Chaos King vs Lucifer Morningstar

Originally posted by Sundipped
At first you were on his side now he's a idiot. Flopzop strikes again. Those examples are moot because Thor Annual was under a different writer. We'll stick with the idiot characterization though because Gruenwald had Malestrom tank a IG blast even though it was explained that Thanos may not be adept in its use.

Still speculation on your part to think Oblivion was lying in the annual. The instances you speak of that happened before that are irrelevant. Remember, Gruenwald's a idiot.

Still no proof that he can transverse the infinite gulf that Big G was talking about. CK traveled [B]WITHIN the multiverse. The continuum is located OUTSIDE of the multiverse. Far outside. So far that Galactus was straining to keep the portal open. You're beating a dead horse telling me what I already know about his bfr to the continuum. As long as you understand that he was forced and didn't go under his own will, that's all that matters.

Death fleeing from an at the time, subpar CK, is what's absurd. And how the hell is CK (a being with 0 battle feats against any certified top tier cosmic who got his teeth knocked out by an artifacts powered Herc) >>>ANYabstract below LT? Don't make me laugh. 😂 And before you bring up CK destroying 98+% of the multiverse (via one dimension at a time) and Herc restoring it, keep in mind that does not equate to automatically having the power to best a high end cosmic or abstract battle wise. Slow multiversal destruction/restoration=/=ability to sh!tstomp high end abstracts in a battle setting.

The scan states they were equal....which makes that baffoon Malestrom look even more horrible considering he had all those amps but no cosmic awareness at all which was the explanation for his defeat. What good is all that power if one can't utilize it properly? Dude wound up getting consumed by the Quantum Bands. That was Malestroms phuk up and doesn't tarnish Oblivions status at all no matter how much you attempt to lowball him.

You can reply to this if you want but I don't care to debate it any further. We're entering redundancy and I know you'll repeat the same thing again. [/B]

Galactus 'straining' to keep the portal open has nothing to do with it's complexity or location in regard to the rest of the multiverse. He was straining because he wasn't at his best, SuperGod Hercules pulled him away right before he was about to eat a planet at the beginning of Chaos War. Surfer even mentions this to Hercules. He was hungry throughout the whole arc.

As to the rest of your post, it's not use responding because you can't even get basic facts regarding what went on during CiC right. For example : Maelstrom DID have cosmic awareness that was one of the first amps he went after.

Originally posted by leonidas
so it's...."everything"? all reality? all universes? all creation? there was a scan that showed it was a collection of all alternates as well. hmm. well, glad we agree. 👆

his brother contained the power. lucifer shaped it. lucifer has defeated michael in battle. the original 'creation' is an omniverse, as shown through the vertigo line. it contains universes, dimensions, realities, and an infinite variety of alternate versions of the 'prime' universes, some where there are no heroes at all. the endless concepts exist across those universes. all of them. lucifer's creation was intended to be a mirror of sorts, only without god ruling it. lucifer makes the endless s*** themselves, even death. THAT is power, both displayed and implied. ck on the other hand? any proof yet that ck OR herc was definitively greater than eternity.....? still waiting on that. the scan where eternity talks about him SURRREEEE makes it sound like they're about equal.....

you're not hearing me somehow. how many times do i have to agree he absorbed most of the prime multiverse? it makes perfect sense to me. and in so doing he apparently equaled eternity. that ALSO makes perfect sense to me. a multiverse is a simple collection of dimensions and universes and realities and pockets and what have you. infinite on a smaller scale than the omniverse. so? tell me how i refuse to accept anything again? 😕

it seems in the arc though, we are intended to believe that ck absorbed....nearly EVERYTHING. but now you're saying he didn't. that the omniverse was fine. so his power was limited to a single multiverse--almost--and what did it apparently get him? eternity level. that all seems pretty darn clear to anyone with some reading comp skills. and to me, it makes utter and perfect sense.

