter.
Since you are talking about strengths and weaknesses; it is always UNWISE to confront an adversary on his/her strong aspects (strengths). Advantage is gained by exploiting the weak aspects (weaknesses).
Mace' command of Vaapad is his strong point. Confronting Mace at his strong point would be a gamble; success may or may not be guaranteed. Sidious attempted and failed as an example (and Sidious' proficiency in lightsaber combat needs no introduction). However, I do believe that it is possible to subdue Mace through other means. So Dooku' chances against (ROTS) Mace might be better with his command of the Force rather then his skills with the lightsaber.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well there obviously is a comparison or there would never have been a fight in AOTC. Let alone such an even looking fight.That doesn't mean they actually are equals.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But it seems you and others when comparing Mace and Dooku want to keep bringing up Mace's defeat over Sidious but keep ignoring Dooku somewhat holding his own against a superior combatant to both Sidious and Mace.