Most powerful things/entities in the Marvel Omniverse

Originally posted by Mr Master
Oh, you mean this "current" continuity:

"This is [B]one such Universe"

A freaking alternate reality that diverged from the already existing 616?

😐 .... durlaugh [/B]

Unfortunately for you the m'kraan crystal was retconned to be multiversal in nature-

Once this retcon became acknowledged company wide this had the effect of making that one time universal story, turn multiversal and then Marvel went ahead and made it Galactus' origin and the end of the previous marvel multiverse 😄

I luv it when you get desperate, your responses get shorter and shorter. That pleases me 🙂

😮‍💨

The One Above All

Heart of the Universe. Pre Retcon Beyonder

The Living Tribunal, Infinity Being (original incarnation)

The Infinity Gauntlet (limited to influence within its own reality)
Infinites/Beyonders
Hunger

The Starbrand

Cosmic Compass - Death, Oblivion, Infinity, Eternity,

The Fulcrum

Originally posted by guy222
The Fulcrum

I wonder if current Tiamut is stronger than Scathan of the future...

I think I'm getting the gist of what GS is trying to say.

What he means is PF is literally the energies of the Big Bang itself.
It matters not where they came from (Galan, SiseNeg, Alien Entity, etc.).
He's not talking about the source, he is referring to the energies that came from the source.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Unfortunately for you the m'kraan crystal was retconned to be multiversal in nature-

Again:

Originally posted by Mr Master

On Panel!

Please, show us one depiction of the PF doing anything similar on panel.

No?

Show us the PF creating and/or destroying just the 616 Reality once.

No?

Show us the PF creating one alternate reality?

No?

... 🙁

How about a pocket reality?

... uhh, a Galaxy?

👇

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Once this retcon became acknowledged company wide this had the
effect of making that one time universal story, turn multiversal and
then Marvel went ahead and made it Galactus' origin and the end of
the previous marvel multiverse

That was an alternate reality which diverged from the already existing 616.

"This is one such Universe"

Get that shit out here dogs.

The real Big Bang, (on panel) occurring!

The real "Spark" that ignites creation (on panel) occurring!

The real embodiment of the Big Bang (on panel) occurring!

......................................................................................

The Big Bang in the flesh (on panel actually depicted)

... not talk, talk, talk, which = to hyperbole.

......................................................................................

Originally posted by Galan007

^ Or you could go with this:

Either way.

... zzzzz

Originally posted by AsbestosFlaygon

I think I'm getting the gist of what GS is trying to say.

What he means is PF is literally the energies of the Big Bang itself.

It matters not where they came from (Galan, SiseNeg, Alien Entity, etc.).

He's not talking about the source,
he is referring to the energies that came from the source.

Originally posted by AsbestosFlaygon
Yeah, I'm kinda surprised no one put him in any of the hierarchy.
He is clearly superior to any Celestial.

I wonder if current Tiamut is stronger than Scathan of the future...

I think I'm getting the gist of what GS is trying to say.

What he means is PF is literally the energies of the Big Bang itself.
It matters not where they came from (Galan, SiseNeg, Alien Entity, etc.).
He's not talking about the source, he is referring to the energies that came from the source.

good evening 🙂

jack kirby is the fulcrum

and the series is canon whether ppl like it or not

its a joy for a celestials fan like me 😄

always admired gs passion for the force and aforementioned earlier, proud to call em my friend

Thanos w/HOTU or Classic Beyonder in the histroy of Marvel have been the most powerful, nothing comes close,

As of now, I don't feel that the Phoenix has done anything on panel that warrants such a high ranking from GS--not even close. However, I have a feeling that by the time Avengers/X-Men has concluded, the Phoenix's status as an abstract-esque being might, just might, be solidified by *unarguable*(key word) on panel showings.

I only say that because the Phoenix is being hyped now more than it has ever been in the past. I doubt Marvel would be building it up this much unless they had something pretty big in mind. Either way, we'll know for sure in the upcoming months.

Originally posted by CortSether
Mr Master vs GalacticStorm threads are always entertaining.

👆

Brings back memories of when I joined, ahh the good old days...

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Like i said, its no doubt going to take this AvX series confirming the Force as the power behind HofM to get most of you guys to catch on but its all good 🙂

However i'll tackle your points regardless.

Vastly greater how? My example clearly laid out just how inferior the feat was. The abstracts are mere facets of the universe, they tap into the universes power, they are all derivative from the Big Bang. The White Phoenix manipulated all that is the universe all of their very being, all the matter and energy that composes the universe by the atomic level and materialized it in her palm within seconds. At that point, the abstracts became irrelevant, she was tapped into energies which surpass their totality, energies which make up their being anyway. The Phoenix Force empowered Jean Grey to do this, the Phoenix Force also simultaneously powers all reality as the sentient Big Bang as stated on panel and all of the Phoenix Corps.