YOU'RE the one claiming ck>>eternity (without proof beyond what you want to call your own 'common sense' i guess....and the ambiguous death scene) you're the one who can't explain how something can absorb 98% of the multiverse but still only be roughly equal to eternity. you're the one who has no proof of how powerful herc is compared to.....anyone of substance, yet continues to demand proof of who lucifer fought. and now, YOU'RE the one who admits that the arc didn't even mean what it SAID it means! ck wasn't REALLY absorbing "everything", all "reality". he was only ltd to ONE multiverse. why stop there? what makes you think it wasn't the omniverse the writer intended? common sense? tsk. you're ham-handedly and transparently forcing an ambiguous feat, performed by a character who never battled anyone of established power levels, to mean what you WANT it to mean, because otherwise it's not as great as you'd like. you throw around multiverse like the term actually has an immutable definition and isn't subject to a writer's whims, and to reinforce the point, your proof: you tell us ck was more powerful than ANOTHER character (herc) who was even MORE ambiguous than ck! and you're claiming your stance (ck>>>>lucifer) DEFINITIVELY!

😂 hilarious. zop, at least have the good graces to say you've never read any lucifer and that you're stance is just opinion based on your ltd knowledge of the characters involved--and on your sig. 😉

i understand multiverse perfectly clearly. i also understand there is FAR more beyond that. and beyond that is where you'd find lucifer--outside ck's league.

I just told you what an omniverse is. You can look it up if you don't believe me. There's no way in hell Lucifer created an omniverse by DEFINITION.

On panel it was stated to be a universe or multiverse. And even then it was his BROTHER'S power that achieved this. He merely shaped it as is his FUNCTION.

And regarding CK and Hercules multiversal feats in the CW arc, there is nothing ambiguous about it, you just refuse to accept on panel and handbook confirmation of what went down. I'm tired of pointing this out to you.

Originally posted by zopzop
You believe Lucifer created an omniverse using Michael's power? LOL. Proof?

I just told you what an omniverse is. You can look it up if you don't believe me. There's no way in hell Lucifer created an omniverse by DEFINITION.

On panel it was stated to be a universe or multiverse. And even then it was his BROTHER'S power that achieved this. He merely shaped it as is his FUNCTION.

And regarding CK and Hercules multiversal feats in the CW arc, there is nothing ambiguous about it, you just refuse to accept on panel and handbook confirmation of what went down. I'm tired of pointing this out to you.

lol proof? self-evident. the lucifer/michael creation event is the same one that created the primary creation. is the primary creation an omniverse.....? lucifer's creation was still evolving, it had different dimensions, etc. it IS a second creation. if you think the initial creation was an omniverse, lucifer's is/will be as well. btw, you can find at least 3 different definitions of omniverse in comics......

you continue to ignore that lucifer BEAT michael. that feat alone>>>>>>>anything ck did, certainly>>>>>>>>>>anyone ck BEAT in a fight..... ignore that again will you?

and of course the feats are ambiguous. why? because the term MULTIVERSE is ambiguous. you just told me the 'everything' in the arc isn't really 'everything' at all, but rather relates to just one among an infinite number multiverses. someone absorbs 98% of the multiverse and is equal to eternity. wut? yeah, hardly any ambiguity. lol

while impressive, the feat is not as impressive as you want everyone to believe i'm afraid, and there are powers beyond this level. marvel has a few. dc does as well. lucifer is one of them.

