Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well according to Shadow Hunter to effectively wield a Saber Staff in combat you must already be a "Masterful" Combatant.
True. And it's not that I think Opress is a complete amateur, but I think it's been made fairly obvious that his mastery pales in comparison to his raw power.
Originally posted by MewlingQuim
And it's not that I think Opress is a complete amateur,
I do. Dooku at one point says that he has 'no technique.' Unless he trains and improves like crazy after that point, idk, I've only seen the review of that ep.
Originally posted by Nephthys
So? A Force-users true strength comes from the Force.
And what Savage doesn't have Force enhanced strength? And your just proving my point, because Vader's limbs are all mechanical so he will be relying on Physical strength in combat. Not force enhanced strength.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Do you have proof that Ben Kenobi was weaker than Obi-Wan?
According to Lucas Old Ben was not as good in dueling prowess as his younger self.
But unless you think Old Ben was stronger than his CW self, the point is moot.
Old Ben could handle Vader's strength, even though CW Obi-Wan can not handle Savage's. Either that or there's more to Savage than just strength.
Originally posted by Nephthys
And when exactly have we seen Opress use more agility than Vader?
When he leaped up and rolled into that ship that he hijacked in the episode "Brothers" maybe??
Originally posted by Nephthys
We are discussing physical strength here. This is the passage I am referencing:'He thought he was ready-and so the sheer severity of the opening blow took him by surprise.
A simple double stroke, up and then down, it contained enough power to jar his wrists and shoulders and very nearly disarm him completely. The collision of their lightsabers was blinding. He staggered backward and found himself at the center of a telekinetic storm. His Master seized on his momentary weakness and hurled missiles at him from all sides, hoping to keep him off his guard. For a moment, it worked.'
Again I point out that Marek can swing cannon's around like wiffelbats, something Savage has not shown in terms of physical strength. And yet Vader is described here as being Mareks physical superior, and yet Marek was able to adjust and counter his blows. Strength will not be enough to defeat him.
And again I'l point out Obi-Wan could handle Vader's "physical" strength and other abilities in Saber combat, but not Savage's.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Which is why he's so clumsy that he fell over in a duel just because he missed his opponent?
You mean sparring in his first training session with Count Dooku?? When he probably had no idea at all how to use the Force.
How about when he actually fought Count Dooku. Count Dooku himself had trouble handling Savage's strength. Savage put him on the floor in close combat at one point. Didn't seem overly clumsy to me by that point.
I doubt your going to argue Old Ben, who handled Vader just fine, is stronger than Count Dooku. Or that Count Dooku could not handle Vader's strength.
Savage has both Physical and Force Enhanced strength.And a ridiculous amount of both. And he is a trained warrior as well.
So far he's stomped Obi-Wan and Ventress in Saber combat. So unless you think Galen's Saber prowess is a league above theirs, I'm not sure what your argument is here..
That Obi-Wan and Ventress couldn't handle his strength... That even Count Dooku struggled against his strength... But for some reason Galen will hardly notice his strength?
Doubtful.
Originally posted by MewlingQuim
True. And it's not that I think Opress is a complete amateur, but I think it's been made fairly obvious that his mastery pales in comparison to his raw power.
I think it's skill in the Force he lacks.
For example he can not defend against Dooku's FL, something AOTC Obi-Wan can do. And yet of course AOTC Obi-Wan would be no match for Savage whatsoever in Sabers or in the Force.
I've already stated Galen will stomp Savage with his FL. Just like Count Dooku did (and still would).
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And what Savage doesn't have Force enhanced strength? And your just proving my point, because Vader's limbs are all mechanical so he will be relying on Physical strength in combat. Not force enhanced strength.
You were the one who said he lacks in mastery of the Force. And you think that having mechanical limbs maes him weaker than Savage? This is clearly not the case as high-class droids and droid limbs have been shown to be very strong in SW, as we see in Grievious and Anakin/Vader himself. Just like Force-Enhanced limbs, Mechanical limbs are superior to those of an ordinary human. So it doesn't make any difference really.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
According to Lucas Old Ben was not as good in dueling prowess as his younger self.But unless you think Old Ben was stronger than his CW self, the point is moot.
Old Ben could handle Vader's strength, even though CW Obi-Wan can not handle Savage's. Either that or there's more to Savage than just strength.
Who said anything about duelling, we're talking about force-enhanced strength. And Obi-Wan did grow in Force mastery after the CW.
Is that such an absurd posibility?
He could 'handle' it? Funny because I recall him losing that duel and dying. I'd call your example kind of flawed in the way you assume Obi-Wan was 'handling' Vader's attacks. Especially since they were just kinda tapping their lightsabers together in that duel and that Vader does appear to overpower Obi-Wan at various points. But then I seriously doubt Vader was going all-out in that fight.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
When he leaped up and rolled into that ship that he hijacked in the episode "Brothers" maybe??
I meant in combat. I hardly call that a vast superiority in that area.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And again I'l point out Obi-Wan could handle Vader's "physical" strength and other abilities in Saber combat, but not Savage's.
Again I'll point out that that it was different incarnations of Obi-Wan that did that and that Obi-Wan lost the duel in which he 'handled' Vader's physical strength.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You mean sparring in his first training session with Count Dooku?? When he probably had no idea at all how to use the Force.
