Most powerful things/entities in the Marvel Omniverse

To clear up the First Fallen comedy.

Jamie was acting retarded in the First Fallen's Universe,
First Fallen never battled Jamie,
First Fallen never did anything to Jamie whatsoever,
in fact,
it was Jamie who allowed First Fallen to pull him through a portal,
in order to get Betsy to jump into the portal also,
because Jamie was prepping Betsy to kill the First Fallen:

Betsy actually stomps the First Fallen (in avatar form)

----------------------------------------

Not cause he needed her, cause he wanted to,
he's a functioning nut, he does things in the most awkward of manners,
that's his character.

I mean, why would he need her, if he's the one giving her the power to do it?

Come on now.

Betsy holds back the First Fallen (in its pure form)

----------------------------------------

Oh, here's the moment of the portal,
getting Betsy and those X-Men to jump in after him:

..................................................................................

Anyway, this is the end,
where the First Fallen supposedly killed Jamie, which is rubbish,
no such thing was depicted ever happening.

..................................................................................

Jamie with a gesture
bfrs Betsy and those X-Men out of First Fallen's Universe:

..................................................................................

And then ... then ... that's it,
nothing is shown,
no one knows what happened,
we only know that Jamie stayed behind.

One of X-Men opinionated that Jamie sacrificed himself,
but in reality, that cat has NO idea what happened:

It's confirmed that Jamie never died. He appeared in a Jesus Christ state in X-Factor... but now he's dead...

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Some people may gasp at Mad Jim Jaspers ranking in my hierarchy,
but in reality what did he actually do?

On panel his reality warp as stated on panel only actually effected most of Earth.

The guy is overrated

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Why should MJJ be ranked higher when all he did was nearly warp planet earth
before he got stomped by the Fury?

Really? 😆

Nah.

MJJ, clearly stated he created the Stars,
meh, he said he created everything.

This is because he became everything in the 616 Universe,
making him the re-creator of all things there.

Yes he does, because Mr M never makes claims without proof.

I challenge you to find a single source that claims your massive lie.

After this spankin,
no one should take you serious again.

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/madjimj2.htm

Go down to 'The Mighty World of Marvel #9'

(on the right hand side of the poker dot Jaspers with a Cane)

"Captain Britain entered Jaspers' Office to find Jaspers,

a giant at one with the Universe"

.. now stfu

------------------------------------------------------------------

The source of the corroborating bio happens to be a site
where Marvel sends their Handbook readers for corrections and further data:

(that's on the first page of EVERY Official Marvel Universe Handbook 2006 to 2011 )

**

Come back with more poppycock and I'll continue to tear a new one into you,
and with pleasure at that.

===========================

According to Marvel comics on panel evidence,
and Marvel Comics Handbooks,
and the corroborated officially sponsored Marvel site,
both Jaspers can warp Reality on a Universal scale effortlessly:

(616 Jaspers bio)

(excerpt form the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe 2006)

And of course the Jaspers' Handbook bio would claim this because well ...
we've seen BOTH 238 and 616 Jaspers rearrange an entire Universe On Panel.

(bios have incorrect data sometimes but not here, cause we all saw it)

======================

As posted before, we have the Marvel officially sponsored site
corroborating my and Marvel comics On Panel/Handbook depicted claims:

[img=http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/11726465_m18gy5.jpg]

^^^^

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/madjimj2.htm

"Captain Britain entered Jaspers' Office to find Jaspers,
a giant at one with the Universe"

==========

After MJJ was stopped by the Fury, and it was all over,
across the 616 Universe ... reality was a mess,
and the entire Reality (616) was "healing/repairing" from the Jaspers warp.

==========

We have Captain UK's Handbook bio of 06' stating:

"Roma informed Linda her anomalous presence on 616,

was preventing the damaged Reality (Universe) from fully Healing"

=======

We have Roma (On Panel) confirming that official Handbook truth above:

"Your presence is an anomaly,
that has prevented this Continuum (616 Universe) from Healing"

==================

Yet this funny guy wants to trick yall into thinking Jaspers' feat was nearly global. dur

****

One extra side note I just forgot to highlight.

In case the other fallacy is brought in suggesting Jaspers' universe was somehow another universe within the 616 reality.

