Just found a couple of videos I want to add:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGpmRhS49sM
0:40 onwards shows Opress's combat skills even before training from Count Dooku.
Notice also how he seems to be able to match Ventress in strength, speed and agility. (What's not shown in this video is his punches were powerful enough to make dents in that stone cube/pillar).
And that was before he gets his 10 times Amp in strength from the Nightsister magic.
Once he gets his Amp we can see at 1:05 that Ventress clearly can not handle Opress's strength. He's strangling her with one hand, and she can't stop him with both her hands.
Then there's this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7nyUkxDABE
At 0:18- 0:25 after both Anakin and Obi-Wan have jumped him, it's made clear even combined they're no match for his strength.
Originally posted by Zampanó
that's not fair; pulling at a wrist will NEVER break a hold like that. basic realism.
Really? Cause I'm betting if someone of similar strength to me tried choking me with One hand, I could easily pull his hand off me using Both my hands. (Even from his wrist). If I couldn't then I can guarantee the guy is A LOT stronger than I am. More strength than I can handle anyway.
Plus I already posted him matching her in strength before his Amp, and how he was able to punch holes in stone. Multiply that strength by 10, and it doesn't suprise me Ventress had no power to stop his one hand choking her.
Notice also how she hits him when he hesitates to kill his brother. He doesn't even feel it. It would seem to me that without the aid of any weapons she would not be capable of hurting him.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Thats an issue of durability, not strength.And again, we have on-screen proof of her matching his strength in a saberlock.
No we don't. It brought her to her knees.
And what the hell, if he ever gets in a Saber lock, it means he's not stronger than that person?! It might take him some time to overpower them.
But less than 20 seconds against both her and Obi-Wan is a pretty damn good overpowering.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Ok Neph you've made ma laugh out loud, I'l give you props there.Will start off with your second post, because it's just baffling me 😮
I aim to please. And I serve publicly and privately. 😉
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
How exactly is smashing her into a crate Not overpowering her?!
Just how I told you. He shoved her in the head from behind. Have you ever been soved from behind? Its not something you can really resist. As I said, he didn't overpower her. There was no power from her for him to overwhelm. Its like saying that Maul overpowered Qui-Gon by smacking him with his hilt, or because Obi-Wan kicked Anakin over that he 'overpowered' him. It just doesn't work that way.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And I told you watch more carefully. When she gets her Saber she's standing. Freeze frame at 1:15 and their Saber lock has put her on her knees.Did he finish her off at that point? No. Was he overpowering her? Yes of course he was. Unless you think she purposefully got onto her knees.
I watch plenty close. Maybe you should take your own advice. Savage used a leaping strike, which would have increased the momentum and force of his saber, in the initial strike, which drove her to her knees. However, afterwards, when it was just his strength against hers, he was unable to overwhelm her. You can't get past that, thats ironclad proof, right there on the screen.
I hope you can see the hypocrisy here. Vader failing of overpower Obi-Wan proves that he isn't as strong as Opress, but Opress failing t ooverpower Ventress doesn't mean diddly squat? I'm sorry, but I call bullshit. Bullshit has been called.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
What are you talking about? It was on 2 on 2. Savage also needed to watch his brothers back (considering he is a cripple). She had plenty of room to jump about, as Maul and Obi-Wan were, and Maul even had room for acrobatics, so there's no excuse for Ventress.As for her single Lightsaber.. Well so what? Maul also didn't have his Saber staff. Savage disarmed and defeated Obi-Wan earlier with just a single Saber, even though he prefers a Saber Staff.
Your making poor excuses for a clearly inferior duo.
Except Mauls back was nowhere near Opress. Ventress had to block and engage Savage or he would have been able to hit Obi-Wan. If she played keep away like Dooku did, he would have hit her partner, or just go after him flat-out. If she fought him properly, I doubt the fight would have been the same. It's only logical, Dooku wasn't dodging her strikes with ease, she clearly has the edge in skill over Opress and he hasn't recieved any training since he turned on her, so he couldn't have caught up either.
