Chaos King vs Lucifer Morningstar

Originally posted by leonidas
lol

i saw a scan that said ck=eternity (or it was enough to enough INFER that from). somehow though ck could absorb a multiverse. that still didn't put him definitively above eternity. unless you want to clain it was the magical multi-eternity who was speaking....? if so, i'd love to see the proof. barring that, prove to me, or anyone, that ck was definitively above eternity. i'll wait patiently.

fixed.

in any event, if it was so obvious, it should be no problem at all proving definitively that ck>eternity.

Originally posted by leonidas

i agree--the 616 multiverse.

The Multiverse that houses the 616 Universe = an trans-infinity of universeS.

98+ % of that, is pretty big.

Originally posted by leonidas

regardless, ck was NOT definitively greater than eternity, even after absorbing everything he did.

Although, imo, he's referring to Oblivion using the name CK.

Originally posted by leonidas

"multi-eternity" who was speaking

multi-eternity is simply 616 Eternity's totality (his essence which encompasses the Multiverse)

In the very same page where "multi-eternity" is introduced, he's labelled "Eternity-The Universe"
even after showing a plethora of other Eternities.

Eternity's 2006 bio also takes credit for the "multi-eternity" scenario.

So ck is equal to eternities totality

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C

So ck is equal to eternities totality

I think, CK = Oblivion, which = Eternity, which = Infinity and so on.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I haven't read the arc personally. I'm going off the scans posted.

I think, CK = Oblivion, which = Eternity, which = Infinity and so on.

Apparently Chaos King was just an aspect of Oblivion, which is why Oblivion says he failed.

^^ hmm ...

I see. The plot thickens as they say.

Well, since I've been discussing this subject from posted scans, well versed cosmic aficionados,
and interesting opinions here and there, I think now it's time for me to exit this debate.

I need to read all these books before further commenting,
cause info keeps crashing against info.

Anyway, I seen that Oblivion scan before, didn't like the 4th wall salt sprinkled on it,
but it confuses me when pasting it together with what I understand concerning CW.

So either the info fed to me is incomplete, or there's something wrong here.
This is why I'll read the relevant issues for myself and figure it out later.

Thanx for the scan though. 🙂

^
That's what I was trying to tell you on page 5 of this thread.

Originally posted by leonidas
lol

i saw a scan that said ck=eternity (or it was enough to enough that from). somehow though ck could absorb a multiverse. that still didn't put him definitively above eternity. unless you want to clain it was the magical multi-eternity who was speaking....? if so, i'd love to see the proof. barring that, prove to me, or anyone, that ck was definitively above eternity. i'll wait patiently.

I don't get it though.

Chaos King absorbed most of the Multiverse and was beating the shit out of Super Hercules who even in a greatly weakened state could recreate most of the Multiverse.

Doesn't that by definition mean that if Chaos King = Eternity, then this Eternity is in itself Multiversal?

Trying to give Lucifer the win because Chaos King = Eternity in favor of Chaos King's own feats is kind of missing the forest for the trees.

Originally posted by Sundipped
^
That's what I was trying to tell you on page 5 of this thread.

Originally posted by Sundipped

Retconned in Thor annual.
We know what he was supposed to represent in Chaos War but the statement from Oblivion himself begs to differ.

Personally, I prefer what Oblivion stated about himself over what Eternity said.
CK represents an aspect of Oblivion who was, and is still locked in the continuum.

Hmm ... So, I guess we'll have to say Eternity was sorta lying and allowing Herc to shine,
which is probably why he was smiling knowing how things would turn out.

I'm making that up, but what other reasoning is there?
Well, there's always writer's not thinking ahead. Or writers who work stoned

*edit ... Oblivion's feat is pretty bad ass though:
Some measly "aspect" is endowed with limitless absorption capabilities it seemed,
not bad at all. (grant it, it had to work its way up, but still)

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I don't get it though.

Chaos King absorbed most of the Multiverse and was beating the shit out of Super Hercules who even in a greatly weakened state could recreate most of the Multiverse.

Doesn't that by definition mean that if Chaos King = Eternity, then this Eternity is in itself Multiversal?

give the man a cee-gar. 👆

616 eternity IS a multiverse. there are scans that prove it, and tons of corollaries that also support it. there is no mention of 'totality' at all. ever in that arc. there are an infinite number of eternities. other eternities are also multiverses unto themselves, just alternate versions of the universes that 616 eternity represents. this is also supported though it's an old discussion by now. ck=616 oblivion (maybe)=616 eternity (maybe). i say maybe because if ck was more powerful than eternity, he could have simply consumed him. obviously it was also alluded to that they were about equal. how did he get to be about equal? consuming 98% of the multiverse. that would seem to indicate he should be way more powerful than a universal entity. he wasn't. why? eternity represents more than just a universe. no need to mention 'totalities' that are never mentioned, and no need to ever ever mention multi-eternity.

as regards lucifer--his creation would be the equivalent of having contained not only 616 eternity and all the dimensions/realities/planes of existence contained in its essence, but likewise ALL the OTHER eternities and their alternates as well. the difference of scale is....astronomical. like i said, this is a bit of an old discussion though and it is not without those who disagree. it is an ENTIRELY SUPPORTABLE interpretation however, that has the benefit of fitting nearly all the on panel appearances of eternity. the use and misuse of terminology by writers makes sorting out the cosmology utterly impossible for anyone, but this is the answer that i find BEST fits all the evidence.

