Originally posted by Juntai1. No doomsday does not.
Doomsday, like Hulk, gets stronger the madder he is.
Case in point, in Death of Superman the blows kept escalating as well, and showed no end until they KOed eachother.
Originally posted by country1000
1. No doomsday does not.
2. Thats not what happened in the Death of Superman, they were injured and tired and then both struck a final blow, not one of them got any stronger.
Superman held back for almost all of the fight, so he was punching harder in the latter stages. He said so himself.
I've always thought that [initially] Superman didn't overly exert himself, because he (being the golden boy that he is) wanted to beat Doomsday without killing him. When DD got to Metropolis, however, Supes knew the only way to stop him was death.
In their pre-Metropolis encounter(s), Superman exerted himself in stages--putting more and more into his efforts each time he engaged DD:
But by the time they got to Metropolis, Superman finally took his gloves off and figured out that he needed to kill DD for the greater good:
It's open to interpretation, but that's how I've always viewed it. /shrug
^ Superman declared that the gloves were off even before Maxima joined the fray. And he was hitting him with all he had well before that second scan. Which seemed more of an explanation to a bewildered third party (Lois) of everything that had been happening rather than a declaration of what was just beginning to happen.
Originally posted by country1000
1. No doomsday does not.
2. Thats not what happened in the Death of Superman, they were injured and tired and then both struck a final blow, not one of them got any stronger.
2) Context of the character/story suggests otherwise. He was newly ressurected and deprived of sunlight, and was getting stronger the longer he was in it. His strength also increases with anger. Superman matched him every step of the way.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Not holding back =/= putting the force in your attacks with intent to kill.
^ Superman declared that the gloves were off even before Maxima joined the fray. And he was hitting him with all he had well before that second scan. Which seemed more of an explanation to a bewildered third party (Lois) of everything that had been happening rather than a declaration of what was just beginning to happen.
Originally posted by carver9
Over tier and strength. Over Thor, Superman, Black Adam, Savage Hulk, Doomsday, The General, Orion, Captain Marvel, all of these people being in the same tier strength wise.No need to do Onslaught Hulk vs Superman since it is obvious who is stronger.
Carver i just wanted you to know that hulk is a big green booger.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Right, but you can hit someone with everything you've got, without trying to kill them--which is my point. Superman wasn't trying to kill Doomsday until they got to Metropolis. That is when he finally became 'bloodlusted'. That is when he decided that he had to break his golden boy code, and kill the enemy.
^ Superman declared that the gloves were off even before Maxima joined the fray. And he was hitting him with all he had well before that second scan. Which seemed more of an explanation to a bewildered third party (Lois) of everything that had been happening rather than a declaration of what was just beginning to happen.
So depending on your interpretation, you could say that Superman technically was holding back up to that point.
Originally posted by Galan007
Right, but you can hit someone with everything you've got, without trying to kill them--which is my point. Superman wasn't trying to kill Doomsday until they got to Metropolis. That is when he finally became 'bloodlusted'. That is when he decided that he had to break his golden boy code, and kill the enemy.So depending on your interpretation, you could say that Superman technically was holding back up to that point.
👆
i agree completely. the entire arc was an escalation of sorts by BOTH dd and supes imo. both continued to increase their power outputs relative to the efforts of the others. there is some pretty clear differences imo between a clark who goes all out and remains in character, vs a clark who goes all out and is willing to kill. against adam for example, he knows he can cut lose. that doesn't impy--to me at least--that he is using his maximum output which would be him going full out trying to kill him. there are certainly people he will go 'all out on', but there is almost no one he is willing to try and kill, and i think there is a difference there. least imo.
i also don't think dd's strength amps because of emotion, like hulk, but it certainly can change. i see it as dynmaic in the sense that he will simply adapt to match or counter the opponent. the same way the fury or nimrod (in theory) could amp their strength to combat someone who may have been stronger or who is growing stronger.
superman's strength can also vary but i don't know that i would declare it 'dynamic' in the sense hulk's is. i see supes as a battery that is generally set at a certain level. his strength can appear to change or amp because he simply has a massive reserve to call upon that most don't. he simply chooses to not access it most times. i don't see this as dynamic per se since the reserve is not limitless. he can just reach deeper than most when the need arises.
imo.
Originally posted by JuntaiThis is true. People forget that Doomsday, like Supes, is a solar battery--dare I say: an even more efficient solar battery than Supes himself.
2) Context of the character/story suggests otherwise. He was newly ressurected and deprived of sunlight, and was getting stronger the longer he was in it.
We would later find out in the Doomsday Annual that DD had been imprisoned in total darkness on earth for 200,000+ years by the time he escaped during DoS. And considering Bertron stated that DD could only store solar energy for "a millennium" (1,000 years), we can logically discern that Doomsday had long since been [relatively] powerless, and was certainly not at full power, when he began his rampage during DoS.
So naturally, the longer he was exposed to sunlight, the more powerful he became--we saw this happen.
