Originally posted by TheHulk
So Basically Your Saying Hulk Didnt Produce Half The Ft He Did In The Dark Dimension......
I was slightly wrong, Hulk did produce half of the feat. But I have two points that I will make clearer.
POINT ONE
1. Imagine running your car into a parked car at 30mph. Now imagine head on colliding with the car with you both at 30mph. The kinetic energy would be 4 times as much (not twice as much) than if you just hit the car parked. So if she rulk stood still then Hulk would have only produced only 1/4 of the kinetic energy of the total feat. This is because the collision speed would have been half as much would as before (KE=1/2mv^2).
POINT TWO
2. The gamma energy (not from kinetic energy but from inside them) that was released from them contributed to the feat as well. That means Hulk's half of the feat was part strength and part protruding gamma energy.
In conclusion, although Hulk achieved half the feat he only did so due to both the quadrupling of the kinetic energy and because of the gamma energies that escaped both that added to the damage. And if Hulk was to try to achieve the same feat solo by hitting a non moving she rulk while using strength alone (no escaping gamma energies to help him) then he would produce less than 1/4 of the total energy of the feat.
Originally posted by Naija boyThor at his most powerful is definitely more than 10X Namor.
Show the scan of hercules oneshotting abomination. Furthermore even so it is irrelevant because the abomination while being twice the base strength of hulk was quickly surpassed when Savage Hulk got enraged hence another reason he was invalid when determing a range of strength for an enraged savage hulk.A non-holding back Thor is not even close to being 10x as strong as Namor (who has been shown to hold his own with even the likes of hercules) and so while he is considerably above him, in terms of the magnitude of strength differentials we are discussing here it holds little weight. Frankly, Even if we granted that he was ten times stronger than Namor, he would absolutely never be able to annihilate Namor as an aftereffect of a punch of his.
Moreover its not that Hulk was operating at his high end levels, its that he was operating at his regular consistent levels and the subsequent implications regarding the strength level of who he was fighting.
The point about Wendigo is very valid because even if we grant that hulk was operating at a Namor level of strength, Adding in sasquatch indicates Wendigo holding his own against at least a Namor (Note the importance of at least) level, and collossus level foe for a time. The issue isnt to prove that Wendigo is as strong as Thor, but to get a good idea of strength levels he was operating at when fighting Hulk. Holding is own against both a Namor level (granting that hulk was operating at such a level) and collossus level opponenent simultaneously will do.I am using the bottom of enraged Savage hulks range (i.e Namor level) because even taking the bottom part of that range into account, Hulk jumping from that to being able to wipe them out as an aftereffect of punches indicates an exponential increase in strength which even if we took extreme liberties with direct comparisons with Thors strength (say we accepted that Thor was 10x stronger than Hulk at this level), would enormously eclipse Thors strength level.
Hecrules is also more than 10Xs Namor. You look at their best feats you see this. You also see the fact that while Namor may hold his own he is only doing it on borrowed time. He clearly is not in their strength. I also do believe at some point Thor ahs one shotted Namor although I can not know for certain or Thor came close to it.
And once again you are assuming Hulk was at a Namor level range while performing the wendigo fights. Which you actually can't prove.
It would actually prove kind of counter to your argument that someone on Namor's level of strength would ever need someone on Colossus' level of strength to help in a fight.
Cause Namor is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Colossus in terms of strength and feats to back them.
Or to put it a better way, if a Namor can't overpower Wendigo then a Namor plus Colossus isn't going to do it either.
The strength levels are actually that big between the two.
Originally posted by h1a8
I was slightly wrong, Hulk did produce half of the feat. But I have two points that I will make clearer.[b]POINT ONE
1. Imagine running your car into a parked car at 30mph. Now imagine head on colliding with the car with you both at 30mph. The kinetic energy would be 4 times as much (not twice as much) than if you just hit the car parked. So if she rulk stood still then Hulk would have only produced only 1/4 of the kinetic energy of the total feat. This is because the collision speed would have been half as much would as before (KE=1/2mv^2).POINT TWO
2. The gamma energy (not from kinetic energy but from inside them) that was released from them contributed to the feat as well. That means Hulk's half of the feat was part strength and part protruding gamma energy.In conclusion, although Hulk achieved half the feat he only did so due to both the quadrupling of the kinetic energy and because of the gamma energies that escaped both that added to the damage. And if Hulk was to try to achieve the same feat solo by hitting a non moving she rulk while using strength alone (no escaping gamma energies to help him) then he would produce less than 1/4 of the total energy of the feat. [/B]
Hulk and She Rulk collide...no gamma energy shown.