Originally posted by leonidas

616 eternity IS a multiverse. other eternities are also multiverses unto themselves

616 eternity and all the dimensions/realities/planes of existence contained in its essence

well, we've been over this before and you know the scans that support eternity representing a multiverse--not in his 'totality' (which is ambiguous, leaves it to the reader to determine when/where this 'totality' is, and, more importantly, is never mentioned.....) but just as 'eternity'. it really is the simplest explanation of what we see on panel, and have seen for decades. in this case, it also perfectly explains why ck, AFTER absorbing a multiverse, has finally reached eternity levels of power. not the 'totality' of eternity (never mentioned) just eternity. throw out handbook definitions of realities/planes/etc.... since all terms are mutable and, well, not sure how the conclusion can be denied. least we agree about multi-eternity though.

Originally posted by leonidas
he'd beat them BOTH! lol sometimes you do go a bit off the deep end. you keep saying he warped michael's power for his feat, but lucifer actually defeated michael once in battle. what's that tell you? then the scope of the 'multiverses' being discussed here are VASTLY different. the vertigo 'creation' is a FULL-ON [b]Multiverse--i mean complete with infinite alternate versions of the earth dimension AND all other dimensions minus a couple (i assume) rare exceptions. ck didn't even absorb all of the 616-related multiverse. it is not at all illogical to assume that the lucifer creation is actually INFINITELY larger than the little mutliverse ck absorbed, just as the marvel Multiverse, complete with alternate earth dimensions and all it corollaries, would likewise be infinitely larger.

he gathered power slowly, beat some minor, b-list cosmics, took over their pocket realms and grew more powerful still. i'd wager at the end, if you really consider what the 616 'creation' contains/is associated with, that ck was STILL weaker than eternity/oblivion/infinity/death. if you don't think so, prove it. 🙂 [/B]

Originally posted by Mr Master
I haven't read the arc personally. I'm going off the scans posted.

I think, CK = Oblivion, which = Eternity, which = Infinity and so on.

I believe Oblivion was lying out his ass trying to claim CK's rampage for himself. How can CK be a mere aspect of Oblivion when CK's creator straight up said he's older than Galactus and Galactus' universe? Why isn't Oblivion pissed that an aspect of himself that powerful is wasting his time in a dead universe? Why can't Oblivion contact CK and tell him he was tricked and to get out that false universe and continue his rampage, if he's really an aspect of him?

Keep in mind CK wasn't killed, trapped, or beaten in the conventional sense. So he can leave whenever he wants. He was 'beaten' by appeasing him. That would be like 'beating' a hungry lion that's chasing you by throwing him 20lbs of steak and then running for your life while he's satiating himself on the food.

Originally posted by Cogito
You keep repeating the same broken tune. So what if God created him with the purpose of creating the mutliverse? He has the power to do so, and has done so, and that's all that matters. Who the phuck cares if he was "meant to do it"

Who gives a shit about pantheons and 98.75% of the multiverse? Lucifer was more powerful than all of Heaven's infinite forces combined (barring Michael), as was repeatedly stated. Lucifer was more powerful than the Endless, among the highest abstracts in the DCU, as was repeatedly stated. Lucifer took raw energy and created 100% of a multiverse, including time and physics from scratch, with zero effort. Chaos Kings efforts took time, because he isn't powerful enough to do what he did instantly. Lucifer merely waves a hand.

This isn't Lucifer and crew vs CK. This is Lucifer vs CK. CK plucks emo boy with Daddy issues wings off and then tortures him slowly as he kills him. CK wins.

And I love that certain Lucifer fans are pushing this Void BFR thing hard. It's like they subconsciously realize that that's Lucifer's only hope of 'winning' : Giving CK what he wants.

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
Since when is 616 eternity powerful enough to absorb a multiverse?
And beat the utter shit of someone who can create one?

CK was above multiversal power

Originally posted by NemeBro
So was I.

I think you need to calm down and accept that Lucy can't win every thread young man.

Lawl.

