Agent Smith and Neo vs Thanos and Bor...

Originally posted by the ninjak
There is nothing Neo and Smith could do to Thanos whilst in the Matrix. Thanos undertook insane rigorous punishment whilst training himself venturing through the many different planes of reality in his earlier years.

But the fact is his physical body can't die. He will just remain in the Matrix and keep fighting and evolving. The fact that he withstood Moondragon and Cosmos attacks handidly means he can withstand mental assaults on an insane scale.

I know Neo was the perfect equation born in human form. Born to die and try again. But Thanos even if it means BFR even if he is forced out of the Matrix he would simply destroy the physical world's machines surrounding him upon awakening killing the Matrix from the outside.

It's not a matter of Neo being more powerful than Thanos as Thanos is presented in the MU, it's a matter of, given the battlefield, Neo pretty much controls the terms of combat. In the Matrix reality, while Thanos/Bor would still exhibit the abilities they do in the MU, they would be translated as virtual representations, and as such, be within the ability of Neo and Smith to manipulate (as they would just be code, not their physical selves). It's the homefield advantage, not a matter of who is more powerful, ability for ability. Neo would know everything Thanos was about to do before he did it, and could simply gesture to stop it, or just move out of the way. He could also overwrite Thanos' virtual representation. Thano's 'real world' physical durability is a non-factor. In the Matrix he's just code with a superhuman ability set.

Also, the battle takes place inside the Matrix so the other points, while valid, are moot given the battle stips.

Originally posted by MF DELPH
[B]Neo pretty much controls the terms of combat... be within the ability of Neo and Smith to manipulate (as they would just be code, not their physical selves). Neo would know everything Thanos was about to do before he did it, and could simply gesture to stop it, or just move out of the way. He could also overwrite Thanos' virtual representation.

I think you're overstating this a lot. Yes, Neo can manipulate the code of the matrix to an extent. We've seen what he can actually do with it. He's never demonstrated that he can use it to depower another character. There's no reason to believe he can make Thanos less durable, slower, weaker or any of the number of things he'd have to do to make this competitive.

Neo's powers have limits.

Originally posted by Dream Stuff
I think you're overstating this a lot. Yes, Neo can manipulate the code of the matrix to an extent. We've seen what he can actually do with it. He's never demonstrated that he can use it to depower another character. There's no reason to believe he can make Thanos less durable, slower, weaker or any of the number of things he'd have to do to make this competitive.

Neo's powers have limits.

I'm not overstating his abilities, I'm just understanding the terms of the battle differently than you are. It's just a difference in interpretations. While you are correct in the fact that Neo and Smith primarily demonstrated their reality altering via breaking physical limitations (superspeed, flight, superstrength, etc) and appeared to be low level metas, those are simply displays of the underlying main contributing factor: their ability to alter the virtual reality to suit their needs on a whim. Other examples of these abilities exist. For example, in the first film Smith, without physical contact, altered Neo's form so that his mouth was sealed shut by altering his code (this was prior to Neo's 'awakening). Another example is Neo's reaching his hands into Trinity's virtual self and removing the bullets, as well as ressurrecting her real world self after her death (albeit via cardiovascular stiumlation). There's also the trademark sequence where Neo comes to the realization that he can read the code and simply dives into Smith's body and explodes him from the inside, then causes the entire building to "ripple" by flexing. Their abilities span more than simple physical augmentation, it's just that, The Matrix series being action movies, the martial arts and fighting scenes were the primary selling points. What's overlooked is that those physical abilities displayed were the direct result of the character's control over the reality.

Regardless of Thanos or Bor's MU 'real world' representations, within the Matrix all of their actions, be it an energy blast, punch, kick, flight, teleportation, telepathy, their own bodies, etc, would be, and are, for the intents of this battle, simply code and virtual representations due to being inside the Matrix. Remember the scene where the child explains to Neo that there is no spoon and he's simply bending himself. That would apply to the form of Thanos and Bor as well. It's not Thanos and Bor's physical forms they would be combatting, it's the virtual representations of said form. In the Matrix all of their abilities and form would be exploitable by Neo and Smith. In that reality Neo and Smith can play with/break the rules, and Thanos and Bor would be within their realm to manipulate. Their real world durability isn't a factor. There is no spoon, just the code representing and displayed as the spoon.