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/204/94565109.jpg/
If you would like a closer look (remember, Hulk gamma energy is green). This is them colliding...you clearly see shockwaves (and NO GREEN GAMMA ENERGY) coming from their body. Now look at everyone melting...you see those same shockwaves hitting them.
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/8901478/Incredible_Hulks_635_003.jpg.html
They are still fighting and shockwaves are being generated from their body while the fight proceeds.
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/8901481/Incredible_Hulks_635_004.jpg.html
Still no green stuff coming from Hulks body...just the shockwaves from their punches.
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/8901484/Incredible_Hulks_635_005.jpg.html
This is also proof that they tanked the attack.
This is why from this point on I will report you. You don't know what you are talking about and try to come up with these calculations that ignore on panel proof.
Prove that it was energy or I'm reporting you again.
Originally posted by Naija boy
Firstly attributing the feat to gamma energy is just nonsensical h1a8 garbage as that is not at all what is shown on panel. As usual however he probably hasnt read the comics and even if he has he pays no mind to it so their is no need to address him any further. Now moving on to the Savage hulk variability discussion, Indeed savage hulk was a character with variable strength, however, he did have a general strength level which he hovered around frequently in his fights while enraged (id say from about Namorish to Thor level ). Not exactly determinable but save his low feats which every character has, definitely good enough to get some sort of range as he was usually portrayed as a top tier guy strength wise while enraged. Trying to cast doubt on the strength levels of the characters by backhandedly implying Hulk might have been superweak when he fought these guys is ridiculous and little more than wishful thinking. Regardless, aside from savage hulks strength, we have the strength levels of his opponents to better guage the strength difference.For instance, almost all the times Hulk encountered a Wendigo, it was able to hold its own against Hulk while he had assistance i.e Wendigo vs Hulk and Sasquatch, Wendigo vs Professor Hulk and Genis vell, Wendigo vs Hulk and Wolverine (at this point iirc, hulk was sufficiently enraged that Wolverine had lots of trouble cutting him which shows he was operating at some of his stronger levels) etc. Hence we can definitely make a good determination of the strength levels of the Wendigos that Hulk has faced and even the hulk himself in these encounters; i.e Class 100 for sure as in most cases able to hold their own for a time against an angry Savage Hulk + Assistance (Sasquatch is himself no pushover). Then we it him able to hold his own against Prof hulk who has a more definite strength level, and then we have it being able to hold its own against a Savage Hulk that even wolverine had trouble cutting. Hence being able to annihilate a character shown to be that formidable during encounters, with the mere shockwave of a pair of mid air punches hundreds of feat away indicates a humongous jump in strength that cannot be downplayed by all this straw grasping that people are trying to pass off for arguments.
I wasn't attributing the feat solely to gamma energy. I'm just saying that it contributed to the feat. The reason why we know this is because:
1. Prior to the feat the gamma energy that was coming from Hulk was doing hella damage around him while he was just standing still. Everything around him was getting fuked up.
2. The same energies was shown coming from both Hulk and She Rulk before the collision.
I'm not saying that the majority of the feat (or anything close) was due to gamma energies but only that it helped. This doesn't go against the writer's intention at all since the writer clearly SHOWED that the energies coming from Hulk were capable of doing great damage alone. Otherwise, he wouldn't have wrote that in there.
Also, most authors of classic Hulk pictured Hulk on average at the 100-1000 ton level MOST of the time. We know that he has feats far above that but going with writer's intentions, average Savage Hulk was about 500 tons. All Savage Hulk's appearances had him enraged, otherwise he wouldn't have became Hulk.
His strength was variable just like Thor's and Namor's but more so. So to say Thor's or Namor's level is misleading as well. If I was to have a non bias estimate I would say that Bi-Beast operated at no more than 1000 tons of strength and Wendigo the same. Just by reading comics of their confrontations and looking at the entire story can you tell these characters never operated at above this amount. If you disagree then you must know what the magnitude of 1000 tons can do for you (things that you can lift, collateral damage you can achieve, and others different things you can do).
Originally posted by Newjak
Thor at his most powerful is definitely more than 10X Namor.Hecrules is also more than 10Xs Namor. You look at their best feats you see this. You also see the fact that while Namor may hold his own he is only doing it on borrowed time. He clearly is not in their strength. I also do believe at some point Thor ahs one shotted Namor although I do not not for certain or came close to it.
And once again you are assuming Hulk was at a Namor level range while performing the wendigo fights. Which you actually can't prove.
It would actually prove kind of counter to your argument that someone on Namor's level of strength would ever need someone on Colossus' level of strength to help in a fight.