Maul was trained to use a single saber just as much as a saberstaff. Remember that he defeated Obi-Wan the first time with a single.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Oh my frigging GOD! Maul actually WAS A HANDICAP! How does being slapped around compare to having just got handicap legs that week, and compare to a guy whose not even been in a Saber fight for 10+ years! Sweet Jesus!And Jedi tend to recover from slaps pretty quickly 😛
Maul's been moving around with mechanical legs for all of those 10 years and he was shown to adjust to them rapidly on-screen. Also, who cares? We're arguing Opress, not Maul here.
Again, he was beaten unconscious twice. You don't recover from that quickly.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You can't have it both ways Neph. If his berserker rage increased his strength then he obviously has Force enhanced strength on top of his already tremendous physical strength. That's probably why he overpowers people who are far more skilled than him in the Force (Obi-Wan/Ventress).As for the Berserker Rage thing. Well I would point out to you it lasted a lot longer than Luke's. And unlike Luke he was trained to gain power from his Rage. And the reasons for his rage have not gone away.
This from Dave Filoni on the Force Cast interview :
"Opress is a very poorly trained dark side wielder. He's just all Rage and Power. He's kind of like the Hulk. But he lacks discipline and know-how"
So Berserker Rage is just how this guy rolls Neph.
Besides do you really think him holding off Obi-Wan and Anakin in Sabers is substantially more powerful than his overpowering Obi-Wan in a few strikes?
Erm, what? No. We've seen that anger than make a powerful force user lash out in the Force and gain improved physical abilities many times before. Zannah snapped two Jedi's necks without thinking when she got angry. Bane killed his father. Both of those before any formal training or even knowledge of their force sensitivity. Luke, Malgus and Anakin both gained increased strength from their rage. Its not something they consciously control. He wouldn't need to already be able to use force-enhanced strength in order to do this.
Only because Luke actually finished his opponent off.
No shit. But this was obviously something different, as shown by his Force Choking Ventress and Dooku, something he wouldn't be able to do without Force Rage.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Don't be purposefully blind Neph. I've already pointed out to you that Saber lock brought her to her knees. Why are you ignoring that? You claimed before you don't ignore evidences that might hurt your argument.
I've addressed it. As I did before you posted this.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Then why does he overpower and disarm them both in approx 15 seconds? I doubt it's superior technique. It's obviously down to strength.And I never claimed he can defeat/disarm anyone/everyone in one strike! Lol.
Simple. He doesn't.
Then why are you arguing he'll defeat Marek? A man whose faster, just as strong and much more skilled than he is?
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No he can't have been taken by surprise by his strength simply because he trained him.It's more likely Dooku was tiring from dodging both of them.
I never claimed Savage would take Dooku in Sabers in a one on one.
What I claimed is, that he's so strong that he's capable of Flooring Dooku and would pose a serious threat to him in close combat simply due to his tremendous strength.
Funny, I didn't see Dooku try to block him in that training session I posted.
Considering that Dooku then gets up after being smacked into a bulkhead and continue to dodge both of them, I doubt it.
If you don't think he can take Dooku then why are you arguing that he can take Marek?
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I can see how you made the effort to cleverly come to that conclusion, but I'm afraid your wrong Neph.Dave Filoni in that same interview stated the 4th season of CW is into the latter half of the clone wars. He called the half way point around the time the Jedi switched costumes.
He's says you can tell it's getting closer to ROTS by the costumes and the way the clone troopers look.
So I'm afraid this Obi-Wan who got comfortably Overpowered by Savage is closer to ROTS Kenobi than you'd like to think.
I doubt it. If that were true you would have posted the quote instead of just mentioning it, like you did before.
If you have proof...
Then post it!
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Just found a couple of videos I want to add:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGpmRhS49sM
0:40 onwards shows Opress's combat skills even before training from Count Dooku.
Notice also how he seems to be able to match Ventress in strength, speed and agility. (What's not shown in this video is his punches were powerful enough to make dents in that stone cube/pillar).
You mean where Ventress kicked the shit out of him? Yes, very impressive.
No, I didn't notice that.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And that was before he gets his 10 times Amp in strength from the Nightsister magic.Once he gets his Amp we can see at 1:05 that Ventress clearly can not handle Opress's strength. He's strangling her with one hand, and she can't stop him with both her hands.