Jaspers doesn't create from nothingness,
so to suggest he created a Universe withIN the 616 Universe is absolute rubbish.

Jaspers works with whatever Reality is at hand,
so,
since he was in the 616 Universe,
and he's obviously the Universe in this scan:

[img=http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/11726465_m18gy5.jpg]

As confirmed by the officially sponsored Marvel site:

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/madjimj2.htm

"Captain Britain entered Jaspers' Office to find Jaspers,
a giant at one with the Universe"

==========

Then we must agree that he did indeed re-create the 616 Universe in his image,
as he himself clearly stated here:

"I made the Stars"

"I made everything"

(MJJ re-created the Stars, ... I mean, to suggest his influence was less than global
is not ignorance, but blatant intransigence on an obscene level)

==========

swank

Sigh... I remember arguing these types of threads.

Too much work, too much opinion, too many brains.

University is over. Now it’s time to play 😄

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Your example only works for your own twisted use of logic. And not only how twisted it is, but how much details you're forgetting too. Not only did Thanos beat the entire universe, he absorbed and recreated it without the flaw that no abstract could detect.

I did not forget a thing, i only managed what was relevant. Thanos didnt recreate the universe, he merely reversed his actions and attempted to fix the characteristic of reality that kept characters being resurrected. Whilst thats something he believed he had achieved by the end of that 2004 comic, subsequent continuity has shown its something he failed at miserably. See why its an irrelevant point?

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Even if we use your logic as the gospel, it'd be like saying that manipulating Surfer's energies while he's sleeping is better than fighting an angry Surfer, easily absorbing Surfer, and recreating him, oh ya, and it wasn't just Surfer there either, it was also Galactus (Living Tribunal). Better yet, do you think Thanos with the Cosmic Cube could have actually beaten Eternity/Infinity and whatever else it would have taken for him to become an actual universe had they directly opposed him? I don't, however without their interference Thanos certainly was able to usurp the role. While different than what Phoenix is, it's not different enough to rule it out.

Fighting back or not, there comes a point where a struggle would become irrelevant when the power differential is exponential.

Realities in Marvel are closed systems

The Big Bang is all the energy that exists within a reality. Everything is derivative from the Big Bang, all energy and all matter.

The abstracts and all they are derive from the Big Bang and its power is divided up among them in different amounts. However the Abstracts combined still do not account for the full power of the Big Bang which is a manifestation of the Phoenix Force at the universal level.

So again think of the universe as a ball of energy, a great deal of which the abstracts have access to in varying amounts. Jean Grey casually with no discernible strain or big dramatic display (suggesting its far from her capacity) manipulated all that is the universe at the atomic level, transporting it intact within the white hot room proving that she wields energies ridiculously greater than those summed up in that whole ball of energy. That renders fisticuffs with Abstract Mbodies irrelevant.

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
If you think manipulating a universe from a higher dimension is greater than beating every important abstract, absorbing the entire universe, and recreating it... then well, you're certainly alone in that line of thought... among other things...

Hell, on that higher dimensional plane note, this is like saying that Reed Richards has solar system level power because he can operate on suns.
http://i45.tinypic.com/33li62o.jpg
http://i45.tinypic.com/2gv2dsi.jpg

I trust this puts Reed Richards on a cool Skyfather level. Something he couldn't do unless he was in a higher dimension and all.

You're generalizing here i'm afraid. The specific qualities of that particular plane were given as the reason for why the Reed Council were able to perform surgery on things as large as a Sun.

You can not then assume that that the same applies for the Phoenixes case when:

1) Prior to entering the White Hot Room she amputated the future HCT reality from the multiverse in the space of a sentence thereby giving precedence for a colossal amount of power

2) The subsequent "universe in the palm" feat was stated on panel to have been achieved via telekinesis. In support of this was the fact that Jean Greys bio was updated following the Here Comes Tomorrow scene to state that it was part of her power-set to telekinetically manipulate objects of a universal scale and that her limits have yet to be defined:

As far as Marvel is concerned, the official word as shown is that she manipulated the universe at the atomic level via her telekinesis. Nothing was mentioned in the scene or in the handbook to state any properties of the higher dimension aided her in terms of a power boost. That is your supposition and it is unwarranted. It could simply be the case that being in a higher dimension simply gives a macro view to perform her work, yet the raw power and the know how were all hers.

