Chaos King vs Lucifer Morningstar

Originally posted by zopzop
I'm sorry Leo but you'd be wrong. It's been confirmed now that he devoured 98.75% of the mainstream Marvel multiverse. Also keep in mind, Death itself fled from CK. Death the Abstract being who is one of the top four abstracts (the other three being : Eternity/Infinity/Oblivion).

that's not bad, but it is an ambiguous feat at best. lucifer>>death of the endless. that's a more impressive statement than claiming ck MIGHT be greater than a universal entity....

I believe Oblivion was lying out his ass trying to claim CK's rampage for himself. How can CK be a mere aspect of Oblivion when CK's creator straight up said he's older than Galactus and Galactus' universe? Why isn't Oblivion pissed that an aspect of himself that powerful is wasting his time in a dead universe? Why can't Oblivion contact CK and tell him he was tricked and to get out that false universe and continue his rampage, if he's really an aspect of him?

i think you're looking at the term aspect incorrectly. in the strictest sense, ss's power is an aspect of galactus. aspects can be small and grow on their own as well. i don't think the retcon really meant anything at all tbh.

Because SuperGod Hercules, a confirmed MULTIVERSAL power, took EVERYTHING he had to merely push CK into the Continuum universe and SuperGod Herc had help.

This isn't Lucifer and crew vs CK. This is Lucifer vs CK. CK plucks emo boy with Daddy issues wings off and then tortures him slowly as he kills him. CK wins.

lol he could try. just because herc (who was never shown to be>an eternity level entity) couldn't kill him, doesn't mean lucifer couldn't. at all. the only being in all of dc who was proven capable of coming CLOSE to doing what you suggested was lucifer himself. he was a virtual equal to michael, who's power you should know well. i have no idea what this void idea is, but imo, lucifer would literally grab ck and burn him to ash. no bfr necessary.

Yup. The more you look at it, the more insane CK's reign of terror appears (in terms of power and scope). [/B]

threatening the multiverse is clearly impressive, but i'd put guys like owen, beyonder (the version that battled owen) above him. i'd put IG above him. hell, even dormmamu did more when he defeated eternity the second time. there are confirmed omniversal threats in the excalibur series as well. he falls in a select group, but that doesn't mean he is beating lucifer. at all.

Originally posted by zopzop

She didn't flee from Walker because of fear of him. She fled because she didn't want to hurt him but he pushed his luck too far (by torturing Rick Jones) and Death put her foot down in anger. It's stated on panel.

Something in the IB's nature compels her to obey when he calls. She didn't flee, she went away angry. And she held that grudge all the way till Thanos Quest. [/B]

And when did i say she fled in fear? In fact, i clearly said that it's a habit of hers. Now, Death fled from Walker (for her own reasons), hid in a vulnerable form, and in the end Thanos says that she could have taken Walker's life all along. So, im asking you, what does Death fleeing from CK prove, exactly? That she fled from him just like she did from others well below her power?

....IB's nature has nothing to do with Death, he summoned her only because he has the ability to summon one's polar opposite. Stated on panel. Yes she was very angry, doesn't change the fact she fled. No arguing about it.

Originally posted by operator616
And when did i said she fled in fear? In fact, i clearly said that it's a habit of hers. Now, Death fled from Walker (for her own reasons), hid in a vulnerable form, and in the end Thanos says that she could have taken Walker's life all along. So, im asking you, what does Death fleeing from CK prove, exactly? That she fled from him just like she did from others well below her power?

We saw Death leave reality altogether when CK showed his face. Dead people were rising and those that should have died were stuck in some odd coma.

Do you see a difference?

....IB's nature has nothing to do with Death, he summoned her only because he has the ability to summon one's polar opposite. Stated on panel. Yes she was very angry, doesn't change the fact she fled. No arguing about it.

Originally posted by leonidas
that's not bad, but it is an ambiguous feat at best. lucifer>>death of the endless. that's a more impressive statement than claiming ck MIGHT be greater than a universal entity....

i think you're looking at the term aspect incorrectly. in the strictest sense, ss's power is an aspect of galactus. aspects can be small and grow on their own as well. i don't think the retcon really meant anything at all tbh.

lol he could try. just because herc (who was never shown to be>an eternity level entity) couldn't kill him, doesn't mean lucifer couldn't. at all. the only being in all of dc who was proven capable of coming CLOSE to doing what you suggested was lucifer himself. he was a virtual equal to michael, who's power you should know well. i have no idea what this void idea is, but imo, lucifer would literally grab ck and burn him to ash. no bfr necessary.

threatening the multiverse is clearly impressive, but i'd put guys like owen, beyonder (the version that battled owen) above him. i'd put IG above him. hell, even dormmamu did more when he defeated eternity the second time. there are confirmed omniversal threats in the excalibur series as well. he falls in a select group, but that doesn't mean he is beating lucifer. at all.