Zam already dealt with this. Good job Zam.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Then there's this:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7nyUkxDABE
At 0:18- 0:25 after both Anakin and Obi-Wan have jumped him, it's made clear even combined they're no match for his strength.
But they brought him to his knees. 🙂
I rest my case.
Originally posted by Nephthys
If it takes that long to overpower them does he really have such an advantage in strength?
So long? What 10-20 seconds is that long?
It's obviously the Strength advantage that's he's using to overpower them. Since we all agree he's not more skilled.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Or, better question, will it even be a factor in his duel with Marek? If it takes that long, do you think Mareks just gonna let him?
Well it's been the decisive factor for his duels with Obi-Wan and Ventress. And it was clearly A factor in his duel against Count Dooku.
So I don't see why it won't be a factor against Galen.
Originally posted by NephthysJust how I told you. He shoved her in the head from behind. Have you ever been soved from behind? Its not something you can really resist. As I said, he didn't overpower her. There was no power from her for him to overwhelm. Its like saying that Maul overpowered Qui-Gon by smacking him with his hilt, or because Obi-Wan kicked Anakin over that he 'overpowered' him. It just doesn't work that way.
LOL So Maul never overpowered Qui-Gon either now?!
Can you not see how ridiculous this argument of yours is getting?!
He shoved her mid-saber fight.
If it wasn't superior strength like you claim, then I guess it was superior speed, moving behind her mid-Saber fight!
Thanks for proving he's both Stronger and Faster than Ventress Neph 😉
Originally posted by Nephthys
I watch plenty close. Maybe you should take your own advice. Savage used a leaping strike, which would have increased the momentum and force of his saber, in the initial strike, which drove her to her knees. However, afterwards, when it was just his strength against hers, he was unable to overwhelm her. You can't get past that, thats ironclad proof, right there on the screen.
So why did she run away Neph if he couldn't overpower her! Are you saying he's more skilled as well now Neph? You can't have it both ways.
Fact is her first fight with her he disarmed her in like 13 seconds.
Then she got a second chance thanks to Kenobi and still agreed she was outmatched and ran away.
Now tell me Neph where was Savage disarmed? Where was Savage agreeing he was outmatched. At what point was Savage on his knees or being smacked around?
She was outmatched and you know it.
Oh but of course she got into ONE Saber lock with him, which is your whole argument. Because now One Saber lock = Equal strength, even if she goes on to get battered and run away?! (Which you yourself admit can't be due to superior skill)
WTF Neph! She was probably just drawing heavily on her Force reserves to survive that one Lock. IT PROVES NOTHING!
FYI he was using his Double bladed weapon which make it more difficult to put full leverage on one side.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I hope you can see the hypocrisy here. Vader failing of overpower Obi-Wan proves that he isn't as strong as Opress, but Opress failing t ooverpower Ventress doesn't mean diddly squat? I'm sorry, but I call bullshit. Bullshit has been called.
Urm Opress disarmed Ventress in 13 seconds. Vader fought Kenobi for a couple of minutes without either seeming superior.
Ventress was getting smacked around. Obi-Wan wasn't. Ventress admitted to being outmatched (despite how arrogant she is), Obi-Wan didn't.
So call your own bullshit. Because the comparison your making is total bull.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Except Mauls back was nowhere near Opress. Ventress had to block and engage Savage or he would have been able to hit Obi-Wan. If she played keep away like Dooku did, he would have hit her partner, or just go after him flat-out. If she fought him properly, I doubt the fight would have been the same. It's only logical, Dooku wasn't dodging her strikes with ease, she clearly has the edge in skill over Opress and he hasn't recieved any training since he turned on her, so he couldn't have caught up either.
I can see your attempting very hard to prove as many disadvantages the Kenobi/Ventress duo had as you can.
You obviously were not a fan of the end result of that fight.
Ventress did NOT HAVE TO block and engage Savage in fear of him striking Obi-Wan. Simply because Savage was aiming for Ventress and would not be stretching his attacks far enough to hit the opponent behind Ventress.