Cause Namor is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Colossus in terms of strength and feats to back them.
Or to put it a better way, if a Namor can't overpower Wendigo then a Namor plus Colossus isn't going to do it either.
The strength levels are actually that big between the two.
This "at his most powerful" stuff is a red herring. Im not doing a high feat comparison here because enormous high feats do no represent consistentcy. As much as you like to harp on about Savage hulks variability, Characters like Thor and Namor as well vary in their strength/durability portrayals (high and low). Hence im not looking for the highest outlier levels, im looking for their most consistent/average levels. Consequently, putting Thor at more than ten times Namor strength level can be justified solely on highest utlier feats and nothing else If i was to go the same route however Savage Hulk at his best could easily be placed at exponenitally stronger than Thor...Direct character comparisons and character interaction are much better methods and after looking at Namors bouts with hercules, to think that either hercules or Thor is up to let alone more than 10x stronger than him is ludicrous.
Regarding the Wendigo fights, There is nothing to indicate that Hulk was particularly weaker than he usually was while enraged as Savage Hulk. That is your contention and so you need to prove that. I have been VERY lenient in even starting his range all the way down at Namor level Savage hulk sstrength may have been variable(in the sense that he could get stronger) and he had low showings like everyone else, but when enraged just like any other character, he had a strength range he was consistently shown at. Thats the only reason he was consistently able to tangle with people within the upper echelon of strength. This whole idea of him sometimes being soo superweak and thereby us having no idea how strong he could have been is garbage.
Furthemore the next line of your argument is plain foolish. Namor would never be helped by someone of collossus strength level in a fight? lol wut? That is absolutely senseless. I can grant that Namor is stronger than collossus but the gap isnt so much that adding a being of Collosus' calibre would provide some sort of microscopic help in the fight. facepalm. Even granting that Namor is 3 times (which is far fetched already) as strong as Collossus on average, If he was fighting someone that was 120-125% as strong as he is, then the assistance of a collossus level character would tip the scales in his favor.. The same lprinciple thus applies in the Hulk-Sasquatch example. Furthermore Wendigo has other fights against Professor Hulk (Prof Hulk>Namor) with assitance in which he held his own as well and was even getting the better of him i daresay, further solidifying his strength level.
Your entire argument hinges on the false supposition that since Savage Hulk strength is variable (which simply means the madder he gets the stronger he gets), that his strength level in any fight he is in is a great mystery and we can therefore not use him to get any idea about the general strength level of his opponent. It is hogwash because if such ana rgument were true, Savage Hulk would be an invalid character in versus threads since he was so all over the place we wouldnt have any standardized version of the character to use by default. It is further rubbish since Savage Hulk while enraged is regularly shown at operating within the upper tier strength range which represents the better portion of his appearances. Hell I have deliberately lowballed this range just to see how far you would take this egregious thought process and yet you take it to new even lower depths. As i said before
Atrocious.Simply Atrocious. facepalm
Originally posted by carver9You clearly see the energies coming from both while they are charging each other. And you clearly know that such energy is capable of doing damage as SHOWN before. These energies just didn't disappear after the collision even if you don't the the green color. Betty's color was closer to the actual collision and the writer may have wanted the energy of the heated air to have a color distinct from just green (since both she and kinetic energy contributed). Imagine mixing 1 part light green with 2 parts of another color. You resulting mixture would be hardly green at all.
Hulk and She Rulk collide...no gamma energy shown.
Wrong scan buddy. It amazes me when you try to be deceitful and show the wrong scans. The first scan is the correct one and helps to prove my point but this one isn't the one that followed that scene but rather the one from the next comic.If you would like a closer look (remember, Hulk gamma energy is green). This is them colliding...you clearly see shockwaves (and NO GREEN GAMMA ENERGY) coming from their body. Now look at everyone melting...you see those same shockwaves hitting them.
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/8901478/Incredible_Hulks_635_003.jpg.html
I never claimed that the gamma energy did all of the damage. I said it helped as shown in the freaking comic prior. Also the the last scan you see the color of the gamma energy coming from Hulk's eyes, after Betty hits him, being overpowered by the actual kinetic and heat energy surrounding them. It almost appears that Hulk's energy is not even green at all.
They are still fighting and shockwaves are being generated from their body while the fight proceeds.http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/8901481/Incredible_Hulks_635_004.jpg.html
Still no green stuff coming from Hulks body...just the shockwaves from their punches.
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/8901484/Incredible_Hulks_635_005.jpg.html
Funny how you are the deceitful one showing the wrong scans and using scans out of context a large portion of the time.