Originally posted by zopzop
i believe Oblivion was lying out his ass

You know this is pure speculation right?
It's almost like you're saying there are 2 Obllivion's. One in the continuum and one who would represent a potential void in prime 616. How can that be the case? He clearly said CK came close to fulfilling his mission but failed because "he's not me". CK has to be just an aspect. At the time of this statement, the aspect was/still in the continuum OUTSIDE of 616 the multiverse. In cases like this, we go by the latest on panel statement until proven otherwise.

Also, although CK was content in the continuum, it's not like he knew where he was going. He got uppercutted into the portal which means he was forced.

Another thing...Death was supposedly scared but since they never actually engaged in battle, we can't say for sure if CK would've been victorious. They say Manny Pacquaio and Floyd Mayweather are scared of each other but until they actually fight, we can't claim a definite would be winner.

Originally posted by leonidas
give the man a cee-gar. 👆

616 eternity IS a multiverse. there are scans that prove it, and tons of corollaries that also support it. there is no mention of 'totality' at all. ever in that arc. there are an infinite number of eternities. other eternities are also multiverses unto themselves, just alternate versions of the universes that 616 eternity represents. this is also supported though it's an old discussion by now. ck=616 oblivion (maybe)=616 eternity (maybe). i say maybe because if ck was more powerful than eternity, he could have simply consumed him. obviously it was also alluded to that they were about equal. how did he get to be about equal? consuming 98% of the multiverse. that would seem to indicate he should be way more powerful than a universal entity. he wasn't. why? eternity represents more than just a universe. no need to mention 'totalities' that are never mentioned, and no need to ever ever mention multi-eternity.

as regards lucifer--his creation would be the equivalent of having contained not only 616 eternity and all the dimensions/realities/planes of existence contained in its essence, but likewise ALL the OTHER eternities and their alternates as well. the difference of scale is....astronomical. like i said, this is a bit of an old discussion though and it is not without those who disagree. it is an ENTIRELY SUPPORTABLE interpretation however, that has the benefit of fitting nearly all the on panel appearances of eternity. the use and misuse of terminology by writers makes sorting out the cosmology utterly impossible for anyone, but this is the answer that i find BEST fits all the evidence.

Again, you're using a comparison in favor of the actual scale. The Chaos King was going on to consume everything in that story. If the writer considered Eternity his equal, at least earlier on into his rampage, that means he considers Eternity a Multiversal power as well. This is just my take on it, but he also seemed to consider Eternity/Infinity/Living Tribunal as similar beings:
http://s1081.photobucket.com/user/igniz5/media/CKDarkHalfofEternity2.jpg.html?t=1303174639

I'm sorry Leo, but this stance doesn't make any sense to me in light of the evidence. I think the Chaos King absorbed the actual MULTIVERSE not the 616 and it's adjacent dimensions or anything. It's outright been said the Chaos King is a threat to all UNIVERSES and to reality itself on different occasions during that arc:
http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j351/igniz5/CKThreatensAllofRealities.jpg

Even Death herself ran away from this reality. I ADMIT that Universe/Multiverse was used interchangeably at times in this story (Like others) but the scale that the writer intended for the Chaos King to operate on was very clear. I mean, even in the Oblivion story later on, it's outright said that the Chaos King came very close to the annihilation of everything (All Universes), further confirming it:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/17509358/mikoblivion.jpg.html

So as a result, I don't think there was any difference in scale between Lucifer and Mikaboshi at all. Not sure who wins the fight however.

Originally posted by Sundipped
Another thing...Death was supposedly scared but since they never actually engaged in battle, we can't say for sure if CK would've been victorious. They say Manny Pacquaio and Floyd Mayweather are scared of each other but until they actually fight, we can't claim a definite would be winner.

Eh, perhaps, but usually when an Abstract, or pretty much anyone, literally flees in fear of a confrontation, especially something like Death, I wouldn't favor it's chances in an actual fight.

Originally posted by Sundipped
You know this is pure speculation right?
It's almost like you're saying there are 2 Obllivion's. One in the continuum and one who would represent a potential void in prime 616. How can that be the case? He clearly said CK came close to fulfilling his mission but failed because "he's not me". CK has to be just an aspect. At the time of this statement, the aspect was/still in the continuum [B]OUTSIDE of 616 the multiverse. In cases like this, we go by the latest on panel statement until proven otherwise.

Also, although CK was content in the continuum, it's not like he knew where he was going. He got uppercutted into the portal which means he was forced.

Another thing...Death was supposedly scared but since they never actually engaged in battle, we can't say for sure if CK would've been victorious. They say Manny Pacquaio and Floyd Mayweather are scared of each other but until they actually fight, we can't claim a definite would be winner. [/B]

He was uppercutted but there was nothing to hold him there (we've already seen he can travel between universes and dimensions). That was SuperGod Hercs final blow and it didn't put him down. The only reason he stayed was because he thought he finally achieved his goal and was at peace.