If you consider the nature of the battlefield for a second you can understand that it's not a matter of Neo or Smith being able to bypass Thanos and Bor's durability, it's a matter of their 'real world', or actual physical durabulility, being a non factor in the virtual reality. They're just code, just like everything else in the Matrix is.

I hope that makes more sense so you can understand the position of my argument.

Originally posted by Uriel005
actually in the very 1rst movie he did... completely deconstructed smith and its what he does everytime he flies or stops a bullet... Limited by imagination.

Yes, if he can jump into someone he can do that. Since he's not fast enough to do that to Thanos, it doesn't matter.

And I've already listed the applications of his power. If that's all he can do, it isn't nearly enough. If you want to assume he can do anything he wants limited by only his imagination, let's just give him an Infinity Gauntlet and forget that we've ever heard of the no-limits fallacy.

Originally posted by MF DELPH
If you consider the nature of the battlefield for a second you can understand that it's not a matter of Neo or Smith being able to bypass Thanos and Bor's durability, it's a matter of their 'real world', or actual physical durabulility, being a non factor in the virtual reality. They're just code, just like everything else in the Matrix is.

I hope that makes more sense so you can understand the position of my argument.

I understood your position from the beginning. The problem is that it constitutes a no limits fallacy.

I admitted already that Neo/Smith have low-level reality warping powers, but you seem to think that because "it's all just code" they actually have high/unlimited reality warping powers in the matrix that they just don't use.

CIS is on, right? Even if it wasn't, high-end feats are still high-end, right?

Neo is only so fast, only so strong, has only a modicum of precog, can only freeze small things in mid-air, et cetera. His powerset may be potentially unlimited, but his ability is certainly not.

I'm not arguing a no limit's fallacy, I'm arguing that since Thanos and Bor would only be code their attacks, which would also be code, would fall under Neo and Smith's ability to read, redirect, or negate, as was shown in the films.

The fact that Thanos and Bor, outside of the Matrix, are extremely durable, doesn't matter inside of the virtual reality. In the Matrix reality Neo could dive through Thanos's virtual chest and blow his virtual representation up just as he did Smith, or raise his hand and kill the motion of an incoming blast by overriding the code. Not because of being more powerful or having unlimited power, but because of the nature of the battlefield. He and Smith can also alter the code of others (as shown in the films).

I think the disconnect we are having is that, if I'm interpreting you right, and please correct me if I'm wrong, you're taking the stance that since Thanos and Bor's MU selves are 'trans' level and up, and Neo and Smith only displayed meta level physical abilities at max, that Thanos and Bor would be outside of their ability to harm. I'm countering that argument based on the nature of the battlefield itself, and that they would all just be code, which is the nature of the Matrix reality, and as such, they (Bor and Thanos) would be open to manipulation in their code forms. The fight is in the Matrix, not on the physical realm. In the Matrix there isn't any actual physical durability because there isn't anything that is actually physical. It's all virtual representations, and Neo and Smith can alter the virtual code. It's not a no limit fallacy, it's a statement on the nature of the battlefield, and the fact that they don't need unlimited ability in altering code as Thanos and Bor have no defense against even the limited abilities shown given the nature of the battlefield and the fact their real world durability is a non-factor. For example, say Thanos raises a forcefield. Given the nature of the Matrix Neo or Smith could just stick their hands through it, or dive through it, because the forcefield doesn't really exist, and both Neo and Smith know it doesn't really exist because it's simply a virtual representation of what Thanos's forcefield would be and is in fact just Matrix code they can alter (which has a precedent in the films with Neo's diving into Smith, Neo phasing his hand into Trinity's virtual self to extract the bullets and restart her heart, and Smith sticking his fingers/hands into numerous people to overwrite them).

But anyway, I've pretty much said my piece on this topic and am pretty much repeating myself at this point, so I'm just bowing out. My position on the matter has been presented.

Thanos outcode the shit out of the Matrix. He's taking over.

Wow...

Just want to give MF DELPH a big 👆
to his contribution to this thread...

After reading your point of view, I now firmly believe that Neo and Smith should win; good job!