There's just no reason to believe she can take Opress Neph. She never once was in a position of advantage over him the whole fight. And the second time they fought Kenobi was not behind her! He was on the floor above and yet when he came back she agreed with him that they were outmatched.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Maul was trained to use a single saber just as much as a saberstaff. Remember that he defeated Obi-Wan the first time with a single.
Point being any Jedi/Dark Jedi worth their salt should be able to fight well enough with a Single Saber. According to TFUII fighting with 2 Sabers has just as many disadvantages as it does advantages. And her chosen form is Makashi which is designed for pure fencing anyway.
But I admit since it's the way of fighting she prefers that she would probably fight better with both of them. But there's still nothing to believe she's a match for him Neph.
He's put Count frigging Dooku on the floor once. She never has. (Despite you cliaming she's as strong as Opress due to One Saber lock LOL)
Count Dooku is worried about Savage. He couldn't care less about Ventress.
Savage has proved he's significantly more powerful than Kenobi. She hasn't (even with both her Sabers)
Originally posted by Nephthys
Maul's been moving around with mechanical legs for all of those 10 years and he was shown to adjust to them rapidly on-screen.
They were spider legs. Do you have any idea how important foot work is to fighting, especially sword fighting? And he was in psychotic state all that time.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Also, who cares? We're arguing Opress, not Maul here.
I was just about to point this out.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Again, he was beaten unconscious twice. You don't recover from that quickly. [B]
And what you adjust to newly built cybernetic legs quickly? And it won't make a difference that he's not been able to keep up with his Saber dueling for over 10 years?!
Neither was in tip top shape. Let's just leave it at that for now. Because it's not like we can quantify who was in worse shape (for combat purposes).
Originally posted by Nephthys
[B]
If you don't think he can take Dooku then why are you arguing that he can take Marek? [B]
We're talking about a Saber fight right? Dooku would beat Marek.
And even Dooku with all his fencing skill and tremendous strength in the force got knocked on the floor by Savage's strength. So I don't see it being a non-issue against Marek. It will be an issue. And may win him the Saber fight.
Originally posted by Nephthys
[B] I doubt it. If that were true you would have posted the quote instead of just mentioning it, like you did before.If you have proof... [B]
No problem Neph.
The interview with Filoni starts after 40 mins.
Originally posted by MewlingQuim
[B]Interesting post.For what it's worth, according to Dave Filoni, Sidious is not pulling his punches with Anakin this early on in The Clone Wars. "If Dooku killed Anakin there, it just meant Anakin wouldn't be the next Sith apprentice. He's not pulling him out of battles to protect him. If he can't survive this war, he won't be a Sith Lord."
http://forcecast.net/story/topstory/Weekly_ForceCast_May_4_2012_145329.asp
[B]
I know that hurts you. Which is why you accused me of making it up, instead of just asking if I have a link.
But the fact is the Kenobi who got comfortably overpowered by Savage Opress is closer to ROTS Kenobi than he is to AOTC Kenobi.
Originally posted by Nephthys
[B] You mean where Ventress kicked the shit out of him? Yes, very impressive. [B]
So your just ignoring the whole point of that post. Great.
I think your starting to realize Opress is much stronger than Ventress, at least just as fast and agile, and probably has combat skills on par with her as well.
Her only advantage is much better skill at using the force powers she has, but that's not enough for her to have a shot at defeating Savage.
Originally posted by Nephthys
[B]Zam already dealt with this. Good job Zam. [B]
And I immediately pointed out he was wrong. I can easily stop someone choking me with one hand of theirs, if I'm using both my hands! I can easily grab their hand from their wrist, and pull it off using both my hands. Unless they are much stronger than me.
Savage is much much stronger than Ventress. And that, on top of his other skills, will give him the victory over her every time.
She, with both her hands, had no power to stop his one hand choking her. And it was proven she can't even hurt him without a weapon.
The guy's a beast. Physical and with Force TK. So there's no shame for Ventress in being "outmatched" by him.
Originally posted by Nephthys
[B]But they brought him to his knees. 🙂
From behind, while his concentration was on the King. Then he overpowered them BOTH physically, including Anakin with his cyborg arm.