And it was stated and SHOWN ON PANEL (by the fact that beings that were supposed to be dead were coming alive) that Death really DID flee from CK. How can this be if he's merely an aspect of Oblivion? Death/Oblivion/Eternity/Infinity are peers. Hell Oblivion couldn't even beat Infinity in a straight up fight despite having home field advantage AND the more powerful Avatar in Maelstrom. Not to mention the best all this power was going to accomplish was to crush 616 reality into a singularity as opposed to CK's 98.75% destruction of the MULTIVERSE.

Originally posted by zopzop
Also keep in mind, Death itself fled from CK. Death the Abstract being who is one of the top four abstracts (the other three being : Eternity/Infinity/Oblivion).

That doesn't mean anything. Death also fled from Walker, would you say he can take on Eternity/Infinity/Oblivion? (I hope not).

She just has a habit of fleeing instead of engaging her opponent. Same thing happened with Inbetweener, she didn't attack him, and instead went away.

Originally posted by operator616
That doesn't mean anything. Death also fled from Walker, would you say he can take on Eternity/Infinity/Oblivion? (I hope not).

She just has a habit of fleeing instead of engaging her opponent. Same thing happened with Inbetweener, she didn't attack him, and instead went away.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Again, you're using a comparison in favor of the actual scale.

i'm not sure i understand what you're saying here. i'm trying to establish scale AS a comparison. not really sure how else to try and show the difference in the characters given the vastly different set ups of their respective companies. i'll try and clarify below.

The Chaos King was going on to consume everything in that story. If the writer considered Eternity his equal, at least earlier on into his rampage, that means he considers Eternity a Multiversal power as well.

i agree completely. 👆

This is just my take on it, but he also seemed to consider Eternity/Infinity/Living Tribunal as similar beings:
http://s1081.photobucket.com/user/igniz5/media/CKDarkHalfofEternity2.jpg.html?t=1303174639

👆 hard to say how he considered LT relative to the others but it's common knowledge here that LT>>eternity even if he sort of lumped them together.

I'm sorry Leo, but this stance doesn't make any sense to me in light of the evidence. I think the Chaos King absorbed the actual MULTIVERSE not the 616 and it's adjacent dimensions or anything. It's outright been said the Chaos King is a threat to all UNIVERSES and to reality itself on different occasions during that arc:
http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j351/igniz5/CKThreatensAllofRealities.jpg

lol no need to apologize. this stance you've taken is a difficult one to argue because you're arguing intent. it is your opinion that the writer intended that ck be a threat to ALL of marvel--past, present, future, alternates, everything, correct? if that's your stance, i can't really argue it. all i can do is indicate that the terms universes, realities, etc.... even multiverse, are ambiguous at best. for example--if for the sake of argument we use my own definition of a multiverse--ie, eternity represents the prime multiverse--then nothing in any of the scans is contradicted. there is no mention of alternates being threatened. there is no proof to indicate that was the scope of ck's power. he is apparently an aspect of an eternity level being. perhaps he was more powerful, maybe not. death's seeming fear is pretty impressive (btw does someone have that scan?)--lucifer treated death of the ENDLESS as a child. if we look at death (in marvel) as universal, death (endless) is a proven multiversal being. again, a vast difference in implied power.

I mean, even in the Oblivion story later on, it's outright said that the Chaos King came very close to the annihilation of everything (All Universes), further confirming it:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/17509358/mikoblivion.jpg.html

again, it's the terminology that i find mostly meaningless. all reality. all universes. all creation. reality. they're so overused and have been misused so often that they are almost devoid of meaning. in marvel though, we DO know that there are scopes of power BEYOND multiversal. LT oversees multiverseS. in their battle, beyonder and owen comment on myriad multiverseS. the omniverse has been confirmed many times as representing all multiverseS--that includes all universes and their alternates, past and present. was it intended that ck had absorbed 98% of the OMNIVERSE? not imo. if that's your opinion, 👆 it's just not something that is supported on panel, and it's not a scope i'm at all comfortable attributing to a being who started as a god, and is an aspect of a universal level being.

So as a result, I don't think there was any difference in scale between Lucifer and Mikaboshi at all. Not sure who wins the fight however.

cool. i see the difference in scale as that of the omniverse vs multiverse. it doesn't translate perfectly because of the set ups, but i think it's close enough, and a viable stance to take. i guess it boils down to the idea that there were clearer ways for the writer to indicate ck's scope of power. to me, it appears it stayed on, or about, the eternity level.

now, it's easy to say the writer didn't know about the omniverse, maybe he used multiverse to mean omniverse. maybe he intended eternity to represent the omniverse! lol who knows i suppose. read eternity's bio--he represents 'everything'. marvel and its terminology.....anyway, if that's your feeling, cool, can't really argue it. ck was powerful, no doubt. MAYBE greater than eternity. but even if he was, that by no means indicates he is on the level of power lucifer operates on. imo.