Considering that Dookus insults his technique after that embarrasment I doubt it had much to do with his ability in the Force.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
How about when he actually fought Count Dooku. Count Dooku himself had trouble handling Savage's strength. Savage put him on the floor in close combat at one point. Didn't seem overly clumsy to me by that point.
Dookus spends the duel dodging him casually and the time you mention is the only time they cross-blades. He still seemed pretty clumsy.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I doubt your going to argue Old Ben, who handled Vader just fine, is stronger than Count Dooku. Or that Count Dooku could not handle Vader's strength.
You underestimate me.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Savage has both Physical and Force Enhanced strength.And a ridiculous amount of both. And he is a trained warrior as well.
And you have yet to prove that they equal to greater than Marek's. And ignore that Marek was a much better trained warrior.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So far he's stomped Obi-Wan and Ventress in Saber combat. So unless you think Galen's Saber prowess is a league above theirs, I'm not sure what your argument is here..
O RLY?
xFmbBQrLAmQ&feature=related
1.12
For all his great strength, Savage fails to overpower Ventress there. Is Ventress stronger than Vader and Marek now? Does A>B mean that A>C?
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
That Obi-Wan and Ventress couldn't handle his strength...
O RLY????
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
That even Count Dooku struggled against his strength... But for some reason Galen will hardly notice his strength?Doubtful.
Did I say hardly notice? I said that it would be insufficient to overwhelm him. Which I think I've offered ample evidence for.
Originally posted by Nephthys
You were the one who said he lacks in mastery of the Force.
I said he lacks "Skill" in the Force. But he's obviously has a lot of raw power in using things like Force Push, Choke and Force enhanced abilities.
Originally posted by Nephthys
And you think that having mechanical limbs maes him weaker than Savage?
Savage before learning to use the force, and before having his strength increased, was strong enough to punch into stone pillars and make dents.
According to "Restraint" the Nightsister magic increased his strength by 10 times. Add that to his Force enhanced abilities(with all his raw power in the force) and I'm guessing yeah he will have more "strength" than Mechanical Vader.
Originally posted by Nephthys
This is clearly not the case as high-class droids and droid limbs have been shown to be very strong in SW, as we see in Grievous and Anakin/Vader himself. Just like Force-Enhanced limbs, Mechanical limbs are superior to those of an ordinary human. So it doesn't make any difference really.
But it won't compare to a particularly tough Zabrak whose had his Strength Amped 10 times, and then on top of that has Force enhanced strength, coming from a lot of raw power in the Force.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Who said anything about duelling, we're talking about force-enhanced strength.
Strength which aids in dueling. Which is why many Jedi can not handle Grievous.
Originally posted by Nephthys
And Obi-Wan did grow in Force mastery after the CW.
When? This was the end of season 4 of the CW so I'm not sure how much time can be left until ROTS.
Of course it doesn't help Obi-Wan's case that he fought Savage along side Anakin Skywalker once, and together they both seemed to be on the defensive.
Clearly Savage has a great amount of strength which any Jedi would have difficulty with.
Originally posted by Nephthys
He could 'handle' it? Funny because I recall him losing that duel and dying. I'd call your example kind of flawed in the way you assume Obi-Wan was 'handling' Vader's attacks. Especially since they were just kinda tapping their lightsabers together in that duel and that Vader does appear to overpower Obi-Wan at various points. But then I seriously doubt Vader was going all-out in that fight.
Oh come on, we both know Vader won when Old Ben let Vader kill him.
As for the light taps, it's Lucas who said that's because neither of them are that good anymore in terms of dueling. So take it up with Lucas.
From the novel there's no indication Vader was holding back and though it does seem Vader was winning, there's absolutely no indication that Vader was just too strong for Old Ben to even handle.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Again I'll point out that that it was different incarnations of Obi-Wan that did that and that Obi-Wan lost the duel in which he 'handled' Vader's physical strength.
And again I'll point out that the different incarnation of Obi-Wan we're talking about is the weaker incarnation according to Lucas (in terms of dueling at least). So take it up with him. But what Lucas says is G-Canon.
And then it doesn't help your argument that even Count frigging Dooku was put on the floor by Savage's strength. Again is Old Ben stronger than Count Dooku? Or as strong as the combined might of CW Anakin plus Obi-Wan??
Originally posted by Nephthys
Considering that Dookus insults his technique after that embarrasment I doubt it had much to do with his ability in the Force.
I wouldn't speculate on the exact meaning of intimidation used during Sith training.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Dookus spends the duel dodging him casually and the time you mention is the only time they cross-blades. He still seemed pretty clumsy.
Stop low balling. It was his first training session. Where was all that in their actual combat when Savage's strength put Dooku on the floor. (And that before his Uber Force Rage mind you).
Originally posted by Nephthys
O RLY?xFmbBQrLAmQ&feature=related
1.12
For all his great strength, Savage fails to overpower Ventress there. Is Ventress stronger than Vader and Marek now? Does A>B mean that A>C?
O RLY????
Oh come one Neph! He already disarmed her once. Obi-Wan threw her another Saber, and then Obi-Wan and Ventress both admitted to being outmatched and ran for their lives. He's clearly a tier above her and Obi-Wan in Sabers.
And since I doubt his technique is above Ventress's it's clearly his Strength/Power was overpowering her.