His opponent, SuperGod Hercules, had the power to RESTORE 98.75% of the multiverse and yet he was no match for CK.

Lucifer's most impressive feat has him manipulating his dying brother's power to create a new reality. That's it.

How is Lucifer going to kill a Void being? When has Lucifer killed or beaten anyone on CK's level? Lucifer has exploitable weaknesses though, I hear removing those wings makes angels into little b|tches.

And for people downplaying the fact that CK annihilated and SG Herc later recreated all those pantheons during Chaos War, keep in mind the only reason SuperGod Hercules got all that power was from FOUR objects of power from various pantheons : Amrita, Ambrosia, Golden Apples, Thoth's Scrolls. Four items from Earth's pantheons created a multiversal level being.

^ And who do you think is capable of cutting his wings? He cut them willingly.

Originally posted by zopzop

We were given the reason why Death fled from Walker, so as not to hurt him. She didn't leave reality because of it because things were still going about the natural order.

We saw Death leave reality altogether when CK showed his face. Dead people were rising and those that should have died were stuck in some odd coma.

Do you see a difference?
[/B]

Hmm......is that why Death hid in a mortal/vulnerable form?:

http://i.imgur.com/B6qCO4N.jpg

.....because if Death dies, i doubt things would be about the natural order.

Still avoiding the question, i see. Death fled from CK, cool. She also fled from Walker and Inbetweener (instead of confronting him).

Originally posted by zopzop

She didn't flee the IB, he dismissed her! [/B]

Something like that, although it could be said that she fled from him since she didn't confront him later even. Her anger was seen in the Silver Surfer issues, before Thanos Quest, and then up to Thanos quest as you said.

Originally posted by zopzop
Well there was a time there were TWO Anomalies so why couldn't there be two Oblivions? Not that I believe CK is truly an aspect of Oblivion in the literal sense. Too much inconsistencies with that theory AND the guy who said it is a) a notorious idiot (see Cosmos in Collision and the GLA arc), b) admitted to mixing lies and truth as he was narrating the story.

When were there two abstract anomalies co-existing aside from alternate versions of the cosmic compass? Gruenwald was your boy when you used to try to defend Malestrom now you turn your back on him? 😂 Anyway, he wasn't the one who wrote the Thor Annual so now we can take safety in Oblivions statement.

Originally posted by zopzop
He was uppercutted but there was nothing to hold him there (we've already seen he can travel between universes and dimensions). That was SuperGod Hercs final blow and it didn't put him down. The only reason he stayed was because he thought he finally achieved his goal and was at peace.

You have no evidence that he can travel back and forth from the continuum at will. Amadeus said it was on the far end outside of the multiverse. Even Galactus struggled trying to hold the portal open and wondered how in the hell could anyone even transverse the "infinite gulf".

I know why he stayed but at first is seemed like you were trying to imply that he willingly went along with the heroes plan which is definitely not what happened.

Originally posted by zopzop
And it was stated and SHOWN ON PANEL (by the fact that beings that were supposed to be dead were coming alive) that Death really DID flee from CK. How can this be if he's merely an aspect of Oblivion? Death/Oblivion/Eternity/Infinity are peers. Hell Oblivion couldn't even beat Infinity in a straight up fight despite having home field advantage AND the more powerful Avatar in Maelstrom. Not to mention the best all this power was going to accomplish was to crush 616 reality into a singularity as opposed to CK's 98.75% destruction of the MULTIVERSE. [/

What makes Death fleeing so absurd was the fact that CK wasn't even at full power when it happened. Death is supposed to be equal to Infinity\Oblivion\and Eternity at peak levels. She also got ordered around by Inbetweener...a being who could stalemate a weak Galactus at best and she has shown powers like stomping Walker (after hiding in a mortal body)by releasing billions of souls from his being. Seems like a viable tactic that could've worked on CK but whatever.

So what are you saying? CK = Oblivion or CK >>Oblivion?
Good job downplaying Oblivion in Cosmos in Collision not to mention lying about their respective power levels. Fighting through avatars, Quasar was show to be evenly matched with Malestrom.

