Originally posted by DigiCould that TP feat be used in a vs. battle? Perhaps not. I was just mentioning some of Luke's uber feats that I could recall.
Well, the galaxy-tp feat got brought up in here. He did it over the course of a week in deep meditation, and it was a summons, not anything with battle application. A range and scope feat, no doubt, but nothing that can be applied to a vs. battle for numerous reasons.I've also read the fight during the Dark Nest thing. He basically stood still during a Force push, then pinned the guy to a wall once he was finished. It's entirely unquantifiable, and outside of some obvious hyperbole in the narrative, we have nothing to gauge it by. I was aware of it but specifically didn't use it, because I know how badly I'd rip it up if it were me on the other end of a Luke vs. battle.
I don't remember the black hole feat - are you referring to manipulating the voids that the Vong ships create? My memory of the end of Unifying Force is also sketchy...I actually thought Jacen had the better showing there.
And Shatterpoints...that's just weakness detection, yeah? Nothing Karate Kid can't do.
It was stated (and I'm paraphrasing, as I am too lazy to look up the exact quote) that Luke was so deeply rooted in the force that he'd become the very idea of an immovable object-- not even the black hole at the center of the galaxy could have moved him. Given how powerful Luke was made to be in that era, I honestly don't consider that hyperbole in the slightest. He was a force god... Yeah, Jacen had a godly feat as well-- he actually became one with the force-- pure force energy. Luke has done that as well, though.
Luke manipulated the black holes produced by the Dovin Basals used in Vong ships... But they way I see it: a black hole is a black hole. Infinite gravity, and whatnot. /shrug
Shatterpoints are more than just weakness detection in objects, or w/e. They can also be used to find the 'breaking point' in people, objects, even entire events. Everything has a Shatterpoint. Luke could actually use the force to manipulate Shatterpoints-- not even Mace could do that.
At any rate, it's no biggie. Every feat you used on Luke's behalf didn't stretch the meta cap at all. It is just my opinion that if ALL of his feats would have been used, he'd be in the herald tier. /shrug
Originally posted by Galan007
Could that TP feat be used in a vs. battle? Perhaps not. I was just mentioning some of Luke's uber feats that I could recall.It was stated (and I'm paraphrasing, as I am too lazy to look up the exact quote) that Luke was so deeply rooted in the force that he'd become the very idea of an immovable object-- not even the black hole at the center of the galaxy could have moved him. Given how powerful Luke was made to be in that era, I honestly don't consider that hyperbole in the slightest. He was a force god... Yeah, Jacen had a godly feat as well-- he actually became one with the force-- pure force energy. Luke has done that as well, though.
Luke manipulated the black holes produced by the Dovin Basals used in Vong ships... But they way I see it: a black hole is a black hole. Infinite gravity, and whatnot. /shrug
Shatterpoints are more than just weakness detection in objects, or w/e. They can also be used to find the 'breaking point' in people, objects, even entire events. Everything has a Shatterpoint. Luke could actually use the force to manipulate Shatterpoints-- not even Mace could do that.
While an application of pseudo-real-world physics would tell us that the temporary Vong black holes are equivalent to regular ones, I think it's more than obvious that they weren't treated as such. Like you said, /shrug, but I personally think it's clear.
Endless Mike also seems to be on the pulse of the SW fandom more so than I, and it seems the consensus on the black hole quote is considered hyperbole.
TP feat - as mentioned, a non-feat in a vs. battle. No one will ever have a week to meditate calmly in a battle, and he also didn't do anything offensive with it. Xavier has way better feats, for example.
Shatterpoints are an interesting one - plot device-y to the extreme, but you have a point. Proving it in a battle would be tricky. And I'm still not sure that makes him low herald.
...
This is a variation of the conversation I had earlier in this thread. If you take his best 3-4 feats and interpret them in the best way possible, sure, he's potentially low herald. Imo he'd still get his ass beat at that level though, because the other 98% of his showings are mid-to-high meta. Shatterpoints and precog can't stop him from getting sh*t-stomped by a low herald who can wipe out cities with casual mid-level blasts. Like, no one's going to claim he stomps really good high metas (I may still lose to leo, for example). And would you pit him against, say, Firelord? It would probably be in danger of being closed for spite, except for a few clinging to the few feats you mentioned.