He's much much stronger than Anakin, Obi-Wan and Ventress. The evidence is all there Neph. Your obviously not a fan of Opress which is why your ignoring it and trying to desperately prove he doesn't have any advantage over them at all.
And yet he still manages to either drive them back/physically overpower them, or just outright disarm them every time they fight him.
On the other hand neither of these 3 has ever gained a postion of advantage over Savage in a fight.
So your whole argument trying to lowball his Victories and feats is baseless.
Just out of curiosity Neph, is there any feat/victory of Savage's that you accept without making an excuse for it??
Originally posted by Nephthys
Maybe because unlike them, Galen can toss TIE fighters around with his bare hands?
You've yet to prove this.
And you can't just go by feats, whilst ignoring how they compare in actual duels with other characters.
Originally posted by NephthysJust how I told you. He shoved her in the head from behind. Have you ever been soved from behind? Its not something you can really resist. As I said, he didn't overpower her. There was no power from her for him to overwhelm. Its like saying that Maul overpowered Qui-Gon by smacking him with his hilt, or because Obi-Wan kicked Anakin over that he 'overpowered' him. It just doesn't work that way.
And back to this point (I can't edit now), kicks and punches always play a big part in these fights.
Mace vs Sidious, Dooku vs Ventress, Maul vs Obi-Wan/Qui-Gon.
Look how Anakin defeated Dooku!
There's just so many examples.
So you can't just ignore that and say it doesn't count. Physical attacks are just too big a factor in Saber dueling.
And in this particular aspect of Saber fighting, not only is Savage's strength such a huge advantage. But his durability as well. A kick from Ventress simply won't do anything to him.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You've yet to prove this.
Excuse me? Have you even been reading my responses?
3.15. Next time actually click the links I provide for you. It'll save you some embarrasment.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And you can't just go by feats, whilst ignoring how they compare in actual duels with other characters.
Why not? You are.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And back to this point (I can't edit now), kicks and punches always play a big part in these fights.Mace vs Sidious, Dooku vs Ventress, Maul vs Obi-Wan/Qui-Gon.
Look how Anakin defeated Dooku!
There's just so many examples.
So you can't just ignore that and say it doesn't count. Physical attacks are just too big a factor in Saber dueling.
And in this particular aspect of Saber fighting, not only is Savage's strength such a huge advantage. But his durability as well. A kcik from Ventress simply won't do anything to him.
How is this relevent? I've never said that physical attacks aren't useful, I merely pointed out that punching someone does not constitute overpowering them.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
LOL So Maul never overpowered Qui-Gon either now?!
Nope. He briefly stunned him by whacking him in the face and ran his through before he would recover. What aspect of that would you call 'overpowering'?
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Can you not see how ridiculous this argument of yours is getting?!
That you regard facts and logic as ridiculous is quite telling. Why do you hate the truth POWER? Why do you hate America?
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He shoved her mid-saber fight.If it wasn't superior strength like you claim, then I guess it was superior speed, moving behind her mid-Saber fight!
Thanks for proving he's both Stronger and Faster than Ventress Neph 😉
Of course it had to be that he's faster. Theres absolutely no other explanation. It couldn't possibly be that he was just in a superior position at the time as a result of her missed swing and took advantage of it. Nope, has to be speed. This is completely apparant on the screen, I can't believe I didn't see it before.
You're must be desperate.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So why did she run away Neph if he couldn't overpower her! Are you saying he's more skilled as well now Neph? You can't have it both ways.
Don't put words in my mouth. They were outmatched, as Kenobi said. I've explained to you why this is and it has nothing to do with him being more skilled than her. Because he isn't.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Fact is her first fight with her he disarmed her in like 13 seconds.
Then she got a second chance thanks to Kenobi and still agreed she was outmatched and ran away.Now tell me Neph where was Savage disarmed? Where was Savage agreeing he was outmatched. At what point was Savage on his knees or being smacked around?
That is a fact. How is it relevent to this thread though?
Do you mean in the Ventress fight or when Dooku was doing everything you just mentioned to him? Or when he ran away from Anakin and Obi-Wan?
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
She was outmatched and you know it.