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
There's a difference between lesser characters and abstract level beings. First off, not every lesser being can teleport or go intangible.
With abstract level characters that is not how they win fights. They don't teleport heads off or rip hearts out. They blast the shit out of each other until one falls down. There is no specific tactics among this level of beings.

You're comparing the unique lesser beings to the "everybody has this but on a different level of power" abstracts. It doesn't work out.

And on this level, most of the "power" comes from being able to beat other beings. I know you haven't the proof for Phoenix beating many beings, but there's no need to keep trying to deflect this.

Youre just plain wrong here im afraid.

If the hierarchy was based purely on battle feats, i.e who has beat who then LT would be Galactus level. That is clearly not the case.

My previous example was just that an example to demonstrate my fundamental reasoning, not for you to take it literally and run off on a tangent.

Higher level beings fights can also be down to the circumstances and the outcome of such fights are not a conclusive indicator of who is more powerful. Mbodies can be destroyed simply because an abstract hadnt had it purposely built by the fractuals for conflict. Mbodies CAN be made to have access to the abstracts full power, but whether one does or not is completely down to what an abstracts intentions were when commissioning the construction of one and by the experience of the living fractuals behind the Mbodies.

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Yes, because there was so much room in the limited series for everyone to go "Wow, look at that guy with God's power!"... even if you were right, which you aren't.
And he shit on both the Cosmic Cube and IG when he got the HOTI. Not only that that, but he likened himself to be Death's equal and only a universe when he had the IG and Cube. So... you know...

The funny thing is though, that LT told Thor all about Thanos, and Thor said Thanos had the "Power Supreme" and reigns over all reality. Living Tribunal told Thor this. Not some random character.
http://i45.tinypic.com/2qvfckn.jpg
http://i49.tinypic.com/a0azde.jpg

Thanos had a conversation with Eternity where Eternity acknowledged that Thanos had God's power. As well as Thanos going into decent detail
http://i45.tinypic.com/i70kug.jpg
http://i47.tinypic.com/6tlsn6.jpg
http://i48.tinypic.com/2vv6sz8.jpg

And here's Adam Warlock acknowledging it.
http://i46.tinypic.com/fb9gdz.jpg

Quite frankly, I don't care about handbooks, so you're not getting that. But three characters aknowledging it is enough, especially when you previously only said Thanos was the only one who said it was this power.

You can care or not care about the handbooks as much as you want, but at the end of the day they are an official source and have more weight in this matter than your contradictory opinion.

Even LT's connection to Marvels Supreme Being has NEVER EVER been officially confirmed as solid fact, its just been stated that hes thought to work for a power that's greater than Eternity and the Infinity Gauntlet-

Adam calls himself the supreme being with the IGs power

Eternity also called the IG the ultimate power-

So no conclusive connection between even LT and the supreme being although its alluded to and just accepted on forums.

Eternity also calls the IG "the ultimate power" and "the absolute power" and just accepts when Adam calls himself the supreme being. So it would seem thats how Eternity regards powers that are beyond his own.

The HOTI in handbooks is just referred to as a vast power source-

Even Eternitys bio merely refers to it as a force to be reckoned with-

Officially it is NOT regarded as the supreme beings power.

The being who is consistently regarded as connected with the supreme being never acknowledged Thanos' claims and instead fought against him which would contradict his role.

So NO beyond Thanos' claims the point is inconclusive and therefore not canon.

LT as a conceptual being can only manifest physically via Mbodies, Mbodies are custom made for specific purposes and whilst they can have access to an entities full power if that is their desire, they are further limited by the living fractuals skill and experience.

Thanos thereby absorbing an LT Mbody says nothing conclusive about their comparative might. Especially when LTs Mbodies have shown they are not infallible in the past.