And bear in mind this is the same Ventress who 3 episodes earlier tooled Grievous in a Saber fight. So she seemed to be just fine handling GG's mechanical strength, with all his Saber training, but was disarmed and admittedly out matched by Savage.. Hmmm..
Originally posted by Nephthys
Did I say hardly notice? I said that it would be insufficient to overwhelm him. Which I think I've offered ample evidence for.
Well no, you've provided evidence of Galen's strength feats and specualted that it would be enough to match/handle Savage's strength.
However you've ignored that Savage had the strength to put him a tier above Obi-Wan or Ventress, whilst Galen for all his strength could not disarm/overpower Shaaki Ti in Sabers.
Plus you've already provided me with evidence that Galen was staggered back by Vader's strength. Thanks for that 🙂
So I see personally see Savage's strength giving him significantly more trouble.
Espeically considering Savage's strength put the Anakin/Obi-Wan duo on the defense, despite their greater numbers and Anakin's immensely strong Mechanical arm on the duo's side.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I said he lacks "Skill" in the Force. But he's obviously has a lot of raw power in using things like Force Push, Choke and Force enhanced abilities.
I wasn't aware that skill wasn't a factor in those areas.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Savage before learning to use the force, and before having his strength increased, was strong enough to punch into stone pillars and make dents.According to "Restraint" the Nightsister magic increased his strength by 10 times. Add that to his Force enhanced abilities(with all his raw power in the force) and I'm guessingyeah he will have more "strength" than Mechanical Vader.
Highlight mine. Firstly we don't know if Savage was ever taught to increase his strength with the Force. We know that Dooku limited his training in the area of defence against Force Lightning, so its possible, if not probable that he would do the same in regards to Savage's already prodigious strength. Secondly we don't know whether its even possible for him to further increase his strength after already having it increased by Nightsister magic (which is just another aspect of the Force). Thirdly, Anakin has already shown that he can rip wardroids apart with his mechanical hand, so your assertion that he's stronger than an Anakin with more advanced cybernetics isn't as likely as you say. And lastly, Savage has already shown that he cannot even overpower Ventress in a saberlock. Again I ask, is Ventress stronger than Vader as well?
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But it won't compare to a particularly tough Zabrak whose had his Strength Amped 10 times, and then on top of that has Force enhanced strength, coming from a lot of raw power in the Force.
That is your opinion and its built upon a few faulty assumptions.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Strength which aids in dueling. Which is why many Jedi can not handle Grievous.
It merely aids in dueling, it is not the entire thing. Just because Old Kenobi was inferior overall in regards to dueling does not mean that he is inferior in all aspects.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
When? This was the end of season 4 of the CW so I'm not sure how much time can be left until ROTS.
Season 4 is still in the first year of the Clone Wars. 🙂
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Of course it doesn't help Obi-Wan's case that he fought Savage along side Anakin Skywalker once, and together they both seemed to be on the defensive.
Savage was in a unique berserker rage at the time.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Clearly Savage has a great amount of strength which any Jedi would have difficulty with.
Even Luke? 'Any Jedi' seems a bit extreme, plus Marek isn't even a Jedi so whatevs.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Oh come on, we both know Vader won when Old Ben let Vader kill him.
If Ben could have won or escaped he would have.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
As for the light taps, it's Lucas who said that's because neither of them are that good anymore in terms of dueling. So take it up with Lucas.From the novel there's no indication Vader was holding back and though it does seem Vader was winning, there's absolutely no indication that Vader was just too strong for Old Ben to even handle.
And that means that direct strength wouldn't have come much into it.
I havn't read the novel so I don't know. But we can see Vader pushing him around at one point.
But this point is meaningless. I've posted my proof of Vaders strength. Galen can physically manhandle large chunks of metal and swing them around. Vader can swing so hard that he almost disarms him and makes him stagger. If you're going to insist on ignoring these facts then whats the point of even discussing this?
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And again I'll point out that the different incarnation of Obi-Wan we're talking about is the weaker incarnation according to Lucas (in terms of dueling at least). So take it up with him. But what Lucas says is G-Canon.
Weaker overall does not mean weaker physically. It is not illogical that Obi-Wan was able to amp his strength to match Vaders.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And then it doesn't help your argument that even Count frigging Dooku was put on the floor by Savage's strength. Again is Old Ben stronger than Count Dooku? Or as strong as the combined might of CW Anakin plus Obi-Wan??
Why wouldn't he be? Dooku is older than Ben. And your point is ludicrous. Is Ventress stronger than Dooku? Or as strong as the combined might of Anakin and Obi-Wan?
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I wouldn't speculate on the exact meaning of intimidation used during Sith training.
Thats extremely disingenuous of you. It was said during lightsaber training and Dooku directly references his technique right after Savage unbalanced and fell over by mistiming a swing. What the hell else could he be talking about?
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Stop low balling. It was his first training session. Where was all that in their actual combat when Savage's strength put Dooku on the floor. (And that before his Uber Force Rage mind you).
You tell me.
Where was it? I'd say in all the times Dooku danced around Savage's blade and made him look like a buffoon.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Oh come one Neph! He already disarmed her once.
By punching her in the head. Not through overpowering her.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Obi-Wan threw her another Saber, and then Obi-Wan and Ventress both admitted to being outmatched and ran for their lives. He's clearly a tier above her and Obi-Wan in Sabers.