Its too bad this is Galen Marek vs Opress, not Ventress then, isn't it? Or your arguments might have merit. The only aspect of that fight thats relevent to this thread is how it displays his strength.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Oh but of course she got into ONE Saber lock with him, which is your whole argument. Because now One Saber lock = Equal strength, even if she goes on to get battered and run away?! (Which you yourself admit can't be due to superior skill)
How does it not prove that? A saberlock is a direct competition of strength. It should be the purest means to determine strength. So how can you feel comfortable in simply ignoring it?
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
WTF Neph! She was probably just drawing heavily on her Force reserves to survive that one Lock. IT PROVES NOTHING!
If thats true then why can't Marek do that with his mindblowingly massive reserves? While using his superior skill, agility and speed to take him down? You think an edge in strength, which as I've proven, if it does exist, is slight, will make up for all those factors when Marek can just draw on his heavy reserves to make up for that small, debatable deficiency? Face it, like Opress' brother, your argument has no legs to stand on.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
FYI he was using his Double bladed weapon which make it more difficult to put full leverage on one side.
Actually it would make it easier imo. Longer handle.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Urm Opress disarmed Ventress in 13 seconds. Vader fought Kenobi for a couple of minutes without either seeming superior.Ventress was getting smacked around. Obi-Wan wasn't. Ventress admitted to being outmatched (despite how arrogant she is), Obi-Wan didn't.
So call your own bullshit. Because the comparison your making is total bull.
Opress got lucky and he didn't overpower her. We can see this in the saberlock, which you are yet again ignoring. Opress failed to overpower her, just like according to you Vader failed to overpower Kenobi.
My point stands.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I can see your attempting very hard to prove as many disadvantages the Kenobi/Ventress duo had as you can.You obviously were not a fan of the end result of that fight.
I think its a reasonable outcome considering their situation. Though I do think that Ventress should have had a much easier time with Opress than she did. The entire fight reeked of PIS. None of the characters were fighting at their peak except Opress, which you apparantly take to mean that he's superior to all the others there.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Ventress did NOT HAVE TO block and engage Savage in fear of him striking Obi-Wan. Simply because Savage was aiming for Ventress and would not be stretching his attacks far enough to hit the opponent behind Ventress.
If she had dodged out of the way he would have had a clear shot at Kenobi, which she wouldn't be able to block.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
There's just no reason to believe she can take Opress Neph. She never once was in a position of advantage over him the whole fight. And the second time they fought Kenobi was not behind her! He was on the floor above and yet when he came back she agreed with him that they were outmatched.
🙂
And notice that it's 'they were outmatched'. Not her. Kenobi was obviously losing and in no condition to keep fighting. That doesn't mean that she couldn't defeat Opress on her own. As a team they were losing, not her individually.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Point being any Jedi/Dark Jedi worth their salt should be able to fight well enough with a Single Saber. According to TFUII fighting with 2 Sabers has just as many disadvantages as it does advantages. And her chosen form is Makashi which is designed for pure fencing anyway.
Ventress had limited training due to her master dying, remember? She wasn't obsessively taught all aspects of combat like Maul was.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But I admit since it's the way of fighting she prefers that she would probably fight better with both of them. But there's still nothing to believe she's a match for him Neph.He's put Count frigging Dooku on the floor once. She never has. (Despite you cliaming she's as strong as Opress due to One Saber lock LOL)
Count Dooku is worried about Savage. He couldn't care less about Ventress.
It's good that you admit that.
Explained already.
Who cares what Count Dooku thinks? Is opinion evidence now?
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Savage has proved he's significantly more powerful than Kenobi. She hasn't (even with both her Sabers)
Haha, ok. 🙄
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
They were spider legs. Do you have any idea how important foot work is to fighting, especially sword fighting? And he was in psychotic state all that time.
Oh, so they were more complicated and harder to use than regular legs? Gotcha.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And what you adjust to newly built cybernetic legs quickly? And it won't make a difference that he's not been able to keep up with his Saber dueling for over 10 years?!
I guess, since thats what we see happen. And neither did Sidious, yet he could still take on Mace Windu in a duel.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Neither was in tip top shape. Let's just leave it at that for now. Because it's not like we can quantify who was in worse shape (for combat purposes).