Originally posted by leonidas
lol proof? self-evident. the lucifer/michael creation event is the same one that created the primary creation. is the primary creation an omniverse.....? lucifer's creation was still evolving, it had different dimensions, etc. it IS a second creation. if you think the initial creation was an omniverse, lucifer's is/will be as well. btw, you can find at least 3 different definitions of omniverse in comics......

you continue to ignore that lucifer BEAT michael. that feat alone>>>>>>>anything ck did, certainly>>>>>>>>>>anyone ck BEAT in a fight..... ignore that again will you?

and of course the feats are ambiguous. why? because the term MULTIVERSE is ambiguous. you just told me the 'everything' in the arc isn't really 'everything' at all, but rather relates to just one among an infinite number multiverses. someone absorbs 98% of the multiverse and is equal to eternity. wut? yeah, hardly any ambiguity. lol

while impressive, the feat is not as impressive as you want everyone to believe i'm afraid, and there are powers beyond this level. marvel has a few. dc does as well. lucifer is one of them.

So believe what you will Leo, I don't think either of us are changing our minds on this.

there is actually not a single, unsupportable thing in the whole post, so not sure what exactly is wrong with it. the primary creation=secondary creation. lucifer's creation even had its own heaven according to narration. it simply depends on how you choose to view the primary creation. so, yeah, i'm good. and lucifer wins.

Originally posted by zopzop
No one called Gruenwald an idiot. WTF are you talking about.

mmm seems to be a case of selective amnesia.

Originally posted by zopzop
AND the guy who said it is a) a notorious idiot (see Cosmos in Collision and the GLA arc).

This pertains to Oblivion amiright?
Gruenwald was the one who penned Oblivion....remember. Anyway there's no reason to discredit what DeMatteis had Oblivion state about himself + it's the latest on panel info regarding what CK was...an aspect.

Originally posted by zopzop
Galactus 'straining' to keep the portal open has nothing to do with it's complexity or location in regard to the rest of the multiverse. He was straining because he wasn't at his best, SuperGod Hercules pulled him away right before he was about to eat a planet at the beginning of Chaos War. Surfer even mentions this to Hercules. He was hungry throughout the whole arc.

So you still think CK can transverse out of that far away pocket universe? Galactus, a being who has teleported a entire galaxy that was said would take centuries to find as well as teleporting Surfer across the universe with gestures had to:

"exploit quantum fluctuations of the inflation field to open a wormhole between this universe and continuum".

And here we have CK not even able to find the Council of Godheads throne room where the heads of the pantheons were without Herc's help. 😐
So now tell me...do you still think CK can transverse that distance?

Originally posted by zopzop
As to the rest of your post, it's not use responding because you can't even get basic facts regarding what went on during CiC right. For example : Maelstrom DID have cosmic awareness that was one of the first amps he went after.

Like I said, what good is the power if you can't utilize it properly? In mid battle, HE HAD TO BE TOLD to use his cosmic awareness in order to sense the ripples across the time stream coming from Quasar due to an "aspect of his personal reality" thus breaking Malestrom's concentration.

So much fail here, in that story AND your posts. 😬

Originally posted by Sundipped
mmm seems to be a case of selective amnesia.

This pertains to Oblivion amiright?
Gruenwald was the one who penned Oblivion....remember. Anyway there's no reason to discredit what DeMatteis had Oblivion state about himself + it's the latest on panel info regarding what CK was...an aspect.

So you still think CK can transverse out of that far away pocket universe? Galactus, a being who has teleported a entire galaxy that was said would take centuries to find as well as teleporting Surfer across the universe with gestures had to:

"[B]exploit quantum fluctuations of the inflation field to open a wormhole between this universe and continuum".

And here we have CK not even able to find the Council of Godheads throne room where the heads of the pantheons were without Herc's help. 😐
So now tell me...do you still think CK can transverse that distance?

Like I said, what good is the power if you can't utilize it properly? In mid battle, HE HAD TO BE TOLD to use his cosmic awareness in order to sense the ripples across the time stream coming from Quasar due to an "aspect of his personal reality" thus breaking Malestrom's concentration.