Obi-Wan was injured at the time. They had a handicap in that fight.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And since I doubt his technique is above Ventress's it's clearly his Strength/Power was overpowering her.
Which is odd since as I showed you HE DIDN'T OVERPOWER HER AT ANY POINT IN THE FIGHT.
Except maybe when he punched her in the bum. That looked kinda painful. mmm
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And bear in mind this is the same Ventress who 3 episodes earlier tooled Grievous in a Saber fight. So she seemed to be just fine handling GG's mechanical strength, with all his Saber training, but was disarmed and admittedly out matched by Savage.. Hmmm..
Which would only matter if Grievous was stronger than Marek as well. Just how many people do you place above him anyway? Hey, Kit Fisto beat Grievous as well, he must be better than Galen too!
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well no, you've provided evidence of Galen's strength feats and specualted that it would be enough to match/handle Savage's strength.
Which it would.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
However you've ignored that Savage had the strength to put him a tier above Obi-Wan or Ventress, whilst Galen for all his strength could not disarm/overpower Shaaki Ti in Sabers.
Galen had just fought through the felucian jungle and its force-sensitive inhabitants. Plus he wore her out enough that she was forced to do a suicide attack in an effort to beat him.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Plus you've already provided me with evidence that Galen was staggered back by Vader's strength. Thanks for that 🙂So I see personally see Savage's strength giving him significantly more trouble.
Espeically considering Savage's strength put the Anakin/Obi-Wan duo on the defense, despite their greater numbers and Anakin's immensely strong Mechanical arm on the duo's side.
You're welcome. Unlike some people I don't ignore the facts that seemingly hurt my case. Oh, and by the way, Galen then goes on to defeat Vader in lightsaber combat. 🙂
I don't, since you've failed to prove that Savage is stronger than Vader.
Again, Savage was in a berserker rage. Is he in one in this fight as well? I don't think so.
Oh Nephthys I'm so going to give it to you now. I won't respond to EVERYTHING, because the responses are getting too long for my taste. But I'm going to particularly nail you for misrepresenting the CW fights to favor your argument!
Originally posted by NephthysHighlight mine. Firstly we don't know if Savage was ever taught to increase his strength with the Force. We know that Dooku limited his training in the area of defence against Force Lightning, so its possible, if not probable that he would do the same in regards to Savage's already prodigious strength. Secondly we don't know whether its even possible for him to further increase his strength after already having it increased by Nightsister magic (which is just another aspect of the Force). Thirdly, Anakin has already shown that he can
Blah blah. So Count Dooku seemed to have taught Savage pretty much nothing then??!
Fine let's just go by his total strength shown, and ignore the source of that strength.
Originally posted by Nephthys
rip wardroids apart with his mechanical hand, so your assertion that he's stronger than an Anakin with more advanced cybernetics isn't as likely as you say.
And yet Savage held both Obi-Wan and Anakin (with his cybernetic arm) at bay. Seemingly even putting them on the defensive.
Count Dooku also held off Anakin's 2 arms (cybernetic included) with one frigging hand.. And his left hand at that (in CW movie).
And yet the same Count (as powerful as he is) seemingly COULD NOT hold off Savage's great strength (when it came to actual combat, and after Savage's training).
So it seems as strong as Anakin's cybernetic arm is, Savage is stronger.
Originally posted by Nephthys
And lastly, Savage has already shown that he cannot even overpower Ventress in a saberlock. Again I ask, is Ventress stronger than Vader as well?
I'm so gonna nail you on this one. Just wait.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Season 4 is still in the first year of the Clone Wars. 🙂
Get outta here! Where did you get this from? It's only been planned for 5 seasons. Might last longer (maybe 6/7) if the ratings are good.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Savage was in a unique berserker rage at the time.
What was unique about it? I do get tired of this excuse to undermine Savage's feats. He was trained by Dooku to feed off his hate. And by the end of that episode he had a lot of hate in him to feed off. Hate towards Ventress, Dooku, the Jedi, pretty much everyone.
I could also point out to you every time Galen achieved an uber feat he seemed to make a momentary enhanced connection to the Force. Even when he was fighting Vader I think. So I guess that nullfies Marek's best feats and his win over Vader right?
Originally posted by Nephthys
But this point is meaningless. I've posted my proof of Vaders strength. Galen can physically manhandle large chunks of metal and swing them around. Vader can swing so hard that he almost disarms him and makes him stagger.
You've given proof of Vader's strength (as if I didn't know he was strong) but the comparisons of Vader's and Savage's strength in comparison to other Jedi favors Savage.
(Btw I want the passage in the novel where Galen physically rips out large chunks of metal. Because I don't recall that. Remember gameplay DOES NOT COUNT)
Yes Vader can swing so hard that he "ALMOST" disarms Galen, whilst Savage swings so hard that "HE DOES" disarm and put to the floor Count frigging Dooku! The guy who holds off Anakin's cybernetic and biological arm with one hand!
He also Staggers and DOES disarm Kenobi within a few seconds of his Powerful blows. And this is the guy whose The Master of a form specifically designed for defending oneself.
Originally posted by Nephthys
If you're going to insist on ignoring these facts then whats the point of even discussing this?