LTs mbody has been destroyed by a weapon cobbled together by an alternate Reed Richards-

LTs goal is to intervene in grave cosmic matters and safeguard realities. He has shown a preference for avoiding unleashing his full power for the wellbeing of reality:

Attacking Korvac with a supernova as the "ultimate punishment" he was willing to dish out before giving up and merely sealing Korvac in his reality

Talking Adam out of a conflict in order to prevent the destruction of reality

All these points indicate that regardless of LTs actual power level, there is a limit to how far he is willing to go in dealing with matters. These points proves why battle feats alone are a naive way of determining a hierarchy of power Events must be placed in context, the nature of a character must be looked at to especially when dealing with top tier cosmics who lack the battle feats of mid range/Galactus level ones.

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Even worse when you're making something out of such a common word in "Crown". And you never even proven that the White Hot Room is actually called the "Crown" as well.

And that scan says how the Phoenix connects to the host and through what body part... that scan literally proves nothing that you just said... unless your whole point was to try and prove that the Phoenix connects to a host via the Crown Chakra.

Even if you did prove this, it wouldn't mean she was utilizing God's power, it just means she's really close to God. And as an abstract she should be... but alas, failure at proving this does nothing for me.

At the end of the day, all it comes down to is Thanos claiming hes wielding the supreme beings power, a point thats not verified by any other character or official source. It all just follows a long tradition of Thanos coming across power greater than what hes known before and making assumptions. Nowhere on panel or by handbook is the point verified. Adam Warlock claimed the same thing with the IG, Eternity even acknowledged this which makes using Eternity as your evidence in supporting Thanos' claims this time around somewhat dubious.

The phrases "absolute power" "supreme power" or being a supreme being of a reality mean little when the storyline is conclusively universal in scale and set within one of a multitude of realities within a fictional multiverse. They certainly do not verify that Thanos had literally become THE supreme being.

My point was that the Phoenix Force and the parallels drawn between it and real world religious principles and it consistently being attributed a role and nature that matches up with these is more concrete than Thanos saying he'd become the supreme being whilst wielding something called the heart of the universe, within a story that affected one universe and with contradictory statements within official sources. Despite these consistent parallels and references to Jean and the Force stemming from the Crown and the Force by canon being the Big Bang from which all the abstracts derive from you will not get me stating this as fact. The connection has not been made explicitly and yet is more solid than the HOTU/HOTI one.

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb

Well, that's just one giant ass assumption.

Even if he was an M-Body, which you have absolutely no proof to say he was, he doesn't tap into the universes' power.

Has LT ever actually been stated to have used M-Bodies?

Not only that, but why would anyone use M-Bodies in this scenario? LT got every being he could get to fight Thanos. He clearly didn't go "Well gee, maybe my M-Body and every single being in the universe could take him". This was the most drastic length LT has ever went... yet he's going to use an M-Body? Give me a break.

The most powerful being to really exist that LT thinks has God's power and he sends an M-Body against him? Laughable.

And thats one giant ass shortcoming in your comic book knowledge.

Do you even know what Mbodies are for?

Your post suggests not 😬

LT has been stated to be a conceptual or abstract entity:

As such he does not have an inherent physical body.

Mbodies are how he and the other conceptual beings/Abstracts give themselves a physical presence for a purpose.

This is core Marvel comic book knowledge, you found my post laughable due to your own ignorance. Apology accepted

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
The IG got retconned to using that power. When it actually beat abstracts it used to be the one being of reality. It got retconned what? Three times. Why would we assume it's power stayed the same?

The current IG is not beating Abstracts. Hell, Infinity War IG got blasted to shit by Eternity/Infinity (mind you it was missing one gem).
And even right after IG, Eternity actually stated he was using an M-body... so there's that.

The only reason you think fisticuffs are irrelevant is because Phoenix has nowhere near the level of battle feats as other beings. Real talk.
And yes, battle feats are power showings, especially when you beat a bunch of abstracts and LT.

Thats not how retcons work im afraid mate.

The IG got retconned to using that power so we as comic book readers are supposed to treat it as if it always used that power and had that nature. THATS's how it works. Thats the very reason you have threads stating in the title or within the threadmakers introductory post if any specific characters are supposed to be taken as their PRE-RETCON incarnation because unless its stated otherwise then we go by current continuity. Similarly when you read comics where a retcon has taken place and a characters nature is changed you have to take it as if that nature was always the case. Thats the very purpose of a retcon and im shocked that you have ignorance of such a core comic book matter.