This is also proof that they tanked the attack.This is why from this point on I will report you. You don't know what you are talking about and try to come up with these calculations that ignore on panel proof.
Prove that it was energy or I'm reporting you again.
Your logic is plain wrong. Just because you don't see green after the collision doesn't mean the gamma energies didn't contribute to the damage done. That would go against the writer's intention of ever showing the gamma energies are capable of great damage on their own.
Originally posted by h1a8
You clearly see the energies coming from both while they are charging each other. And you clearly know that such energy is capable of doing damage as SHOWN before. These energies just didn't disappear after the collision even if you don't the the green color. Betty's color was closer to the actual collision and the writer may have wanted the energy of the heated air to have a color distinct from just green (since both she and kinetic energy contributed). Imagine mixing 1 part light green with 2 parts of another color. You resulting mixture would be hardly green at all.
I never claimed that the gamma energy did all of the damage. I said it helped as shown in the freaking comic prior. Also the the last scan you see the color of the gamma energy coming from Hulk's eyes, after Betty hits him, being overpowered by the actual kinetic and heat energy surrounding them. It almost appears that Hulk's energy is not even green at all.
Funny how you are the deceitful one showing the wrong scans and using scans out of context a large portion of the time.Your logic is plain wrong. Just because you don't see green after the collision doesn't mean the gamma energies didn't contribute to the damage done. That would go against the writer's intention of ever showing the gamma energies are capable of great damage on their own.
😂 So you have a scan showing different color gamma energy coming from Hulks body besides the green we usually see?
Originally posted by Naija boy
This "at his most powerful" stuff is a red herring. Im not doing a high feat comparison here because enormous high feats do no represent consistentcy. As much as you like to harp on about Savage hulks variability, Characters like Thor and Namor as well vary in their strength/durability portrayals (high and low). Hence im not looking for the highest outlier levels, im looking for their most consistent/average levels. Consequently, putting Thor at more than ten times Namor strength level can be justified solely on highest utlier feats and nothing else If i was to go the same route however Savage Hulk at his best could easily be placed at exponenitally stronger than Thor...Direct character comparisons and character interaction are much better methods and after looking at Namors bouts with hercules, to think that either hercules or Thor is up to let alone more than 10x stronger than him is ludicrous.Regarding the Wendigo fights, There is nothing to indicate that Hulk was particularly weaker than he usually was while enraged as Savage Hulk. That is your contention and so you need to prove that. I have been VERY lenient in even starting his range all the way down at Namor level Savage hulk sstrength may have been variable(in the sense that he could get stronger) and he had low showings like everyone else, but when enraged just like any other character, he had a strength range he was consistently shown at. Thats the only reason he was consistently able to tangle with people within the upper echelon of strength. This whole idea of him sometimes being soo superweak and thereby us having no idea how strong he could have been is garbage.
Furthemore the next line of your argument is plain foolish. Namor would never be helped by someone of collossus strength level in a fight? lol wut? That is absolutely senseless. I can grant that Namor is stronger than collossus but the gap isnt so much that adding a being of Collosus' calibre would provide some sort of microscopic help in the fight. facepalm. Even granting that Namor is 3 times (which is far fetched already) as strong as Collossus on average, If he was fighting someone that was 120-125% as strong as he is, then the assistance of a collossus level character would tip the scales in his favor.. The same lprinciple thus applies in the Hulk-Sasquatch example. Furthermore Wendigo has other fights against Professor Hulk (Prof Hulk>Namor) with assitance in which he held his own as well and was even getting the better of him i daresay, further solidifying his strength level.
Your entire argument hinges on the false supposition that since Savage Hulk strength is variable (which simply means the madder he gets the stronger he gets), that his strength level in any fight he is in is a great mystery and we can therefore not use him to get any idea about the general strength level of his opponent..This is rubbish since Savage Hulk while enraged is regularly shown at operating within the upper tier strength range. Hell I have deliberately lowballed this range just to see how far you would take this egregious thought process and yet you take it to new even lower depths. As i said before
Atrocious.Simply Atrocious. facepalm
You make good points but know that other characters are variable too. For example, Savage Hulk may be at Thor's level in strength etc. but Thor may be operating at his average when they meet (prehaps 500 tons of strength as well).
The only way to know for sure is to observe the natural feats that happen in the same comic or the comics very close to it written by the same writer.
Originally posted by carver9In the last scan you posted. Look at the part when Betty is striking Hulk in the face. Look at the energy coming from Hulk's eyes. Is it green or a mixture of green with something else?