Meh, anyway Oblivion brought Malestrom back to life then empowered him after he died in that black hole. Enough power to stalemate a fellow abstract. Who cares about what Malestroms plan was? Oblivion even said that wasn't his idea anyway. Oblivion has no lackluster feats in that arc for you to pick on in order to favor your " CK's not a aspect" argument.

Since when is effortlessly manipulating the infinite demiurgic power of GOD himself into a tangible multiverse so easily dismissed..? It's also worth noting that Lucifer tanked said energies exploding in his face prior to manipulating them. But I suppose tanking a multiversal big bang without so much as a scratch to show for it is no big whoop either, eh..?

g007-psyduck

Originally posted by Sundipped
When were there two abstract anomalies co-existing aside from alternate versions of the cosmic compass? Gruenwald was your boy when you used to try to defend Malestrom now you turn your back on him? 😂 Anyway, he wasn't the one who wrote the Thor Annual so now we can take safety in Oblivions statement.

I also said I don't believe CK has anything to do with Oblivion and Oblivion was talking out his ass.

You have no evidence that he can travel back and forth from the continuum at will. Amadeus said it was on the far end outside of the multiverse. Even Galactus struggled trying to hold the portal open and wondered how in the hell could anyone even transverse the "infinite gulf".

I know why he stayed but at first is seemed like you were trying to imply that he willingly went along with the heroes plan which is definitely not what happened.

What makes Death fleeing so absurd was the fact that CK wasn't even at full power when it happened. Death is supposed to be equal to Infinity\Oblivion\and Eternity at peak levels. She also got ordered around by Inbetweener...a being who could stalemate a weak Galactus at best and she has shown powers like stomping Walker (after hiding in a mortal body)by releasing billions of souls from his being. Seems like a viable tactic that could've worked on CK but whatever.

So what are you saying? CK = Oblivion or CK >>Oblivion?
Good job downplaying Oblivion in Cosmos in Collision not to mention lying about their respective power levels. Fighting through avatars, Quasar was show to be evenly matched with Malestrom.

Meh, anyway Oblivion brought Malestrom back to life then empowered him after he died in that black hole. Enough power to stalemate a fellow abstract. Who cares about what Malestroms plan was? Oblivion even said that wasn't his idea anyway. Oblivion has no lackluster feats in that arc for you to pick on in order to favor your " CK's not a aspect" argument.

And yes, I'm saying CK > Oblivion or any other abstract below the LT.

And why are you accusing me of lying about their power levels when you have no clue what you are talking about.

During CiC Maelstrom has his power + Cosmic Awareness + Quantum Bands (and mastery over them thanks to CA) + Anomaly's power. Then he merged with Oblivion to take on Quasar who only had cosmic awareness + Infinity's power. That's it. Yet Oblivion was unable to beat Infinity despite having the more impressive Avatar and despite having home field advantage (they were battling in Oblivion's realm)!

Originally posted by Galan007
Since when is effortlessly manipulating the infinite demiurgic power of GOD himself into a tangible multiverse so easily dismissed..? It's also worth noting that Lucifer tanked said energies exploding in his face prior to manipulating them. But I suppose tanking a multiversal big bang without so much as a scratch to show for it is no big whoop either, eh..?

g007-psyduck

If he was created to manipulate God's power--infinite power--don't you think that would also blanket any energy that is less than infinite..?

I mean, if I can count to 100, I can probably count to 50 as well. Just saying.

Originally posted by operator616
^ And who do you think is capable of cutting his wings? He cut them willingly.

Hmm......is that why Death hid in a mortal/vulnerable form?:

http://i.imgur.com/B6qCO4N.jpg

.....because if Death dies, i doubt things would be about the natural order.

Still avoiding the question, i see. Death fled from CK, cool. She also fled from Walker and Inbetweener (instead of confronting him).

Something like that, although it could be said that she fled from him since she didn't confront him later even. Her anger was seen in the Silver Surfer issues, before Thanos Quest, and then up to Thanos quest as you said.

She FLED from CK. She literally abandoned reality and was derelict in her duties while CK was out and about.

I find it amazing that you can't see the difference between these three occurrences.

Originally posted by zopzop
Leo, I don't get what's so hard to understand? He destroyed 98.75% of the MULTIVERSE stated on panel and his handbook entry. It doesn't get plainer than that.

zop, i get what you're saying. in fact, i said i AGREED with it. where we are NOT on the same page is in defining MULTIVERSE. which multiverse? there are multiple multiverses, proven many times, on panel. so, i agree--he had absorbed 98% of the 616 mutliverse. but there us FAR more to marvel than just that. did he absorb 98% of the multiverse, zop?