👆

Well, I took the OP to mean that while Thanos and Bor would be in the Matrix for this fight, they aren't hardwired in the same sense that unawakened people are. Hardwired people and programs are much more vulnerable to code manipulation (Smith getting exploded, Neo losing his mouth) than people who get jacked-in don't seem to be. It makes sense, and is reinforced in the text that, there would be a difference between being part of the program and visiting the program.

If Thanos is not hardwired, Neo and Smith have to physically touch him to affect his code. You could argue that, hypothetically, they don't need to touch, but I'm going by what we've seen on screen.

So, how do they touch him? Thanos has much better reflexes than them. Maybe they could, hypothetically, freeze his energy blasts in mid air (I think their ability to manipulate code is not on that scale, thus why they never stop big things) but to do so, they would have to be able to react to his firing it off at close range. Heralds can't manage that.

All the reality warping in the world doesn't help if you can't react to an attack that will one-shot you.

I'm having trouble understanding why this isn't a colossal rage stomp for the Marvel Team.

Thanos' powers are vastly above what Agent Smith and Neo are capable off. If you pluck him up and drop him in the Matrix, he'll be just as powerful as he is now (maybe even more so considering his ego and inflated sense of self worth) because in the Matrix you can do anything as long as you believe it is possible. Thanos' default setting is above the likes of Neo and Smith... his powers would be passively rewriting Matrix code without him being conscious of it in order to replicate how his powers function in reality. Like if Molecule Man was in the Matrix he would have a vastly greater control over the Matrix than Neo did... and he wouldn't even realize it. That level of control is just what he believes is normal for him.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I'm having trouble understanding why this isn't a colossal rage stomp for the Marvel Team.

The way that I understand it, it's because Neo/Smith reality warp by manipulating code. Thanos and Bor are made of code on this battlefield. Thus, Thanos' power advantage is negated. To a certain extent, this is a fine argument. For instance, Neo doens't need to be strong to hurt Thanos. Thanos' durability is irrelevant if Neo can just dive into his "being."

[B]Thanos' default setting is above the likes of Neo and Smith... his powers would be passively rewriting Matrix code without him being conscious of it in order to replicate how his powers function in reality. Like if Molecule Man was in the Matrix he would have a vastly greater control over the Matrix than Neo did... and he wouldn't even realize it. That level of control is just what he believes is normal for him.

I was just thinking of this. I think the idea is that Neo/Smith act on the reality of the Matrix, while someone like Molecule Man, despite his greater power, would be acting on a false perception of the reality of the Matrix, they would still have an advantage. His power would still manifest in code. Whether or not that would make a "real" difference is starting to seem like a philosophical question.

Originally posted by Dream Stuff
The way that I understand it, it's because Neo/Smith reality warp by manipulating code. Thanos and Bor are made of code on this battlefield. Thus, Thanos' power advantage is negated. To a certain extent, this is a fine argument. For instance, Neo doens't need to be strong to hurt Thanos. Thanos' durability is irrelevant if Neo can just dive into his "being."

I was just thinking of this. I think the idea is that Neo/Smith act on the reality of the Matrix, while someone like Molecule Man, despite his greater power, would be acting on a false perception of the reality of the Matrix, they would still have an advantage. His power would still manifest in code. Whether or not that would make a "real" difference is starting to seem like a philosophical question.

Seems like a completely arbitrary distinction to me TBH.

Originally posted by Digi
I just don't think we can assume Thanos's inherent knowledge of technology would cause him to override the Matrix somehow. I see this as a mental battle entirely, which won't include Thanos's traditional feats.

His formidable intellect is what would keep him in the fight, but it's because he'd manifest some comparably powerful displays in the Matrix, not because of his "real world" feats. If you think that Thanos is smart enough to manipulate the Matrix to a win, good on you, I won't argue. But my opinion is that the literal gods of the Matrix would trump him in their own universe. They're fighting in computer code, and the code is written to make Neo (and thus Smith) essentially unstoppable.

Wouldn't there be a hardware and/or computing issue in this battle? The Matrix was designed to handle humans and accepts from relatively minor cheat codes. What's going to happen when Bor hits something and is supposed to level a city block? Or tries to cast a magic spell? What if Thanos tries to disintegrate Agent Smith? Do either one of them have extrasensory abilities? As far as I know, Bor's page time was pretty short lived and I don't know much about Thanos so I don't know about him. What are they going to do when Thanos can't see into the chocolate dimension anymore and Bor doesn't hear the Valkyries of Valhalla singing sweet Zep tunes? It doesn't seem like the Matrix was made to handle things like magic and whatnot.