I think I did a good job of finding someone on the fringe of the tier without going over. But that's me.
Originally posted by DigiUsing his TK to slightly shift a planet off its axis, using his TK to control a black hole, using the force to find the weak point in anything (remember, Mace's use of Shatterpoint is how he bested Palpatine, who was =/> Yoda), using speed+electric judgment to own hundreds of Vong in rapid succession, etc. The majority of the time, Luke doesn't have to preform herald-level feats, because, well, there usually isn't a need to. However, any time he's needed to preform a feat of that magnitude, he's had no problem doing so. All feats considered, an argument for low-herald could absolutely be made, imo. But you're right-- on average most of his feats are meta-level, for reasons I mentioned above.
This is a variation of the conversation I had earlier in this thread. If you take his best 3-4 feats and interpret them in the best way possible, sure, he's potentially low herald. Imo he'd still get his ass beat at that level though, because the other 98% of his showings are mid-to-high meta. Shatterpoints and precog can't stop him from getting sh*t-stomped by a low herald who can wipe out cities with casual mid-level blasts. Like, no one's going to claim he stomps really good high metas (I may still lose to leo, for example). And would you pit him against, say, Firelord? It would probably be in danger of being closed for spite, except for a few clinging to the few feats you mentioned.I think I did a good job of finding someone on the fringe of the tier without going over. But that's me.
Either way, I thought you did a great job too (hence my vote.) At no point did you use a feat that was remotely questionable for this particular power tier. I was just giving my opinion on Luke's overall powerset to KT.
Originally posted by Galan007
Using his TK to slightly shift a planet off its axis, using his TK to control a black hole, using the force to find the weak point in anything (remember, Mace's use of Shatterpoint is how he bested Palpatine, who was =/> Yoda), using speed+electric judgment to own hundreds of Vong in rapid succession, etc. The majority of the time, Luke doesn't have to preform herald-level feats, because, well, there usually isn't a need to. However, any time he's needed to preform a feat of that magnitude, he's had no problem doing so. All feats considered, an argument for low-herald could absolutely be made, imo. But you're right-- on average most of his feats are meta-level, for reasons I mentioned above.Either way, I thought you did a great job too (hence my vote.) At no point did you use a feat that was remotely questionable for this particular power tier. I was just giving my opinion on Luke's overall powerset to KT.
Well, ok, but there's implications beyond this match. I'm glad my match with leo can be measured on a level playing field, but win or lose, I may have to retire Luke from this tier following the fight. It's unfortunate, too, because given what low heralds can do, Luke would come in near the bottom of that tier, making him nigh-unusable except as a potential addition to an amalgamation or balanced team at that level.
My goal was to pick someone who was high meta that could conceivably defend a title against anyone at high meta. Not an easy accomplishment, and Luke was my stab at it. Perhaps I overshot.
Also, when did the planet axis thing happen? Even a story arc or general details will help. My memory isn't great with these things, but I've read most of the EU stuff.
Thanks for your opinion though.
Originally posted by DigiI remember the planet feat very distinctly, but I just can't recall the specific novel it occurred in off hand. I'll dig through some stuff when I get home, and see if I can find it-- I'll PM you when/if I do.
Well, ok, but there's implications beyond this match. I'm glad my match with leo can be measured on a level playing field, but win or lose, I may have to retire Luke from this tier following the fight.Also, when did the planet axis thing happen? Even a story arc or general details will help. My memory isn't great with these things, but I've read most of the EU stuff.
Thanks for your opinion though.
I don't think using Luke in future meta-class matches would be argued (not even by me, and I'm pretty familiar with the SW mythos.) As you, in part, showed during this match, Luke's got a plethora of meta feats, and only a handful of feats exceeding that tier. So long as you didn't use feats that are blatantly over said cap (and they're pretty obvious), I really don't see the issue.
I think Luke is stronger than Digi thinks he is but weaker than Galan thinks he is.
By powerscaling he has outmatched people in tp (Kueller, Reborn Palpatine, etc.) who have mind****ed entire planetary populations (Byss, et al.) If it really came down to it I wouldn't put it past Luke to mind control/telepathically kill everyone on Earth simultaneously if he wanted to (RL Earth, not Marvel/DC earth with all of kinds of psionics and other powerful characters, etc.)