So much fail here, in that story AND your posts. 😬

i originally posted this in the cosmology thread, but it seems to have some bearing on what i was saying here, and regarding eternity representing more than just a 'single' universe:

Originally posted by leonidas
well, as i was going through the infinity arc, i came across this scan. i think it helps solidify my universes within universes theory:

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/27/cq5c.jpg

"a failed pocket universe resting within an existing one...."

clearly 2 universes CAN co-exist within each other. that would also mean that eternity 616 represents at LEAST 2 universes on panel--the negative zone and the 616 universe. a rather large piece of information imo, and one that seems to strongly support what i've been saying, regarding the multiversal nature of eternity, no?

Originally posted by leonidas
i originally posted this in the cosmology thread, but it seems to have some bearing on what i was saying here, and regarding eternity representing more than just a 'single' universe:

There's tons more of that. But you don't seem to care.

@zop: well, (a) your bio is plainly overruled by forum law by on panel evidence. clear as day--a universe within a universe in the scan i showed you.

here dormmy defeats eternity--the SAME eternity he battled in the 60's and what does he find as he descends within eternity?

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/12349133/e2.jpg.html

dimensions, universes, contained within eternity's essence. and here:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/7/73712/1917665-eternityalluniverses.jpg

eternity reaches for strange and what happens? he sees universeS within it....

reinventing the wheel? i'm just viewing the wheel as it has always been. you can cite a 100 examples that say eternity is the essence of the 616 universe. i'll agree 100 times.

do you understand that? i'll AGREE. so do NOT show me a scan that says eternity represents the universe. I AGREE.

show me a scan that proves he ONLY represents the one SINGLE universe. the difference between us is i don't ignore the ON PANEL PROOF that eternity (and that strange scan far and away predates any notion of a multi-eternity) has, and has for a LONG time, represented MORE than JUST the 616 earth universe. you can call PIS if you choose (not a great defense, ever.....), you can try and force fit some retroactive material into it by somehow saying that is multi-eternity or something. what you absolutely can NOT do, is produce ANY proof that multi-eternity has appeared in any issue ever, outside that lone ff arc.

eternity (as shown above) can be seen as a multi-versal entity. even his bio acknowledges this idea: "He is every living thing and every living thing is him; thus he controls everything in all plains of existence with the exception of the Living Tribunal, who maintains the cosmic balance of power." i don't think i need to tell you how many times "plains of existence" has been used as a synonym for dimensions, worlds, universes, realities. not only that, we now have DEFINITIVE, ON PANEL PROOF that a universe CAN exist WITHIN another universe. so, even if you choose to believe he DOES only represent one universe in spite of the evidence to the contrary, you MUST admit that he at LEAST represents 2--616 earth universe AND the negative zone.

and of course the whole thing makes perfect sense in lieu of the chaos king arc. ck absorbed 98% of the multiverse and only THEN approached eternity in power.

ignore it if you'd like zop, but do me the favor of telling me YOU'RE the one just blatantly choosing to ignore what's right in front of you, multiple times, and stop making it seem like I'M the one ignoring canon material.

Originally posted by leonidas
@zop: well, (a) your bio is plainly overruled by forum law by on panel evidence. clear as day--a universe within a universe in the scan i showed you.

here dormmy defeats eternity--the SAME eternity he battled in the 60's and what does he find as he descends within eternity?

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/12349133/e2.jpg.html

dimensions, universes, contained within eternity's essence. and here:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/7/73712/1917665-eternityalluniverses.jpg

eternity reaches for strange and what happens? he sees universeS within it....

reinventing the wheel? i'm just viewing the wheel as it has always been. you can cite a 100 examples that say eternity is the essence of the 616 universe. i'll agree 100 times.

do you understand that? i'll AGREE. so do NOT show me a scan that says eternity represents the universe. I AGREE.

show me a scan that proves he ONLY represents the one SINGLE universe. the difference between us is i don't ignore the ON PANEL PROOF that eternity (and that strange scan far and away predates any notion of a multi-eternity) has, and has for a LONG time, represented MORE than JUST the 616 earth universe. you can call PIS if you choose (not a great defense, ever.....), you can try and force fit some retroactive material into it by somehow saying that is multi-eternity or something. what you absolutely can NOT do, is produce ANY proof that multi-eternity has appeared in any issue ever, outside that lone ff arc.