Lucifer's most impressive feat has him manipulating his dying brother's power to create a new reality. That's it.

i disagree. i think his matching michael, and defeating him, is his greatest single feat. though galan raised a couple others as well.

How is Lucifer going to kill a Void being? When has Lucifer killed or beaten anyone on CK's level? Lucifer has exploitable weaknesses though, I hear removing those wings makes angels into little b|tches.

lol "heard"? man, you should read the stuff before coming across so arrogantly in your analysis..... if lucifer didn't have his wings, maybe ck could take him (he still had all his brains though and ck was kind of an idiot....) that doesn't matter. the only one capable of taking his wings was.....? yep--lucifer himself. his own power is what brought him low. not even the basanos, joining with other gods, could threaten him without his own power doing the work. and you continue to ask--WHO DID LUCIFER BEAT?? the same can be said of ck--who did HE beat who was close to lucifer's level? an eternity-level herc? a universal death? not even close to the morningstar.....

And for people downplaying the fact that CK annihilated and SG Herc later recreated all those pantheons during Chaos War, keep in mind the only reason SuperGod Hercules got all that power was from FOUR objects of power from various pantheons : Amrita, Ambrosia, Golden Apples, Thoth's Scrolls. Four items from Earth's pantheons created a multiversal level being. [/B]

that actually HURTS your case, more than helps it. objects from 4 pantheonic gods was enough to allow him to take over the TRUE multiverse (read: omniverse)??? that....is absurd. mikaboshi would die like any other being could or would die. we have on panel proof (scan was shown i think in this thread) that showed oblivion could be wiped out. if HE could be, ck, just an aspect of him, could certainly be by a powerful enough opponent. someone capable of harnessing and shaping GOD'S power, is just such a one.

Originally posted by leonidas
zop, i get what you're saying. in fact, i said i AGREED with it. where we are NOT on the same page is in defining MULTIVERSE. which multiverse? there are multiple multiverses, proven many times, on panel. so, i agree--he had absorbed 98% of the 616 mutliverse. but there us FAR more to marvel than just that. did he absorb 98% of the multiverse, zop?

i disagree. i think his matching michael, and defeating him, is his greatest single feat. though galan raised a couple others as well.

lol "heard"? man, you should read the stuff before coming across so arrogantly in your analysis..... if lucifer didn't have his wings, maybe ck could take him (he still had all his brains though and ck was kind of an idiot....) that doesn't matter. the only one capable of taking his wings was.....? yep--lucifer himself. his own power is what brought him low. not even the basanos, joining with other gods, could threaten him without his own power doing the work. and you continue to ask--WHO DID LUCIFER BEAT?? the same can be said of ck--who did HE beat who was close to lucifer's level? an eternity-level herc? a universal death? not even close to the morningstar.....

that actually HURTS your case, more than helps it. objects from 4 pantheonic gods was enough to allow him to take over the TRUE multiverse (read: omniverse)??? that....is absurd. mikaboshi would die like any other being could or would die. we have on panel proof (scan was shown i think in this thread) that showed oblivion could be wiped out. if HE could be, ck, just an aspect of him, could certainly be by a powerful enough opponent. someone capable of harnessing and shaping GOD'S power, is just such a one.

A) It was the MULTIVERSE. Not 616 reality and it's pocket dimensions. The Handbook entry confirms this.

B) Lucifer beating Michael says more about Michael's fail than Lucifer's power. We already saw he really wasn't capable of much without manipulating his brother's power (which is what he was created to do in the first place). Chaos King utterly humiliated SuperGod Herc who did something that took BOTH Lucifer AND Michael to do.

C) CK didn't need those objects Leo. Those objects created SuperGod Hercules. You know the being capable of repairing multiverse wide destruction. That's how Marvel pantheons roll. You don't have to understand it or even like it, but that's what it is. Four objects of power from four pantheons created an abstract level being capable of multiverse wide feats. Yet this same being was nothing to Chaos King. A ravaged SuperGod Hercules was powerful enough to repair 98.75% of the multiverse and restore all the dead beings that CK devoured.

was it the omniverse he absorbed? while i'm at it i guess: where was it shown--on panel or in a handbook even--that herc>eternity? who did herc beat to prove himself?