I'm fine with just ignoring the whole duel except the saberlock. Really its the only concrete piece of evidence there.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
We're talking about a Saber fight right? Dooku would beat Marek.
In your opinion. I'm sure I could argue otherwise.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And even Dooku with all his fencing skill and tremendous strength in the force got knocked on the floor by Savage's strength. So I don't see it being a non-issue against Marek. It will be an issue. And may win him the Saber fight.
I'll continue to consider it a non-issue since Marek also has tremendous strength and has fought and defeated tremendously powerful opponents. And please, could you wank that feat off any more? Quit acting like Opress beat Dooku. He put him on the floor once and then Dooku got up and humiliated both him and Ventress without his lightsaber.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No problem Neph.
The interview with Filoni starts after 40 mins.I know that hurts you. Which is why you accused me of making it up, instead of just asking if I have a link.
1: I did ask for a link and 2. specify a time. I'm not listening to an interview just to find evidence for your argument.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So your just ignoring the whole point of that post. Great.
I learnt from the best.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I think your starting to realize Opress is much stronger than Ventress, at least just as fast and agile, and probably has combat skills on par with her as well.Her only advantage is much better skill at using the force powers she has, but that's not enough for her to have a shot at defeating Savage.
She was testing him. She obviously wasn't going all-out. The idea that a untrained force sensitive could stand up to a dark jedi in hand-2-hand combat without them holding back is retarded. They literally just cannot match their strength, speed and reflexes. It is physically impossible.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And I immediately pointed out he was wrong. I can easily stop someone choking me with one hand of theirs, if I'm using both my hands! I can easily grab their hand from their wrist, and pull it off using both my hands. Unless they are much stronger than me.
I'm guessing you're speaking from experience and not from your ass, right?
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Savage is much much stronger than Ventress. And that, on top of his other skills, will give him the victory over her every time.
Bull. Shit.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
From behind, while his concentration was on the King. Then he overpowered them BOTH physically, including Anakin with his cyborg arm.He's much much stronger than Anakin, Obi-Wan and Ventress. The evidence is all there Neph. Your obviously not a fan of Opress which is why your ignoring it and trying to desperately prove he doesn't have any advantage over them at all.
And yet he still manages to either drive them back/physically overpower them, or just outright disarm them every time they fight him.
On the other hand neither of these 3 has ever gained a postion of advantage over Savage in a fight.
So your whole argument trying to lowball his Victories and feats is baseless.
I was being glib and throwing your own argument back in your face.
If any of that were true, then why did he run away from Anakin and Obi-Wan? They looked fine with blocking his attacks both times he fought them. He didn't overpower them or anything, just like he didn't any other time. Sorry, but you've lost thsi one.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Just out of curiosity Neph, is there any feat/victory of Savage's that you accept without making an excuse for it??
Yes, when he killed that nameless Jedi and his child padawan.
I was very impressed.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Oh, so they were more complicated and harder to use than regular legs? Gotcha.I guess, since thats what we see happen. And neither did Sidious, yet he could still take on Mace Windu in a duel.
Whatever dude. I'm not arguing how a Maul with Spider legs and in a psychotic state is not in tip-top Jedi fighting shape, because frankly the argument is too retarded to discuss.
And for the record the lack of keeping in touch with his Saber abilities is probably a large part of why Mace can defeat a Sith Lord whose actually more powerful than him.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm fine with just ignoring the whole duel except the saberlock. Really its the only concrete piece of evidence there.
Your right. So I guess since AOTC Obi-Wan got into a Saber lock with Count Dooku, it shows he was just as strong as Count Dooku at that point.
And I guess since TPM Obi-Wan got into a Saber lock with Maul that he was as strong as him too.
Maybe you should look at the whole fight, and the result of the fight, instead of just clinging to one scene that you liked.