The Yuuzhan Vong Dovin Basal singularities are pretty obviously not real black holes, but they were capable of absorbing gigatons of firepower easily, so moving them around still counts for something. Also I think Luke had a feat of moving a bomb through space with tk at relativistic speeds, although I'm not sure how long it took him to accelerate it up to that speed.
I've never head of the planet-moving feat, although I know some Force users have done comparable things. Personally I would say that's a bit beyond Luke's pay grade.
If I had to estimate the maximum force he could apply with his TK, going all-out, I'd guess he could maybe lift a large mountain.
Precog and shatterpoints are very effective, his movement speed and short range combat I'd peg at double digit hypersonic at the very least. I really don't think he could react to someone attacking him at lightspeed without using precog (and even if he did use it it would only help so much, if the attacker was capable of changing directions on the fly).
He has some other esoteric powers like his illusions/concealment, Emerald Lightning (some people make this out to be some kind of automatic one-hit kill against anything, which I have seen no evidence for at all. I mean it's stronger than normal Force lightning obviously, but anyone with high enough durability/defenses could still resist it). His Fold Space power, which is tactically useful, although some people say he can do stuff like teleport a person's organs out of their bodies, or teleport his lightsaber inside their head, I have not seen evidence to substantiate this. I think he also knows Flow Walking, which is a very limited form of time travel that lets him project an image/thought pattern of himself into the past. I remember it also being claimed he had a power that would let him beat Darth Nihilus, but I forget what it was.
Overall, high Meta with some low Herald level feats.
Originally posted by Endless MikeI think you're overestimating where I rank Luke.
I think Luke is stronger than Digi thinks he is but weaker than Galan thinks he is.The Yuuzhan Vong Dovin Basal singularities are pretty obviously not real black holes, but they were capable of absorbing gigatons of firepower easily, so moving them around still counts for something.
I've never head of the planet-moving feat, although I know some Force users have done comparable things. Personally I would say that's a bit beyond Luke's pay grade
Overall, high Meta with some low Herald level feats.
The forces generated by Dovin Basals have always been likened to the forces of a black hole. And iirc, the fields generated by Dovin Basals have plucked ships out of hyperspace(ie. trans-light velocities.) So I agree... Luke manipulating those forces to his whim does count for something.
I am absolutely positive that Luke has shifted a planet's axis. I will try to find the specific novel/details later.
I agree with that ranking.
Originally posted by Galan007
At no point did you use a feat that was remotely questionable for this particular power tier.
hmm, while i agree with you--his feats were within tier--it also sounds like he was neutered (unintentionally) by digi if he is capable of throwing a planet out of orbit with the force. i think that's why digi is concerned about the pick. there is no neutering in this title thingy.....
Well, I have searched through a few novels and haven't been able to find the planet-shifting feat I mentioned. It irritates the heck out of me because I know for certain that I've read it.... Somewhere. 😠
At any rate, that feat may as well be excluded from the feats I mentioned on Luke's behalf. I cannot prove it exists.
I'm positive it happened, as I remember reading it very distinctly. I also remember that this feat took place in an obscure novel that Luke wasn't even part of, but was mentioned by one of his early students(it was only a few-sentence-long blurb, iirc.) I just don't recall if there were any extenuating circumstances, or what have you(don't think there were, though.)
Regardless, I can't figure out which book it happened in, so it doesn't matter anyway. Even sans that feat, I still believe(based on the other feats I/we mentioned) that Luke it a top-tier meta, with a few low herald feats.
Pending Galan's find, I'm not going to assume that planet thing counts toward his feats. I still think the few feats in question don't necessarily make him low herald, but I understand the concerns. Again, my goal was to pick a borderline character that didn't invalidate the tier but flirted with that line. I think I accomplished that.
Also, come out of retirement Scoob.
Originally posted by DigiI am no longer searching. As I mentioned above, I skimmed through a few books I thought the feat may have taken place in, but was unable to find it again. I am certain Luke preformed this feat, and that it was retold by one of his students in a very random/obscure novel. However, because I cannot prove its validity, it should be stricken from my list of feats.
Pending Galan's find, I'm not going to assume that planet thing counts toward his feats.