That seems like it's either A) A dead giveaway to the Marvel team that they aren't in Kansas anymore and it gives them a much better understanding of what's going on, and thus a better chance, or B) Thanos and Bor are getting their balls clipped off and this is stupid.

Also, you know how people struggle and flop around in their internet chairs when they're doing tough stuff in the Matrix? Would Bor and Thanos blow theirs up by accident from charging themselves up in the Matrix?

Originally posted by Doctor-Alvis
Also, you know how people struggle and flop around in their internet chairs when they're doing tough stuff in the Matrix? Would Bor and Thanos blow theirs up by accident from charging themselves up in the Matrix?

Valid point.

The machines are able to restrain humans in the real world and manipulate their brain functions. I don't recall anything in the real world capable of restraining either of them. It's possible the Matrix wouldn't be able to handle the likes of Bor and Thanos manifesting their powers.

Originally posted by Uriel005
No. His being the one was not a created event. Just one that was planned for, hence systemic anomaly. Intelligence has nothing to do with being the one, it is the questioning of reality and the acceptance that the reality of the matrix is false combined with x-factors

Originally posted by Diesldude
Thanos can't die because of a virtual reality program. His avatar can die but the real thanos inside the pod can't die and so his avatar will be resurrected. Thanos is also too smart and will figure out his whereabouts and use the links which are connected to him within the pod and take over the matrix.

Humans in the pods who are unaware of the matrix when woken are = to their real selves. The people who woke from the pod are as strong as they were when they were within the Matrix. So the avatars of Bor and Thanos will have their powers within the matrix.

And if they don't, Bor knows he is a God and behave as if he was a God and this alone will allow him to bend the matrix to his will. This is without even knowing that they are in the matrix.
If he realizes that he is a God in a computer, he can wake up and destroy the hardware.
Team 2 wins easy.

Team 1 wins only if Matrix is the only reality - no computer hardware, just the virtual world. This will pit Bor and Thanos against the supreme beings of the Matrix and they will lose.

You make a lot of sense with your first part about Thanos. But death is a win on kmc, even if someone doesn't stay dead. But you are clearly off with the Bor part. Morpheus, Trinity, and others knew that the matrix can be bent. It takes more than belief to do this. You can believe you are TOAA in the matrix and still can't achieve Morpheus level.

A big thing here is if we're going by feats or assumed power sets based on what we know. (basically PIS)

If we go by what we've seen on screen (PIS) then thanos would stomp them. Like was said we see Neo just go super fast or be super strong. When Trinity was DYING Neo didn't even teleport to her. He just flew at like super sonic speeds. He didn't snap his fingers and disintegrate the bullet, he "physically" dug it out of her.

In the fight with Smith which should have been all out, we see the collateral damage of their fight be on par with like an average showing of like thor or something.

Based on that and assuming the matrix translates their powers to the matrix (as was said before, if not that'd just be stupid and this would be a stomp for neo/smith) thanos should be able to just speed blitz and destroy neo/smith. They'd just reform and come back but we're assuming death is a win right?

Now if we go by power sets and basically take out PIS, then it's at least a fight but pretty much impossible to really gauge. Now I'm pretty sure Thanos could figure out he's in the matrix pretty quickly. And belief is at least a large part of what gives you powers in the matrix. All the people they pull out get some reality warping power and that power doesn't seem to have been designed into the matrix like the power all the neo's had. So it seems like it's possible for thanos to give himself neo like powers pretty easy. We just dont know how far he could go with it.

The movies seem to say neo could control anything he wanted in the matrix though. We never see any of this but that's his potential. I feel like we don't do potential very often on this forum so I'm still reluctant to give him the win in this scenario. But I think that's the crux of the debate. Neo is suppose to be the God of the matrix, but we just don't see it. I feel other characters discussed on this forum are treated the same way if we don't see any feats to back up what the character is suppose to be capable of.

Thanos pretty much fought in the Matrix already when he entered a guy's brain and killed him

He was doing flips and shit

nutnut