Makes a whole lotta damn sense.

Even if we use your logic as the gospel, it'd be like saying that manipulating Surfer's energies while he's sleeping is better than fighting an angry Surfer, easily absorbing Surfer, and recreating him, oh ya, and it wasn't just Surfer there either, it was also Galactus (Living Tribunal). Better yet, do you think Thanos with the Cosmic Cube could have actually beaten Eternity/Infinity and whatever else it would have taken for him to become an actual universe had they directly opposed him? I don't, however without their interference Thanos certainly was able to usurp the role. While different than what Phoenix is, it's not different enough to rule it out.

If you think manipulating a universe from a higher dimension is greater than beating every important abstract, absorbing the entire universe, and recreating it... then well, you're certainly alone in that line of thought... among other things...

Hell, on that higher dimensional plane note, this is like saying that Reed Richards has solar system level power because he can operate on suns.
http://i45.tinypic.com/33li62o.jpg
http://i45.tinypic.com/2gv2dsi.jpg

I trust this puts Reed Richards on a cool Skyfather level. Something he couldn't do unless he was in a higher dimension and all.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Nope. Nightcrawler, or Shadowcat could conceivably f*ck up a lot of characters vastly more powerful than them due to the strategic applications of their powers. That does not mean that in a hierarchy of power they should be above said characters.

This hierarchy is about power, look at that thread title. It is [B]NOT about who would win in combat. That is what versus match ups are for. Whilst this criteria is often related, one does not necessarily equal the other. The most powerful will not always win. The weakest will not always lose a fight. [/B]

There's a difference between lesser characters and abstract level beings. First off, not every lesser being can teleport or go intangible.
With abstract level characters that is not how they win fights. They don't teleport heads off or rip hearts out. They blast the shit out of each other until one falls down. There is no specific tactics among this level of beings.

You're comparing the unique lesser beings to the "everybody has this but on a different level of power" abstracts. It doesn't work out.

And on this level, most of the "power" comes from being able to beat other beings. I know you haven't the proof for Phoenix beating many beings, but there's no need to keep trying to deflect this.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The only person who likens the HOTI power to god is Thanos himself. He made similar ramblings when he wielded the Cosmic Cube and the Infinity Gauntlet. He does it whenever he comes across what he perceives to be a supreme power source beyond his understanding. None of this has ever ever been supported or verified by other characters on panel or by handbooks.

The funny thing is though, that LT told Thor all about Thanos, and Thor said Thanos had the "Power Supreme" and reigns over all reality. Living Tribunal told Thor this. Not some random character.
http://i45.tinypic.com/2qvfckn.jpg
http://i49.tinypic.com/a0azde.jpg

Thanos had a conversation with Eternity where Eternity acknowledged that Thanos had God's power. As well as Thanos going into decent detail
http://i45.tinypic.com/i70kug.jpg
http://i47.tinypic.com/6tlsn6.jpg
http://i48.tinypic.com/2vv6sz8.jpg

And here's Adam Warlock acknowledging it.
http://i46.tinypic.com/fb9gdz.jpg

Quite frankly, I don't care about handbooks, so you're not getting that. But three characters aknowledging it is enough, especially when you previously only said Thanos was the only one who said it was this power.

Against that, Phoenix's "lol look at her being compared to Jewish words that in no way equate to God's power even taken seriously" is nothing, but I'll divulge since you went through the trouble of posting them...

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Should i call the Phoenix Force gods power because Jean Grey likened herself to [B]Tiphereth when healing the M'Kraan crystal?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiferet

Tiphereth the point at which the divine manifests itself in mortal form and also sacrifices its form for the sake of creation?

[/B]

Did you read that first scan btw? It said she envisioned herself as that, and that now her dream is twisted. That in no way shows her as being "Jesus Christ" or even that she could be percieved as Jesus.
Plus, the funny part is that after she states she envisions herself as Tiphereth, the panel uses the Jewish usage of the word which isn't when "Divine becomes mortal"

The other pages are roles. Not power. But it is impressive she fullfills this role.
She's like Jesus Christ in this way... or a well... PHOENIX

And in case her just envisioning herself as Jesus wasn't enough to prove she isn't God taken form (because visioning yourself as something proves nothing), then how about her clearly not being God taken mortal form... that kind of speaks for itself.