Originally posted by leonidas
was it the omniverse he absorbed?

while i'm at it i guess: where was it shown--on panel or in a handbook even--that herc>eternity? who did herc beat to prove himself?

Lucifer decisively.

Originally posted by zopzop

No, of course not.

cool. so it wasn't REALLY everything, everywhere then. excellent. i agree. god's power was used to fashion a creation that is comparable to the marvel omniverse though. that power was in michael. lucifer shaped that power, took that blast and in general operated at THAT level throughout. in his creation he WAS the supreme entity. THAT's more than ck ever did i'm afraid.....

Prove himself? Instead of restoring 98.75% of the multiverse, Athena said he could have remade it completely and ruled as God but he chose not to. [/B]

and? it's meaningless because we don't know exactly what that multiverse entailed. it still seems everything operated around eternity's level. eternity certainly wasn't afraid of ck. he just saw him as his opposite. fighting him would be fighting himself. that certainly implies equals--or near enough so to not make a difference. despite everything he did, he was NOT definitively above eternity. and herc wasn't even at THAT level.

ck's feat was cool, but ultimately ambiguous given what we saw of his relative power level compared to known powers. he was powerful, but most certainly not beyond someone of lucifer's power.

Originally posted by Epicurus
Then you would know that the Beyonder has nothing on Lucifer in terms of how well their respective characters were written.

Lawl.

Cows don't have wings because he doesn't want them to Epicurus.

Originally posted by leonidas
cool. so it wasn't REALLY everything, everywhere then. excellent. i agree. god's power was used to fashion a creation that is comparable to the marvel omniverse though. that power was in michael. lucifer shaped that power, took that blast and in general operated at THAT level throughout. in his creation he WAS the supreme entity. THAT's more than ck ever did i'm afraid.....

The Marvel OMNIVERSE contains an infinite number of Megaverses which contain an infinite number of MULTIVERES which contain an infinite number of UNIVERSES.

Lucifer didn't do jack crap on the omni or megaversal scale. He created a new universe by shaping his BROTHER'S power. His freaking BROTHER'S power. Not his own.

and? it's meaningless because we don't know exactly what that multiverse entailed. it still seems everything operated around eternity's level. eternity certainly wasn't afraid of ck. he just saw him as his opposite. fighting him would be fighting himself. that certainly implies equals--or near enough so to not make a difference. despite everything he did, he was NOT definitively above eternity. and herc wasn't even at THAT level.

ck's feat was cool, but ultimately ambiguous given what we saw of his relative power level compared to known powers. he was powerful, but most certainly not beyond someone of lucifer's power.

Originally posted by zopzop

Again you'd be wrong.

The Marvel OMNIVERSE contains an infinite number of Megaverses which contain an infinite number of MULTIVERES which contain an infinite number of UNIVERSES.

so it's...."everything"? all reality? all universes? all creation? there was a scan that showed it was a collection of all alternates as well. hmm. well, glad we agree. 👆

Lucifer didn't do jack crap on the omni or megaversal scale. He created a new universe by shaping his BROTHER'S power. His freaking BROTHER'S power. Not his own.

his brother contained the power. lucifer shaped it. lucifer has defeated michael in battle. the original 'creation' is an omniverse, as shown through the vertigo line. it contains universes, dimensions, realities, and an infinite variety of alternate versions of the 'prime' universes, some where there are no heroes at all. the endless concepts exist across those universes. all of them. lucifer's creation was intended to be a mirror of sorts, only without god ruling it. lucifer makes the endless s*** themselves, even death. THAT is power, both displayed and implied. ck on the other hand? any proof yet that ck OR herc was definitively greater than eternity.....? still waiting on that. the scan where eternity talks about him SURRREEEE makes it sound like they're about equal.....

It's been explained to you what a multiverse entails in Marvel but you refuse to accept it. That's your prerogative but don't act like there is no on panel proof that's backed by handbook entries confirming it because their is. [/B]

you're not hearing me somehow. how many times do i have to agree he absorbed most of the prime multiverse? it makes perfect sense to me. and in so doing he apparently equaled eternity. that ALSO makes perfect sense to me. a multiverse is a simple collection of dimensions and universes and realities and pockets and what have you. infinite on a smaller scale than the omniverse. so? tell me how i refuse to accept anything again? 😕

it seems in the arc though, we are intended to believe that ck absorbed....nearly EVERYTHING. but now you're saying he didn't. that the omniverse was fine. so his power was limited to a single multiverse--almost--and what did it apparently get him? eternity level. that all seems pretty darn clear to anyone with some reading comp skills. and to me, it makes utter and perfect sense.