eternity (as shown above) can be seen as a multi-versal entity. even his bio acknowledges this idea: "He is every living thing and every living thing is him; thus he controls everything in all plains of existence with the exception of the Living Tribunal, who maintains the cosmic balance of power." i don't think i need to tell you how many times "plains of existence" has been used as a synonym for dimensions, worlds, universes, realities. not only that, we now have DEFINITIVE, ON PANEL PROOF that a universe CAN exist WITHIN another universe. so, even if you choose to believe he DOES only represent one universe in spite of the evidence to the contrary, you MUST admit that he at LEAST represents 2--616 earth universe AND the negative zone.

and of course the whole thing makes perfect sense in lieu of the chaos king arc. ck absorbed 98% of the multiverse and only THEN approached eternity in power.

ignore it if you'd like zop, but do me the favor of telling me YOU'RE the one just blatantly choosing to ignore what's right in front of you, multiple times, and stop making it seem like I'M the one ignoring canon material.

You're own scan clearly states "a FAILED POCKET UNIVERSE". So not only wasn't it a true universe, it was a FAILED pocket universe.

Double fail on your part my friend.

Originally posted by zopzop
I backed up my handbook entry with an ON PANEL scan. Did you not see the Quasar scan?

You're own scan clearly states "a FAILED POCKET UNIVERSE". So not only wasn't it a true universe, it was a FAILED pocket universe.

Double fail on your part my friend.

bwhahah! so.....NOTHING about the scans? damn, i've seen people run from evidence, but it's like i wrote in invisible font or something! 😂

and i've no idea what you even showed that scan for. i've seen it, used it. the omniverse>multiverse? stuff exists outside the multiverse? and......? 😕

as for the 'failed universe'? LO f'n L so? what the hell does failed even mean in this context? it's STILL a pocket UNIVERSE occupying the same space. i thought eternity represented JUST the 616 universe and nothing more?? you said it like, 100 times. but now he represents not only 616 but pocket universes as well! obviously the negative zone has also been referred to as a universe several times in its history, and a dimension. but when i show scans to you, it's ok if you BLATANTLY ignore them, amiright? there is also plenty of evidence in the what if world that supports eternity as a multiversal entity. but cling to your handbook definitions as you must. but know your handbook is utterly for S*** in the face of the ON PANEL PROOF i showed you. you know it, i know it, anyone reading this knows it. eternity represents MORE than just the 616 earth universe. the evidence can not possibly be any clearer.

incidentally, not so sure i'd call the negative a failure in light of this:

http://www.supermegamonkey.net/chronocomic/entries/scans11/FF251_NegativeZone.jpg

but, i guess i'm not a builder..... the negative zone has CONSISTENTLY been viewed that way throughout its history. just because a builder said it was a failure doesn't throw out its history. but as a kmc vet, you should be MORE than aware of that little forum rule.

The term, "multiverse," is a very loaded term. There's story arcs that have used it differently.

Nobody disagrees that a multiverse is a set of alternate universes. But I've seen it used to also describe (i) every single alternate universe (omniverse, essentially), (ii) every single alternate universe that stems from a single prime universe, or (iii) a single universe that happens to consist of multiple layers of dimensional planes/realities (quantum zone, crimson cosmos, hyperspace, Dreamtime, etc.) -- and is only called "multiverse" because the term universe denotes normally traversable space and doesn't account for all the dimensional layers or pocket realities that are contained in a single, fully-formed universe/reality/continuity.

I think in arguments like this, or any time the term "countless universes," "all dimensions," "all reality," etc., gets used, it better be 100% damn clear that the storyline involves alternate realities/universes. Crisis on Infinite Earths, Final Crisis, Abraxas, Masters of Doom are examples.