With HOTU we didn't have that problem. With Phoenix we know it's not the case. You couldn't read HOTU and go "Well he certainly didn't show God's power", but the same can't be said Phoenix. She/it doesn't show God's power, and she doesn't show it all the time. A few throwaway lines isn't going to combat that.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Should i call the Phoenix Forces power Gods power because the White Hot Room is called "[B]the Crown" and the Phoenix host is connected to its power through the crown?

The Crown is represented by white. (White Hot Room/White Phoenix Of The Crown) It is the realm of superconsciousness and the closest you can get to the Divine. The Crown is also represented on the body as the head and through this the consciousness meets the Divine and the Divine bends the consciousness to its will:

http://www.inner.org/sefirot/sefketer.htm

[/B]

It could be called Jesus' dick and it wouldn't make a difference. Hell, things in Marvel are called Lucifer, and Satan and Angels and whatnot. Using the usage of the word with absolutely no panel verifications to back up your assumptions proves nothing.

Even worse when you're making something out of such a common word in "Crown". And you never even proven that the White Hot Room is actually called the "Crown" as well.

And that scan says how the Phoenix connects to the host and through what body part... that scan literally proves nothing that you just said... unless your whole point was to try and prove that the Phoenix connects to a host via the Crown Chakra.

Even if you did prove this, it wouldn't mean she was utilizing God's power, it just means she's really close to God. And as an abstract she should be... but alas, failure at proving this does nothing for me.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Should i call the Phoenix Force gods power cos in Secret Avengers the firebird avatar is referred to as a [B]seraph?

(Literally means "burning ones" gods winged fiery angels who bring about Gods Judgement on Earth with a cleansing fire)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seraph

NO[/B]

Hell, calling it a Seraph actually goes against what you're trying to say... simply calling her an angel doesn't mean she's utilizing God's power or even close.

But let's just go a little farther here...
Not only have you failed to reproduce the seraph scan, but you're connecting both sets (even if one was produced) very loosely through a What-If where one set doesn't state that it's a seraph at all. It just does the role (and role is not the same power) like 30 years earlier...

And since I figure you're going to make something of the role/power thing, allow me to explain.
Power and Role aren't equal parts. You taking the role of say God doesn't mean you have the power. An example being the Skyfathers taking the roles of "God". Another example would be Galactus being stated to have a greater role than Eternity, yet Galactus' power isn't as great.
And for the seraph part, even a skyfather could clense the Earth in a fiery pit of death, yet that wouldn't raise it's power level, for an example of role vs power... like Odin has...

All of your scans taken in the way you want them would mean she is connected to God. And that wouldn't be so bad, since even Wolverine is connected to God. Even Ghost Rider is I believe "God's Wrath". However, what you failed to do was prove in any way any of these claims. You just took a throwaway line in each case and ran it to the ****ing ground.

And all of your scans taken literally do not beat "God's Power"... especially since the best statement means that God's power has taken mortal form...

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
However as you can see, the Phoenix Force in continuity, on multiple occasions has faaaar more reason to be likened to Gods power than the HOTI.

Also, her being likened to God's power was throwaway lines that in some cases were overwritten in the same page, and her role was likened to God's power, not her power.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Not at all. LT as stated is a conceptual being that utilizes M bodies. Theres one LT entity, however there are many LT m-bodies that he can employ.

The LT Mbody has shown its not infallible.

Its attack has been thwarted by Korvac.

Its power has been re-directed at it by Reed Richards destroying it.

Its Mbody was absorbed by Thanos.

Beating an Mbody or representation is not the same as tackling the entity in its entirety. Beings like LT and the Phoenix are multiversal as stated on panel, a universal manifestation of them does not represent all that they are. They deal with issues on a multiversal scale.

Even if he was an M-Body, which you have absolutely no proof to say he was, he doesn't tap into the universes' power.

The "M-Body" attack wasn't thwarted by Korvac. When all you do is blow up a sun, and accomplish this... well it's hard to get thwarted. It's like saying Nova thwarted Galactus' attack because he destroyed the Annihilation Wave but failed to destroy him.
Why LT figured a sun going nova could defeat Korvac is beyond me... shoddy writing.

It displaced them. Scan saying it destroyed them?

Has LT ever actually been stated to have used M-Bodies?

Not only that, but why would anyone use M-Bodies in this scenario? LT got every being he could get to fight Thanos. He clearly didn't go "Well gee, maybe my M-Body and every single being in the universe could take him". This was the most drastic length LT has ever went... yet he's going to use an M-Body? Give me a break.