Battle outcomes/showings alone are not the final word in hierarchies. Ive explained this above. Context and nature of the beings in comparison to each other must be considered. The most powerful dont always win. It is a hierarchy of power NOT a hierarchy of battle prowess.

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
That makes no sense. Warping the universes energy just sitting there is not better than beating almost every abstract in existence. Manipulating a universe > beating LT and recreating him (along with a universe)? Not a chance.

Actually, post a scan that says the abstracts split power between them. And then tie that into Phoenix wielding all of that. I mean, this is the whole crux of your argument after all. It'd be interesting for you to prove it (this isn't me going against it btw, I just want you to prove this and tie Phoenix above it).

We do, because he did it. The guy fixed a universal flaw that no other being could detect (along with recreating all the beings he kills). Phoenix made it so that Scott and Emma were together...
Now you tell me what's more intricate... well, not you, but someone.

1) Its canon that the abstracts are all formed from the energies of the Big Bang, this is common knowledge.

2) I have shown scans that say that the realities in Marvel are closed systems and that all matter and energy from the Big Bang is all the energy that exists within these systems and is divided up and accounted for within said systems by all beings/powers

3) It is common knowledge that the Phoenix Force is the Big Bang. If you were not aware of this then get clued up.

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
There's also the fact that I'm debating HOTU having better feats than Phoenix... which is so ****ing redundant it's ridiculous.

On a superficial look at things yes mate 🙂

You are aware that not a single scan you posted says "All the abstracts derive their power from the Big Bang (Which was explicitly said to be universal by Galactus one must mention)", right?

And that you effectively sidestepped Bran's main point, which is that you seem to believe manipulating a universe is a better feat than besting all of the most important Abstracts, right?

Frankly you suck at proving your argument, whether you are right or not, you are not sufficiently competent to prove it, looking at your last posts.

Just so you know.

Originally posted by NemeBro
You are aware that not a single scan you posted says "All the abstracts derive their power from the Big Bang (Which was explicitly said to be universal by Galactus one must mention)", right?

And that you effectively sidestepped Bran's main point, which is that you seem to believe manipulating a universe is a better feat than besting all of the most important Abstracts, right?

Frankly you suck at proving your argument, whether you are right or not, you are not sufficiently competent to prove it, looking at your last posts.

Just so you know.

Nope. You suck at taking up knowledge unless it is laid out for you in the simplest of terms. That's your shortcoming. My error is in over-estimating your capacity to comprehend 🙂

If it is canon that:

1) all the abstracts tap into the universes power

2) that all the universes of marvel are closed systems and that all energy that has, does and ever will exist in a universe is summed up in the Big Bang

3) That the Phoenix Force is the Big Bang

Its not hard to see my point. More reading, less of the attitude. Im not here for you anyway kid. Run along.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Im not here for you anyway kid. Run along.

Just so you know 😱

multiversal-level condescension

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Nope. You suck at taking up knowledge unless it is laid out for you in the simplest of terms. That's your shortcoming. My error is in over-estimating your capacity to comprehend 🙂

If it is canon that:

1) all the abstracts tap into the universes power

2) that all the universes of marvel are closed systems and that all energy that has, does and ever will exist in a universe is summed up in the Big Bang

3) That the Phoenix Force is the Big Bang

Its not hard to see my point. More reading, less of the attitude. Im not here for you anyway kid. Run along.

Originally posted by NemeBro
You still haven't actually proven your case you know.

I have quite easily.

You simply saying to the contrary doesnt change that. 🙂

If you want to tackle my posts and point out my errors then feel free, however popping up like a troll and offering nothing of merit just makes you irrelevant. Do continue 😉

Well I did.

I pointed out that the scans posted don't prove that the abstracts are created from the Big Bang (I am mostly talking about the Living Tribunal here, I should mention, admittedly I probably should have earlier, since the "lesser" abstracts are to some extent facets of the universe/multiverse, them being born from it actually makes sense), and that your feat of Phoenix's isn't as impressive as defeating all of the most relevant Abstracts in the Omniverse. Like the Living Tribunal.