I never once stated no one is capable of getting into a Saber lock with Savage. Although again in the case of Ventress or Obi-Wan they most likely had to draw heavily on their force reserves to do so. Which is why ultimately they were outmatched.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I'll continue to consider it a non-issue since Marek also has tremendous strength and has fought and defeated tremendously powerful opponents. And please, could you wank that feat off any more? Quit acting like Opress beat Dooku. He put him on the floor once and then Dooku got up and humiliated both him and Ventress [b]without his lightsaber. [/B]
Lol I never said he defeated Dooku. Point is in close combat he is a threat to him due to just how great his strength is. And point is you'll never catch Ventress or Obi-Wan putting Count Dooku on the floor. Period.
And yes your right Dooku needed to use his Force Lightning to embarrass Savage. I've already admitted countless times Savage lacks skill in the Force. And Dave Filoni confirms that as well.
Originally posted by Nephthys
1: I did ask for a link and 2. specify a time. I'm not listening to an interview just to find evidence for [b]your argument. [/B]
It starts sometime after 40 mins. The part in question(about the timeline) is right at the beginning of the interview. And you probably should listen to the whole interview, you might learn something about Opress and Maul.
Since you probably won't I'll be kind enough to inform you:
Savage is poorly skilled in the Force. But He's all Rage and Power. Sort of Like the Hulk.
Whilst Maul is an extremely dangerous threat because he's been trained by Sidious in ALL the ways of the Sith.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I learnt from the best.
Who me?? Nah!
Originally posted by Nephthys
She was testing him. She obviously wasn't going all-out. The idea that a untrained force sensitive could stand up to a dark jedi in hand-2-hand combat without them holding back is retarded. They literally just cannot match their strength, speed and reflexes. It is physically impossible.
Is it really that unbelievable?? Because Jango Fett, Cad Bane and General Grievous don't even have the Force and yet they've all gone toe to toe with Jedi. Even won sometimes!
And may I remind you she didn't hesitate to kill others in that contest. If they couldn't survive then they were not worthy.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm guessing you're speaking from experience and not from your ass, right?
Yes I grapple. A choke's not impossible to break. Especially not a One Handed choke. LOL!
Originally posted by Nephthys
Bull. Shit.
When we see Ventress or Obi-Wan beat Savage in a fight, or even ever gain a position of advantage over him in a fight, then we can talk. In the mean time your argument is quite baseless Neph.
Originally posted by Nephthys
If any of that were true, then why did he run away from Anakin and Obi-Wan? They looked fine with blocking his attacks both times he fought them. He didn't overpower them or anything, just like he didn't any other time. Sorry, but you've lost thsi one.
When exactly did he run from Anakin and Obi-Wan? On Toydaria? You mean when he had them both buried and could have just killed them?
Or are you talking about on Dooku's ship when he had Dooku's entire droid army out to kill him, and ran just after flattening both Anakin and Obi-Wan with the Force??
And what's your point about the fight. That he didn't overpower them both together? Well he did physically on Toydaria. And he was overpowering them with the Force on Dooku's ship. He smacked them both on the floor twice!
So bearing in mind that the 2 of them together could not seem to overpower him, I don't know where your getting that he doesn't outclass just Obi-Wan.
And I really don't see what part of this argument I've lost.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes, when he killed that nameless Jedi and his child padawan.
I would say for a guy whose received zero force training to tool a Jedi Knight in close combat (without even being equipped with a Lightsaber mind you) is pretty Uber. No matter how nameless he is. Or does being a Jedi Knight not mean anything anymore??
But of course nothing he does could ever impress you. Because even when he clearly Overpowers Noteworthy individuals you don't accept it. Even when he Floors a Sith Lord, you make excuses for it.
Anyway Neph to sum up:
1) I'm glad you've made the posts shorter because I'd rather address the few main points than go off on a rant over a 10- 20 minor points.
2) I don't see the point in discussing Savage vs Marek, while you won't even agree Savage is Much Stronger than both Obi-Wan and Ventress (And clearly a more formidable opponent than either one).
Because while we heavily disagree on that point, this Marek vs Savage really can't get anywhere.
Although in an all out I've already agreed Marek would stomp Savage with his Force Lightning. This is one of the instances where Savage's lack of skill and know-how is heavily exploitable.
Edit- Oh crap just noticed you haven't shortened it, you've made a whole other post on top of the one I've quoted!!