DON'T GO THERE! I've not ignored anything. I've countered all those points. You on the other hand are either ignoring, misrepresenting or just plain out making excuses for all of Savage's domination of very formidable opponents, mainly due to his great strength and raw power.
If on the other hand you want to give up this argument because you know I'm making better and more substantiated arguments than you, then by all means your welcome to throw in the towel.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Why wouldn't he be? Dooku is older than Ben. And your point is ludicrous. Is Ventress stronger than Dooku? Or as strong as the combined might of Anakin and Obi-Wan?
Sooooo gonna nail you!
Originally posted by Nephthys
Thats extremely disingenuous of you. It was said during [b]lightsaber training and Dooku directly references his technique right after Savage unbalanced and fell over by mistiming a swing. What the hell else could he be talking about?[/B]
And yet the same Dooku is absolutely shitting his pants that Savage is out there.
Ok now time for me to start screwing you:
Originally posted by Nephthys
You tell me.Where was it? I'd say in all the times Dooku danced around Savage's blade and made him look like a buffoon.
You really missed it? Well Savage does do it pretty damn fast, so I'l help you out.
First notice how Ventress's one on one with Dooku gets her kicked to the floor pretty damn fast.
Savage takes the odd swing in between Ventress's one on one but the Legendary Count dodges him.
But the part we're discussing, Savage and Dooku's one on one begins at 1:20 in the video you've kindly posted.
Savage engages Dooku in a one on one at 1:20.
From 1:20 through to 1:22 Dooku dodges and purposefully avoids Savage's strikes. So that's a whole 2-3 seconds.
Then at 1:23 they connect blades. The second they connect blades Dooku is FLOORED and DISARMED of his weapon. If you want to see his state at this point go to 1:25 and freeze frame.
Dooku's lying there on the floor, not looking very well at all, with no weapon in his hand.
But then a Sith Lord is never weaponless, so uses his FL to floor Savage. From that point onwards Dooku keeps using his FL to keep Savage at bay. But in the actual close combat/lightsaber combat Dooku got floored, and would have been in serious trouble if not for his FL.
Btw I'm not saying he would necessarily be beaten without his FL, but he sure wasn't in any position to be mocking Savage at that point.
So you were saying about clumsiness and sloppiness??
Wow wow wow. Now this is where I uber screw you and your selective vision of this fight:
Originally posted by Nephthys
By punching her in the head. Not through overpowering her.
What! So punching her's not overpowering her?! So I guess Mace never overpowered Sidious then because he kicked him!
Go to 0:38-0:39 in the video you've so kindly posted.
She kicks him (just prior) then he swings around her (kind of putting an end to the idea that he's got any lack of mobility) and then pushes her onto the floor. She then gets disarmed.
How is that not overpowering her? He then has a clear opportunity to stab her in the back, but chooses to grab her and start throwing her around instead.
Which goes onto your supposed "he couldn't overpower her in a Saber lock" bull crap.
Oh and btw they didn't start clashing Sabers until the 0:25 mark. So it took Savage a whole 13-14 seconds to have Ventress disarmed and defeated. And yes he did overpower her. Through Great strength? Probably. But he clearly doesn't lack mobility or fighting skills either.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Obi-Wan was injured at the time. They had a handicap in that fight.
This is a rather strange conclusion to come to considering Maul just got new cybernetic legs put on him (ones he was having trouble standing on earlier the same episode), and likely hadn't been in a real Lightsbaber fight for the past 10+ years.
Whilst Obi-Wan was just slapped around a bit, then took a bit of a nap.
So which side was handicapped again?
Originally posted by Nephthys
Which is odd since as I showed you [b]HE DIDN'T OVERPOWER HER AT ANY POINT IN THE FIGHT.Except maybe when he punched her in the bum. That looked kinda painful. mmm [/B]
Didn't overpower her? Oh my friggin God! What fight are you watching. He does overpower her 13 seconds into the fight. Disarms her of her weapon.
Oh and the Saber lock you claim he's not overpowering her in, go back to the scene. Just before Obi-Wan throws her another Lightsaber, she's standing. As soon as they enage Sabers go to 1:15! She's on her frigging knees due to him being too Strong for her in that Saber lock.
It's not too long after that, her and Obi-Wan agree they're outmatched and Leg it!
So don't try twisting scenes to add yo your argument. You would only do that if your argument was lacking, and needed something extra which you couldn't supply.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Galen had just fought through the felucian jungle and its force-sensitive inhabitants. Plus he wore her out enough that she was forced to do a suicide attack in an effort to beat him.
Excuses. If he had comparable strength to Savage he would have disarmed her in seconds. Just like Savage did to both Obi-Wan and Ventress. I doubt your going to argue Shaak-Ti is above them. Oh and this is Shaak-Ti who seemingly could not handle Grievous's strength.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Oh Nephthys I'm so going to give it to you now. I won't respond to EVERYTHING, because the responses are getting too long for my taste. But I'm going to particularly nail you for misrepresenting the CW fights to favor your argument!
Please. Don't make promises your fingers can't keep.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Blah blah. So Count Dooku seemed to have taught Savage pretty much nothing then??!Fine let's just go by his total strength shown, and ignore the source of that strength.
How long did they train, a few weeks, if that? Opress learnt how to wield a lightsaber without tripping up and how to use telekinesis. Learning anything beyond that would have been unrealistic.