Really, that is the main problem, you haven't adequately tackled the fact that Thanos made the Living Tribunal his *****, the same Living Tribunal who has casually overwritten the Infinity Gauntlet, which IIRC has also overpowered the Ultimate Nullifier. Which can destroy and remake the Multiverse, a feat much better than Phoenix's. And your assertion that because LT had a body, he must be an M-Body is irrelevant, since as Mr Master showed, M-Bodies are merely physical avatars created to wield the full power of the Abstract directly (It is how Eternity for example can take action inside of itself), and the LT has had a body for all of his very impressive feats, like overpowering the IG, or manipulating two Megaverses, etc.

This response was better.

Dont know where the attitude came from before. If you disagree thats cool, it makes things fun lets debate, thats all thats needed 🙂

Originally posted by NemeBro
Well I did.

I pointed out that the scans posted don't prove that the abstracts are created from the Big Bang (I am mostly talking about the Living Tribunal here, I should mention, admittedly I probably should have earlier, since the "lesser" abstracts are to some extent facets of the universe/multiverse, them being born from it actually makes sense), and that your feat of Phoenix's isn't as impressive as defeating all of the most relevant Abstracts in the Omniverse. Like the Living Tribunal.

Really, that is the main problem, you haven't adequately tackled the fact that Thanos made the Living Tribunal his *****, the same Living Tribunal who has casually overwritten the Infinity Gauntlet, which IIRC has also overpowered the Ultimate Nullifier. Which can destroy and remake the Multiverse, a feat much better than Phoenix's. And your assertion that because LT had a body, he must be an M-Body is irrelevant, since as Mr Master showed, M-Bodies are merely physical avatars created to wield the full power of the Abstract directly (It is how Eternity for example can take action inside of itself), and the LT has had a body for all of his very impressive feats, like overpowering the IG, or manipulating two Megaverses, etc.

Your problem lies with your ABC logic that youre using. This, defeated that, which is this powerful, meaning this is that powerful 😬

Not how it works mate. You need to put things into context.

I did a post already which tackled the fact that Mbodies whilst they CAN have access to an abstracts full power, they dont all necessarily as they are custom made for specific events. So its all down to:

1) The abstracts requirements i.e is it just to make an appearance, or do battle

2) The experience and skill of the fractuals that make up the Mbodies

So defeating an Mbody does not necessarily indicate how powerful said victor is over the Mbody.

Reed Richards has destroyed an LT Mbody before

His will has been thwarted by Korvac and he showed that theres a limit to how far hes willing to engage in combat by giving up on a reality after attacking Korvac with a sun which he deemed his "ultimate punishment"

This doesnt mean Korvacs more powerful, of course not but theres a precedence for LT only going so far in combat before cutting his losses

He talked Adam out of a confrontation as he stated clearly he did not know if he was powerful enough to take the IG by force-

If LT states he is unsure of how he would fare in combat with the IG and has to talk Adam out of a reality destroying confrontation then who are we to state otherwise?

The IG is a tool. It is not a person, but an inanimate object. LT could only place his judgement on the gems after Adam submitted. Judging over an inanimate tool says nothing. A driver could run over a mechanic, but if the driver agrees to step away and not take action, the mechanic can mess with the inner workings of the car to ensure it cant be driven. Understand?

Now on to your ABC logic lol.

The UN is a device, it is not a being who stood up against the IG and was defeated. As far as we know the inner workings of the device were tampered with by Magus to make the UN backfire. The IG manipulates space, for all we know the IG couldve used its warpin abilities over that aspect to redirect the beam. The IG is definitely more versatile, but in terms of destructive power, it has never bettered the UN.

Its all about puttin things in context. Thats why that ABC logic doesnt work.

Regardless, im not saying the Phoenix Force is more powerful than LT.

Im just saying i dont believe HOTU is more powerful than LT based on the poor showing of his Mbody. The HOTI was a universal power going by its biggest feat and its name is telling to. LT is a multiversal entity, with multiversal duties which he no doubt has to attend to via his Mbodies. The defeat of an Mbody, especially one used by a multiversal entity manifesting at a universal level does not say anything conclusive. LT has been defeated, or at least had his will thwarted by less as ive shown. Going by your ABC logic, Reed Richards weapon is on par with the HOTI and greater than the IG lol.