If it's not clearly involving fully alternate realities/universes, then phuck it, the story is probably universal in scope. No matter how often a loaded term like "multiverse" or "universes" gets thrown about.

And for me, Chaos War falls in that category. There's an argument that Chaos King ate the multiverse, sure... but it isn't a strong argument. If Chaos King really did do all that, the comics did a damn good job of hiding it while only hinting at it. And considering the number of tie-ins -- some that even speak to Chaos King's rise to power -- it's really doubtful that he ate Earths 1345, 234677, 123587 and 9999 and countless others... all off-panel. That's just typically not how comic stories are told.

Originally posted by ODG
The term, "multiverse," is a very loaded term. There's story arcs that have used it differently.

Nobody disagrees that a multiverse is a set of alternate universes. But I've seen it used to also describe (i) every single alternate universe (omniverse, essentially), (ii) every single alternate universe that stems from a single prime universe, or (iii) a single universe that happens to consist of multiple layers of dimensional planes/realities (quantum zone, crimson cosmos, hyperspace, Dreamtime, etc.) -- and is only called "multiverse" because the term universe denotes normally traversable space and doesn't account for all the dimensional layers or pocket realities that are contained in a single, fully-formed universe/reality/continuity.

I think in arguments like this, or any time the term "countless universes," "all dimensions," "all reality," etc., gets used, it better be 100% damn clear that the storyline involves alternate realities/universes. Crisis on Infinite Earths, Final Crisis, Abraxas, Masters of Doom are examples.

If it's not clearly involving fully alternate realities/universes, then phuck it, the story is probably universal in scope. No matter how often a loaded term like "multiverse" or "universes" gets thrown about.

And for me, Chaos War falls in that category. There's an argument that Chaos King ate the multiverse, sure... but it isn't a strong argument. If Chaos King really did do all that, the comics did a damn good job of hiding it while only hinting at it. And considering the number of tie-ins -- some that even speak to Chaos King's rise to power -- it's really doubtful that he ate Earths 1345, 234677, 123587 and 9999 and countless others... all off-panel. That's just typically not how comic stories are told.

hence my comment on the ambiguous nature of the feat. i agree 100%. 👆

Originally posted by zopzop

I said Oblivion is an idiot NOT Gruenwald and gave you two examples of his minion outsmarting him. Try and follow.

Now you're derailing the argument. What does this have to do with your claim that Oblivion was lying? I told you Thor Annual 1 was under a different writer so it's no need to dismiss what he said about CK's being based on whatever was said in the past.

Originally posted by zopzop
The Council Room was SPECIFICALLY sealed and hidden to keep them safe from CK view. Hercules knew what they did and revealed it. How does this have anything to do with the Continuum universe? CK thought he'd won and that's the only reason he stopped his assault.

Now you're dodging. You made the claim that CK could universe hop across that infinite gulf. I proved how hard it was for a being like Galactus and then asked you how could CK do it. Of course I should've known you were not going to answer. And where's the proof the council room was hidden? It was sealed by Ameterasu to keep anyone from leaving but that's it. Herc's omniscience revealed the location after he was tricked by CK to do so. Even if you were to find evidence, that still doesn't mean he could find his way back from the continuum because while still inside of the multiverse, he needed a map just to find Skrull Dreamtime.

But you think he can travel past\through a near infinite void from another universe outside of the multiverse no prob. 😂

Originally posted by zopzop
The only fail is your understanding of what was going on. CA was the first amp Maelstrom went and he had it ever since he killed Eon (the first amp he got was CA). Throughout the story arc there were examples of Maelstrom using his CA (like when he discovered Quasar had popped back into 616 reality from the Quantum Zone after his chat with Infinity). The reason why Quasar told him to use his CA during the fight was because he, Maelstrom, had to concentrate to keep the Quantum Bands under control. They kill all non worthy users. Once Maelstrom lost his hold on the Qbands, got destroyed and Team Infinity won. You didn't even read the CiC arc did you?