Thats fine by me.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And yet Savage held both Obi-Wan and Anakin (with his cybernetic arm) at bay. Seemingly even putting them on the defensive.
Count Dooku also held off Anakin's 2 arms (cybernetic included) with one frigging hand.. And his left hand at that (in CW movie).
In a berserker rage. And we know that when someone completely taps into his rage he can be granted an extreme boost of power and strength, like when Luke went ballistic and overpowered Vader.
As for Dooku, the novel describes him as having to draw heavily on the Force to block Anakin's attacks, yet eventually he gets worn out and overwhelmed. It specifies Dooku's shock at Anakin's amazing strength in particular.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And yet the same Count (as powerful as he is) seemingly COULD NOT hold off Savage's great strength (when it came to actual combat, and after Savage's training).So it seems as strong as Anakin's cybernetic arm is, Savage is stronger.
And yet the same Savage seemingly COULD NOT overpower Asajj Ventress in a direct saberlock with his 'great strength.' Likewise in the fight I've posted we can see Obi-Wan as well as Ventress again blocking Opress' lightsaber and not getting blown away. One could almost say they were 'handling' his strength.
Is it not possible that Dooku was simply taken by surprise by Savage's brute strength? That makes the most sense to me. Otherwise why did he not get blown back by Ventress' attacks since she can handle Opress' strength?
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I'm so gonna nail you on this one. Just wait.
I look forward to being nailed, as always.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Get outta here! Where did you get this from? It's only been planned for 5 seasons. Might last longer (maybe 6/7) if the ratings are good.
The first episode of season 4, Water War, depicts the Se cond Battle of Mon Calamari, which occurs in the year 21 bby, only a year into the Clone Wars (22-19 bby). So did the Battle of Umbara, also of season 4. So your argument is false, as Obi-Wan would have easily have grown in power (and strength) in the remaining 2 years of the Clone Wars. The Obi-Wan we see being 'overpowered' is one barely out of AotC.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
What was unique about it? I do get tired of this excuse to undermine Savage's feats. He was trained by Dooku to feed off his hate. And by the end of that episode he had a lot of hate in him to feed off. Hate towards Ventress, Dooku, the Jedi, pretty much everyone.I could also point out to you every time Galen achieved an uber feat he seemed to make a momentary enhanced connection to the Force. Even when he was fighting Vader I think. So I guess that nullfies Marek's best feats and his win over Vader right?
He went ballistic and tried to kill everyone, pulling a Luke Skywalker and gaining a temperary boost in abilities. We don't put Luke above Vader just like we shouldn't put Savage on a lofty tier because of what he did while consumed with rage.
All he did in that fight was stop being so pissed off at Vader, which was throwing him off his game.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You've given proof of Vader's strength (as if I didn't know he was strong) but the comparisons of Vader's and Savage's strength in comparison to other Jedi favors Savage.(Btw I want the passage in the novel where Galen physically rips out large chunks of metal. Because I don't recall that. Remember gameplay DOES NOT COUNT)
Yes Vader can swing so hard that he "ALMOST" disarms Galen, whilst Savage swings so hard that "HE DOES" disarm and put to the floor Count frigging Dooku! The guy who holds off Anakin's cybernetic and biological arm with one hand!
He also Staggers and DOES disarm Kenobi within a few seconds of his Powerful blows. And this is the guy whose The Master of a form specifically designed for defending oneself.
Nuh-uh.
Gameplay does count in some instances. Such as QTE's or cutscenes. Galen did it in a QTE, but I can't be bothered to find it. I posted it in one of my old debates with LeGenD, so maybe I'll hunt for it later. Heres another strength feat I remembered of him throwing a TIE fighter. (3.15)
When surprised. Considering that Ventress and Obi-Wan have both done better than Dooku did in that one instance, I see no other explanation.
When surprised (are we noticing a pattern). In the fight later Obi-Wan blocks multiple swings from Savage without any visible strain.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
DON'T GO THERE! I've not ignored anything. I've countered all those points. You on the other hand are either ignoring, misrepresenting or just plain out making excuses for all of Savage's domination of very formidable opponents, mainly due to his great strength and raw power.If on the other hand you want to give up this argument because you know I'm making better and more substantiated arguments than you, then by all means your welcome to throw in the towel.
Thanks for the offer. I'll take it under advisement.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Sooooo gonna nail you!
I'm tingling with anticipation.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And yet the same Dooku is absolutely shitting his pants that Savage is out there.
The same Dooku who was defeated and captured by pirates?
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Ok now time for me to start screwing you:
Oh man, here it comes!
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You really missed it? Well Savage does do it pretty damn fast, so I'l help you out.First notice how Ventress's one on one with Dooku gets her kicked to the floor pretty damn fast.
Savage takes the odd swing in between Ventress's one on one but the Legendary Count dodges him.
But the part we're discussing, Savage and Dooku's one on one begins at 1:20 in the video you've kindly posted.
Savage engages Dooku in a one on one at 1:20.
From 1:20 through to 1:22 Dooku dodges and purposefully avoids Savage's strikes. So that's a whole 2-3 seconds.
Then at 1:23 they connect blades. The second they connect blades Dooku is FLOORED and DISARMED of his weapon. If you want to see his state at this point go to 1:25 and freeze frame.
Dooku's lying there on the floor, not looking very well at all, with no weapon in his hand.