Originally posted by leonidas👆
👆i agree completely. the entire arc was an escalation of sorts by BOTH dd and supes imo. both continued to increase their power outputs relative to the efforts of the others. there is some pretty clear differences imo between a clark who goes all out and remains in character, vs a clark who goes all out and is willing to kill. against adam for example, he knows he can cut lose. that doesn't impy--to me at least--that he is using his maximum output which would be him going full out trying to kill him. there are certainly people he will go 'all out on', but there is almost no one he is willing to try and kill, and i think there is a difference there. least imo.
i also don't think dd's strength amps because of emotion, like hulk, but it certainly can change. i see it as dynmaic in the sense that he will simply adapt to match or counter the opponent. the same way the fury or nimrod (in theory) could amp their strength to combat someone who may have been stronger or who is growing stronger.
superman's strength can also vary but i don't know that i would declare it 'dynamic' in the sense hulk's is. i see supes as a battery that is generally set at a certain level. his strength can appear to change or amp because he simply has a massive reserve to call upon that most don't. he simply chooses to not access it most times. i don't see this as dynamic per se since the reserve is not limitless. he can just reach deeper than most when the need arises.
imo.
Originally posted by Galan007
This is true. People forget that Doomsday, like Supes, is a solar battery--dare I say: an even more efficient solar battery than Supes himself.So naturally, the longer he was exposed to sunlight, the more powerful he became--we saw this happen.
👆
very important point to recall.....
Originally posted by leonidasExcept that he not only has a store, but funnells power from the sun more quickly as well depending on emotional state. And he's been found to have no limit, doing things like holding a black hole[pretty well infinite gravity, so much they bend time/space] in the palm of his hand. Still suggesting an dynamic strength, able to stretch into the unknown/limitless.
👆i agree completely. the entire arc was an escalation of sorts by BOTH dd and supes imo. both continued to increase their power outputs relative to the efforts of the others. there is some pretty clear differences imo between a clark who goes all out and remains in character, vs a clark who goes all out and is willing to kill. against adam for example, he knows he can cut lose. that doesn't impy--to me at least--that he is using his maximum output which would be him going full out trying to kill him. there are certainly people he will go 'all out on', but there is almost no one he is willing to try and kill, and i think there is a difference there. least imo.
i also don't think dd's strength amps because of emotion, like hulk, but it certainly can change. i see it as dynmaic in the sense that he will simply adapt to match or counter the opponent. the same way the fury or nimrod (in theory) could amp their strength to combat someone who may have been stronger or who is growing stronger.
superman's strength can also vary but i don't know that i would declare it 'dynamic' in the sense hulk's is. i see supes as a battery that is generally set at a certain level. his strength can appear to change or amp because he simply has a massive reserve to call upon that most don't. he simply chooses to not access it most times. i don't see this as dynamic per se since the reserve is not limitless. he can just reach deeper than most when the need arises.
imo.
As for Doomsday, Avlon posted the scan many times, I haven't been able to find it yet, but the narration directly stated he gets stronger as he gets madder.
Originally posted by Juntai
Except that he not only has a store, but funnells power from the sun more quickly as well depending on emotional state. And he's been found to have no limit, doing things like holding a black hole[pretty well infinite gravity, so much they bend time/space] in the palm of his hand. Still suggesting an dynamic strength, able to stretch into the unknown/limitless.As for Doomsday, Avlon posted the scan many times, I haven't been able to find it yet, but the narration directly stated he gets stronger as he gets madder.
Originally posted by abhilegend
You mean this
So I guess hes a cheap and weaker knockoff of Savage Hulk. It's hard to read your scan but I am taking your word for it.
Originally posted by Galan007Semantics. Otherwise, Hulk fanboys will argue that WBH isn't going "all-out" either as he clearly wasn't trying to kill Betty, just fighting her with joyous abandon. Or Thor doesn't go "all-out" with Mjolnir unless he channels enough godforce to shatter it or smacks something with enough force to have it shatter completely.
Right, but you can hit someone with everything you've got, without trying to kill them--which is my point. Superman wasn't trying to kill Doomsday until they got to Metropolis. That is when he finally became 'bloodlusted'. That is when he decided that he had to break his golden boy code, and kill the enemy.So depending on your interpretation, you could say that Superman technically was holding back up to that point.
Superman went all-out. By the time of the final clash in Metropolis, they were both dying. I agree that most people don't go all-out to the point of their own death. But that's not the connotation most people associate with "going all-out" or "not holding back." Superman wasn't pulling his punches at all. And that should be fairly obvious.
Originally posted by carver9
So I guess hes a cheap and weaker knockoff of Savage Hulk. It's hard to read your scan but I am taking your word for it.
It reads "It was unthinkable that any living thing could have exerted such force -- but as the Guardians later determined, the creature's strength fed off of its rage... and its rage burned as hot as any star!" if that helps.
Originally posted by carver9Here's the excerpt from that scan (so you can see it):
So I guess hes a cheap and weaker knockoff of Savage Hulk. It's hard to read your scan but I am taking your word for it.
However, DD's increase in power can be attributed to 3 things: rage, adaptivity, and solar energy. Those 3 elements [together] are what make him such an unstoppable powerhouse.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0I suppose writing it off like that is the easiest way to get around Superman's comment/obvious change in demeanor. /shrug
Semantics.