WTF? You love to steer away from the original debate don't you? Your were alluding to CK>>Oblivion based on Malestrom being backed by Oblivion and faltering against Quasar. Is it Oblivions fault that dimwit Malestrom couldn't couldn't sense the ripples in time which led to him losing his focus after the realization of what was happening, which in turn caused him to then become consumed?

If you're going to pick on irrelevant insignificant details without bothering to answer any of the questions I presented then don't even bother responding. You're already trying to veer off from the original basis and content of the debate, don't dig yourself a deeper hole.

Originally posted by Sundipped
Now you're derailing the argument. What does this have to do with your claim that Oblivion was lying? I told you Thor Annual 1 was under a different writer so it's no need to dismiss what he said about CK's being based on whatever was said in the past.

Also Oblivion is notoriously shortsighted. This was shown on panel at least twice (CiCand and the GLA arc) both times it Maelstrom, his servant, making a fool of him.

Now you're dodging. You made the claim that CK could universe hop across that infinite gulf. I proved how hard it was for a being like Galactus and then asked you how could CK do it. Of course I should've known you were not going to answer. And where's the proof the council room was hidden? It was sealed by Ameterasu to keep anyone from leaving but that's it. Herc's omniscience revealed the location after he was tricked by CK to do so. Even if you were to find evidence, that still doesn't mean he could find his way back from the continuum because while still inside of the multiverse, he needed a map just to find Skrull Dreamtime.

But you think he can travel past\through a near infinite void from another universe outside of the multiverse no prob. 😂

CK had no problem hopping between universes and dimensions, so I don't understand what the problem is.

The Dream Map was before he ascended into his CK form. So what does that have to do with anything?

WTF? You love to steer away from the original debate don't you? Your were alluding to CK>>Oblivion based on Malestrom being backed by Oblivion and faltering against Quasar. Is it Oblivions fault that dimwit Malestrom couldn't couldn't sense the ripples in time which led to him losing his focus after the realization of what was happening, which in turn caused him to then become consumed?

If you're going to pick on irrelevant insignificant details without bothering to answer any of the questions I presented then don't even bother responding. You're already trying to veer off from the original basis and content of the debate, don't dig yourself a deeper hole.

You still don't get it do you? What Quasar did was shake Maelstrom's confidence in him being the SOLE Anomaly and this is what caused him to lose control of the Quantum Bands which in turn lead to his defeat. If anything, if Maelstrom was the 'dimwit' you claim he was Quasar's tactic wouldn't have worked because it required Maelstrom to see the truth of Quasar's words and understand why they were true (thanks to Origin).

You see why you fail?

Originally posted by zopzop

Because the damn character himself admitted to mixing lies and truth. It's right there on panel.

Also Oblivion is notoriously shortsighted. This was shown on panel at least twice (CiCand and the GLA arc) both times it Maelstrom, his servant, making a fool of him.

Your Galactus point proves nothing. He was HUNGRY the whole arc since Hercules summoned him just as he was about to consume a planet.

CK had no problem hopping between universes and dimensions, so I don't understand what the problem is.

The Dream Map was before he ascended into his CK form. So what does that have to do with anything?

The "dimwit' Maelstrom OUTSMARTED Oblivion! If Maelstrom is a "dimwit" what does that make Oblivion? Thank you for proving my point for me. PS I believe he's done it a SECOND time during the GLA arc.

You still don't get it do you? What Quasar did was shake Maelstrom's confidence in him being the SOLE Anomaly and this is what caused him to lose control of the Quantum Bands which in turn lead to his defeat. If anything, if Maelstrom was the 'dimwit' you claim he was Quasar's tactic wouldn't have worked because it required Maelstrom to see the truth of Quasar's words and understand why they were true (thanks to Origin).

You see why you fail?