But then a Sith Lord is never weaponless, so uses his FL to floor Savage. From that point onwards Dooku keeps using his FL to keep Savage at bay. But in the actual close combat/lightsaber combat Dooku got floored, and would have been in serious trouble if not for his FL.
Btw I'm not saying he would necessarily be beaten without his FL, but he sure wasn't in any position to be mocking Savage at that point.
So you were saying about clumsiness and sloppiness??
... oh, that.
Well yeah of course I saw that. We've been pretty openly discussing it already. Like I said Dooku tried to engage him and was taken by surprise by his sheer strength. Nothing else makes sense. As for clumsiness and sloppiness, what exactly were you trying to prove? Savage didn't overcome Dooku in a dazzling display of skill. He bruteforced his way and got lucky. Dooku still made him look like as graceful as a 3-footed elephant.
That was kind of a letdown.....
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Wow wow wow. Now this is where I uber screw you and your selective vision of this fight:
Man, I hope so. I'm feeling pretty blueballs'ed at this point.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
What! So punching her's not overpowering her?! So I guess Mace never overpowered Sidious then because he kicked him!
Not really.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Go to 0:38-0:39 in the video you've so kindly posted.She kicks him (just prior) then swings around her (kind of putting an end to the idea that he's got any lack of mobility) and then pushes her onto the floor. She then gets disarmed.
How is that not overpowering her? He then has a clear opportunity to stab her in the back, but chooses to grab her and start throwing her around instead.
Well because he didn't 'overpower' her. There was no contest of strength. There was no resisting power for him to overpower. He just smashes her into a crate really hard and she drops her lightsaber.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Which goes onto your supposed "he couldn't overpower her in a Saber lock" bull crap.
How is it bullcrap? He couldn't. I showed you that he couldn't. Do you need me to post it again/get glasses?
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Oh and btw they didn't start clashing Sabers until the 0:25 mark. So it took Savage a whole 13-14 seconds to have Ventress disarmed and defeated. And yes he did overpower her. Through Great strength? Probably. But he clearly doesn't lack mobility or fighting skills either.
No, he didn't. Also I'll point out that she was quite disadvantaged in that fight with the limited space and the fact that she needs to cover Obi-Wan's back. She couldn't use her acrobatic style and she only had a single lightsaber. It was hardly a true test of their respective abilities.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
This is a rather strange conclusion to come to considering Maul just got new cybernetic legs put on him (ones he was having trouble standing on earlier the same episode), and likely hadn't been in a real Lightsbaber fight for the past 10+ years.Whilst Obi-Wan was just slapped around a bit, then took a bit of a nap.
So which side was handicapped again?
Slapped around? He was beaten unconscious. Twice! While it was true that Maul was probably not up to form Obi-Wan had the more severe handicap.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Didn't overpower her? Oh my friggin God! What fight are you watching. He does overpower her 13 seconds into the fight. Disarms her of her weapon.
No, he does not.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Oh and the Saber lock you claim he's not overpowering her in, go back to the scene. Just before Obi-Wan throws her another Lightsaber, she's standing. As soon as they enage Sabers go to 1:15! She's on her frigging knees due to him being too Strong for her in that Saber lock.
Probably from the inertia from his leaping attack. After that he fails to make her lightsaber budge an inch despite as you so politely pointed out, her being on her knees.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It's not too long after that, her and Obi-Wan agree they're outmatched and Leg it!So don't try twisting scenes to add yo your argument. You would only do that if your argument was lacking, and needed something extra which you couldn't supply.
Again, Obi-Wan had just been beaten into unconsciousness twice and Ventress was disadvantaged as well.
Or if your argument was so poor that I could find a million holes in it to twist. 😉
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Excuses. If he had comparable strength to Savage he would have disarmed her in seconds. Just like Savage did to both Obi-Wan and Ventress. I doubt your going to argue Shaak-Ti is above them. Oh and this is Shaak-Ti who seemingly could not handle Grievous's strength.
No, this is Shaak-Ti 15 years after the Clone Wars. With a Saarlac. On a planet she had affected on, well, a planetary scale. And he still won.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Btw Neph you claiming Savage was only able to hold off Obi-Wan and Aankin together in Sabers due to a Force Rage Boost, would actually just prove Savage does in fact have Force enhanced strength.Because a Force rage boost would not make him physically stronger.
Yes, because rage has never made a person stronger before.
Luke Skywalker? Who the hell is that!?
Ok Neph you've made ma laugh out loud, I'l give you props there.
Will start off with your second post, because it's just baffling me 😮
Originally posted by NephthysWell because he didn't 'overpower' her. There was no contest of strength. There was no resisting power for him to overpower. He just smashes her into a crate really hard and she drops her lightsaber.
How exactly is smashing her into a crate Not overpowering her?!
Originally posted by Nephthys
How is it bullcrap? He couldn't. I showed you that he couldn't. Do you need me to post it again/get glasses?
And I told you watch more carefully. When she gets her Saber she's standing. Freeze frame at 1:15 and their Saber lock has put her on her knees.
Did he finish her off at that point? No. Was he overpowering her? Yes of course he was. Unless you think she purposefully got onto her knees.
Originally posted by Nephthys
No, he didn't. Also I'll point out that she was quite disadvantaged in that fight with the limited space and the fact that she needs to cover Obi-Wan's back. She couldn't use her acrobatic style and she only had a single lightsaber. It was hardly a true test of their respective abilities.