The most powerful being to really exist that LT thinks has God's power and he sends an M-Body against him? Laughable.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Irrelevant when you wield considerably greater powers than all that is contained within the universe. The IG by current continuity taps into the energies of the Big Bang and it absolutely stomped all of the abstracts fighting back merely cos it had greater access to said power. White Phoenix taps into those same energies but again on a greater scale as the Phoenix host and she manipulated the whole universe in her palm at an atomic level, rendering little fisticuffs within the little universe irrelevant. 😬

The current IG is not beating Abstracts. Hell, Infinity War IG got blasted to shit by Eternity/Infinity (mind you it was missing one gem).
And even right after IG, Eternity actually stated he was using an M-body... so there's that.

The only reason you think fisticuffs are irrelevant is because Phoenix has nowhere near the level of battle feats as other beings. Real talk.
And yes, battle feats are power showings, especially when you beat a bunch of abstracts and LT.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Given the considerably greater energy output it would take to manipulate an entire universe at the atomic level as opposed to fighting fragments of said universe then it stands to reason that if it was her desire the WP could completely stomp the abstracts. No single abstract wields the entire universes power, they all have it divided between them. She showed exponentially greater power than any of them individually or as a whole.

We'll never know if Thanos could have done the same thing. However given he never displayed anything as high level or as intricate as that, he gets ranked below. Simple.

Actually, post a scan that says the abstracts split power between them. And then tie that into Phoenix wielding all of that. I mean, this is the whole crux of your argument after all. It'd be interesting for you to prove it (this isn't me going against it btw, I just want you to prove this and tie Phoenix above it).

We do, because he did it. The guy fixed a universal flaw that no other being could detect (along with recreating all the beings he kills). Phoenix made it so that Scott and Emma were together...
Now you tell me what's more intricate... well, not you, but someone.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
He warped a place of residence, not the entity itself. Jamie Braddock was later pitted against the First Fallen said to be the Phoenixes counterpart and got stomped. I'd place Jamie Braddock below the abstracts.

"Should i call the Phoenix Forces power Gods power because the White Hot Room is called "the Crown" and the Phoenix host is connected to its power through the crown?

The Crown is represented by white. (White Hot Room/White Phoenix Of The Crown) It is the realm of superconsciousness and the closest you can get to the Divine. The Crown is also represented on the body as the head and through this the consciousness meets the Divine and the Divine bends the consciousness to its will:"

Good old picking and choosing. It was certainly impressive earlier in your post, yet now it's not? Oh you

Oh, Jamie Braddock got stomped by the First Fallen? Because the First Fallen hasn't been seen since, and Jamie Braddock... well, let's just say he was very much alive. So...

But I agree with him being below the abstracts. Just wanted to bring that up since it pertains to Phoenix.

---

I know I did nothing to convince you (you and MM like to argue afterall), and I haven't the time to infinite debate you (since this post took long enough), so I acknowledge you're likely going to respond with a bevy of posts. However, I just wanted to get that out since it was bugging me, and figure it should convince anyone else, besides you.

There's also the fact that I'm debating HOTU having better feats than Phoenix... which is so ****ing redundant it's ridiculous.

poor jaime he's dead

dammit

😄

Originally posted by guy222
poor jaime he's dead

dammit

😄

I don't get why Brian/Betsy can simply kill him like that now...

the whole goat monk omni god stuff was horrible

yes it was

lets see who remembers this guy

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix2/mrtermineusmt.htm

Originally posted by guy222
the whole goat monk omni god stuff was horrible

yes it was

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb

Has LT ever actually been stated to have used M-Bodies?

Not only that, but why would anyone use M-Bodies in this scenario? LT got
every being he could get to fight Thanos. He clearly didn't go "Well gee,
maybe my M-Body and every single being in the universe could take him".
This was the most drastic length LT has ever went... yet he's going to use an
M-Body? Give me a break.

The most powerful being to really exist that LT thinks has God's power
and he sends an M-Body against him? Laughable.

M-body's possess the full power of the Concept

(Anthro runs the M-body department)

That's the only information we have
concerning the amount of power an M-body houses.

Anthropomorpho's bio:

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/anthropo.htm

powers & abilities:

"Like all natives of his realm (Fractals that form M-bodies)
He (Anthro/M-body) can assume a physical form for non-physical or abstract beings.
These forms have access to the full power of the original being"

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb

Oh, Jamie Braddock got stomped by the First Fallen?
Because the First Fallen hasn't been seen since,
and Jamie Braddock... well, let's just say he was very much alive. So...

We do know though that Jamie seemed in control of all that jazz upto that point (scans in a minute)