YOU'RE the one claiming ck>>eternity (without proof beyond what you want to call your own 'common sense' i guess....and the ambiguous death scene) you're the one who can't explain how something can absorb 98% of the multiverse but still only be roughly equal to eternity. you're the one who has no proof of how powerful herc is compared to.....anyone of substance, yet continues to demand proof of who lucifer fought. and now, YOU'RE the one who admits that the arc didn't even mean what it SAID it means! ck wasn't REALLY absorbing "everything", all "reality". he was only ltd to ONE multiverse. why stop there? what makes you think it wasn't the omniverse the writer intended? common sense? tsk. you're ham-handedly and transparently forcing an ambiguous feat, performed by a character who never battled anyone of established power levels, to mean what you WANT it to mean, because otherwise it's not as great as you'd like. you throw around multiverse like the term actually has an immutable definition and isn't subject to a writer's whims, and to reinforce the point, your proof: you tell us ck was more powerful than ANOTHER character (herc) who was even MORE ambiguous than ck! and you're claiming your stance (ck>>>>lucifer) DEFINITIVELY!

😂 hilarious. zop, at least have the good graces to say you've never read any lucifer and that you're stance is just opinion based on your ltd knowledge of the characters involved--and on your sig. 😉

i understand multiverse perfectly clearly. i also understand there is FAR more beyond that. and beyond that is where you'd find lucifer--outside ck's league.

Originally posted by zopzop
No one is turning their back on Gruenwald, I merely said there were examples of two representations of the same abstract before and gave you an example.

I also said I don't believe CK has anything to do with Oblivion and Oblivion was talking out his ass.

At first you were on his side now he's a idiot. Flopzop strikes again. Those examples are moot because Thor Annual was under a different writer. We'll stick with the idiot characterization though because Gruenwald had Malestrom tank a IG blast even though it was explained that Thanos may not be adept in its use.

Still speculation on your part to think Oblivion was lying in the annual. The instances you speak of that happened before that are irrelevant. Remember, Gruenwald's a idiot.

Originally posted by zopzop
He traveled between the infinite universes and pocket dimensions that made up the multiverse just fine. The only reason they beat him was because they made him believe he'd won by BFRing him into that pocket universe. He only stayed there because he thought he was done with what he set out to do.

Still no proof that he can transverse the infinite gulf that Big G was talking about. CK traveled WITHIN the multiverse. The continuum is located OUTSIDE of the multiverse. Far outside. So far that Galactus was straining to keep the portal open. You're beating a dead horse telling me what I already know about his bfr to the continuum. As long as you understand that he was forced and didn't go under his own will, that's all that matters.

Originally posted by zopzop
Death fleeing is absurd if you believe that CK was merely an aspect of her peer Oblivion. I don't believe that. I used to but not anymore.

And yes, I'm saying CK > Oblivion or any other abstract below the LT.

And why are you accusing me of lying about their power levels when you have no clue what you are talking about.

During CiC Maelstrom has his power + Cosmic Awareness + Quantum Bands (and mastery over them thanks to CA) + Anomaly's power. Then he merged with Oblivion to take on Quasar who only had cosmic awareness + Infinity's power. That's it. Yet Oblivion was unable to beat Infinity despite having the more impressive Avatar and despite having home field advantage (they were battling in Oblivion's realm)!

Death fleeing from an at the time, subpar CK, is what's absurd. And how the hell is CK (a being with 0 battle feats against any certified top tier cosmic who got his teeth knocked out by an artifacts powered Herc) >>>ANYabstract below LT? Don't make me laugh. 😂 And before you bring up CK destroying 98+% of the multiverse (via one dimension at a time) and Herc restoring it, keep in mind that does not equate to automatically having the power to best a high end cosmic or abstract battle wise. Slow multiversal destruction/restoration=/=ability to sh!tstomp high end abstracts in a battle setting.

The scan states they were equal....which makes that baffoon Malestrom look even more horrible considering he had all those amps but no cosmic awareness at all which was the explanation for his defeat. What good is all that power if one can't utilize it properly? Dude wound up getting consumed by the Quantum Bands. That was Malestroms phuk up and doesn't tarnish Oblivions status at all no matter how much you attempt to lowball him.

You can reply to this if you want but I don't care to debate it any further. We're entering redundancy and I know you'll repeat the same thing again.