What are you talking about? It was on 2 on 2. Savage also needed to watch his brothers back (considering he is a cripple). She had plenty of room to jump about, as Maul and Obi-Wan were, and Maul even had room for acrobatics, so there's no excuse for Ventress.
As for her single Lightsaber.. Well so what? Maul also didn't have his Saber staff. Savage disarmed and defeated Obi-Wan earlier with just a single Saber, even though he prefers a Saber Staff.
Your making poor excuses for a clearly inferior duo.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Slapped around? He was beaten unconscious. Twice! While it was true that Maul was probably not up to form Obi-Wan had the more severe handicap.
Oh my frigging GOD! Maul actually WAS A HANDICAP! How does being slapped around compare to having just got handicap legs that week, and compare to a guy whose not even been in a Saber fight for 10+ years! Sweet Jesus!
And Jedi tend to recover from slaps pretty quickly 😛
Some quick replys to your main points from your first post:
Originally posted by NephthysHow long did they train, a few weeks, if that? Opress learnt how to wield a lightsaber without tripping up and how to use telekinesis. Learning anything beyond that would have been unrealistic.
In a berserker rage. And we know that when someone completely taps into his rage he can be granted an extreme boost of power and strength, like when Luke went ballistic and overpowered Vader.
You can't have it both ways Neph. If his berserker rage increased his strength then he obviously has Force enhanced strength on top of his already tremendous physical strength. That's probably why he overpowers people who are far more skilled than him in the Force (Obi-Wan/Ventress).
As for the Berserker Rage thing. Well I would point out to you it lasted a lot longer than Luke's. And unlike Luke he was trained to gain power from his Rage. And the reasons for his rage have not gone away.
This from Dave Filoni on the Force Cast interview :
"Opress is a very poorly trained dark side wielder. He's just all Rage and Power. He's kind of like the Hulk. But he lacks discipline and know-how"
So Berserker Rage is just how this guy rolls Neph.
Besides do you really think him holding off Obi-Wan and Anakin in Sabers is substantially more powerful than his overpowering Obi-Wan in a few strikes?
Originally posted by Nephthys
And yet the same Savage seemingly COULD NOT overpower Asajj Ventress in a direct saberlock with his 'great strength.'
Don't be purposefully blind Neph. I've already pointed out to you that Saber lock brought her to her knees. Why are you ignoring that? You claimed before you don't ignore evidences that might hurt your argument.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Likewise in the fight I've posted we can see Obi-Wan as well as Ventress again blocking Opress' lightsaber and not getting blown away. One could almost say they were 'handling' his strength.
Then why does he overpower and disarm them both in approx 15 seconds? I doubt it's superior technique. It's obviously down to strength.
And I never claimed he can defeat/disarm anyone/everyone in one strike! Lol.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Is it not possible that Dooku was simply taken by surprise by Savage's brute strength? That makes the most sense to me. Otherwise why did he not get blown back by Ventress' attacks since she can handle Opress' strength?
No he can't have been taken by surprise by his strength simply because he trained him.
It's more likely Dooku was tiring from dodging both of them.
I never claimed Savage would take Dooku in Sabers in a one on one.
What I claimed is, that he's so strong that he's capable of Flooring Dooku and would pose a serious threat to him in close combat simply due to his tremendous strength.
Originally posted by Nephthys
The first episode of season 4, Water War, depicts the Se cond Battle of Mon Calamari, which occurs in the year 21 bby, only a year into the Clone Wars (22-19 bby). So did the Battle of Umbara, also of season 4. So your argument is false, as Obi-Wan would have easily have grown in power (and strength) in the remaining [b]2 years of the Clone Wars. The Obi-Wan we see being 'overpowered' is one barely out of AotC. [/B]
I can see how you made the effort to cleverly come to that conclusion, but I'm afraid your wrong Neph.
Dave Filoni in that same interview stated the 4th season of CW is into the latter half of the clone wars. He called the half way point around the time the Jedi switched costumes.
He's says you can tell it's getting closer to ROTS by the costumes and the way the clone troopers look.
So I'm afraid this Obi-Wan who got comfortably Overpowered by Savage is closer to ROTS Kenobi than you'd like to think.
Originally posted by Nephthys
The same Dooku who was defeated and captured by pirates?
I'm not sure what your getting at here Neph.
Dooku was ambushed by 30 armed pirates, and did not have his Lightsaber.
In the commentary of that episode Filoni says "yes Count Dooku is Extremely powerful but pure numbers defeat the Jedi."
And yet Dooku's not outnumbered by Savage. He's one guy. And he's peeing in his pants that he's out there. Hmmm. I wonder what that means. Could it be because the guy is Uber Strong and Uber Powerful?
Interestingly I don't remember Dooku peeing his pants when Ventress escaped him.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And yet Dooku's not outnumbered by Savage. He's one guy. And he's peeing in his pants that he's out there. Hmmm. I wonder what that means. Could it be because the guy is Uber Strong and Uber Powerful?Interestingly I don't remember Dooku peeing his pants when Ventress escaped him.
Not sure I noticed any pee stains. Dooku expressing some concern that Savage is still roaming around out there is hardly the same as peeing in his pants DP.