😂 So you have a scan showing different color gamma energy coming from Hulks body besides the green we usually see?
Originally posted by h1a8
In the last scan you posted. Look at the part when Betty is striking Hulk in the face. Look at the energy coming from Hulk's eyes. Is it green or a mixture of green with something else?
You said that Hulk had energy coming from his body during the impact. You then state it wasnt green energy which means Hulk has had a different color of energy emitted from his body before besides the green that we usually see. So I ask "since I missed this somewhere in the 100's of Hulk comics I've read", show me proof that Hulk can emit a different color energy from his body because the scan you are referencing, that's shockwaves coming from their punches.
I will be waiting for that scan.
Originally posted by Naija boyWhile I do agree that you can't solely go off feats there is the idea of completely disregarding them all together because you don't like a characters upper bound.
This "at his most powerful" stuff is a red herring. Im not doing a high feat comparison here because enormous high feats do no represent consistentcy. As much as you like to harp on about Savage hulks variability, Characters like Thor and Namor as well vary in their strength/durability portrayals (high and low). Hence im not looking for the highest outlier levels, im looking for their most consistent/average levels. Consequently, putting Thor at more than ten times Namor strength level can be justified solely on highest utlier feats and nothing else If i was to go the same route however Savage Hulk at his best could easily be placed at exponenitally stronger than Thor...Direct character comparisons and character interaction are much better methods and after looking at Namors bouts with hercules, to think that either hercules or Thor is up to let alone more than 10x stronger than him is ludicrous.Regarding the Wendigo fights, There is nothing to indicate that Hulk was particularly weaker than he usually was while enraged as Savage Hulk. That is your contention and so you need to prove that. I have been VERY lenient in even starting his range all the way down at Namor level Savage hulk sstrength may have been variable(in the sense that he could get stronger) and he had low showings like everyone else, but when enraged just like any other character, he had a strength range he was consistently shown at. Thats the only reason he was consistently able to tangle with people within the upper echelon of strength. This whole idea of him sometimes being soo superweak and thereby us having no idea how strong he could have been is garbage.
Furthemore the next line of your argument is plain foolish. Namor would never be helped by someone of collossus strength level in a fight? lol wut? That is absolutely senseless. I can grant that Namor is stronger than collossus but the gap isnt so much that adding a being of Collosus' calibre would provide some sort of microscopic help in the fight. facepalm. Even granting that Namor is 3 times (which is far fetched already) as strong as Collossus on average, If he was fighting someone that was 120-125% as strong as he is, then the assistance of a collossus level character would tip the scales in his favor.. The same lprinciple thus applies in the Hulk-Sasquatch example. Furthermore Wendigo has other fights against Professor Hulk (Prof Hulk>Namor) with assitance in which he held his own as well and was even getting the better of him i daresay, further solidifying his strength level.
Your entire argument hinges on the false supposition that since Savage Hulk strength is variable (which simply means the madder he gets the stronger he gets), that his strength level in any fight he is in is a great mystery and we can therefore not use him to get any idea about the general strength level of his opponent. It is hogwash because if such ana rgument were true, Savage Hulk would be an invalid character in versus threads since he was so all over the place we wouldnt have any standardized version of the character to use by default. It is further rubbish since Savage Hulk while enraged is regularly shown at operating within the upper tier strength range which represents the better portion of his appearances. Hell I have deliberately lowballed this range just to see how far you would take this egregious thought process and yet you take it to new even lower depths. As i said before
Atrocious.Simply Atrocious. facepalm
And beings like Thor and Superman are given a reason. The reason being most of the time they hold back. Also it's different for Thor and Superman because once again Hulk's core persona is that his power is dynamic. It's built into the character.
Like I said I'm pretty sure Thor has handled Namor fairly easily in the past.
Namor can shake a whole island by slamming his fits into the ground while on his back.
Colossus has no such feats that even approach that.
Namor is more than 3 times as strong as Colossus.
You keep going on about this average Hulk which doesn't exist. Yes he is regarded as a super heavy weight, but you can not deny his power is variable and does span a wide range. That is how you can have him fight someone like Thing or even Rhino and the strength gap isn't too large in the beginning to having him fight Planet level strength beings like Thor.
And you can argue with Hulk just not the way you are doing it. He still has his best feats so he does have some limit to what he has shown in comics.
You can also showcase how strong someone is who has fought Hulk by you know showing other feats of theirs besides Hulk.
For instance show Wendigo fighting some other super strong being whose power isn't variable. Show him fighting a Thor or someone else like that. It's not like Hulk is his only fight.
