Satele and Marek vs The Sith Emperor

Not interested. But, for future use, I'll explain to you why the passage is from Marek's perspective:

The Force Unleashed
Juno, he thought. At last, everything is going to be all right.

"You fool!" snarled the Emperor, sending another wave of Sith lightning into Kota's back. "He will never be yours."

Kota fell with his arms upraised, and the apprentice knew that it wasn't over yet. The moment of truth had arrived.

Without hesitation, he stepped between Kota and the Emperor, taking the full brunt of the Sith lightning into his own body.

The pain was incredible, searing every nerve back to its individual cells, skewering each of them on white-hot needles. He had never before felt anything like this. He wanted to recoil from the source, to curl into a ball and let unconsciousness take the pain away, but somehow he stayed standing, seeing the world through a crackling blue light, and even took a step toward the Emperor.

"Go!" he hissed at Kota. "Hurry!"

The general hesitated only for a moment. He, too, had seen a glimpse of the future, the apprentice remembered. He knew that it came down to a simple choice: him and the Rebels or the apprentice and darkness forever. Gathering up the Rebels, Kola ushered them toward the descending ship.

Another staggering, painful step and the Emperor was within the apprentice's reach. With shaking fingers, he took the old man's bony shoulders in his hands and gripped them tight. The Sith lightning spread to engulf the two of them, fueled by both their desperations. The Emperor tipped back his head and howled in lascivious pain. Darkness threatened to envelop the apprentice's mind, but he clutched to consciousness with feverish will. He had to see this through. He had to.

A squadron of stormtroopers ran into the room, led by a limping Darth Vader. They raised their blasters to gun down the Rebels as they fled up the Rogue Shadow's ramp.

"No!" the apprentice cried, dropping his defenses to strike one last time at the Imperials. Energy surged through him. He felt as though a star had blazed to life in his chest. Driven by concern for his friends rather than himself, he embraced the Force completely, utterly, and was rewarded with strength that made his efforts with the dark side look like those of a child. His nerves were on fire. Streamers of light radiated from his skin. His bones glowed like radiant lava.

He saw rather than felt the massive shock wave that consumed a large portion of what remained of the observation dome. A glowing bubble of fire tore the stormtroopers to shreds and engulfed Vader and the Emperor. Shrapnel filled the air like dust caught in the beam of the Death Star's powerful laser.

Tossed like a leaf, the Rogue Shadow fled in haste, ramp snapping shut on its precious cargo.

The apprentice felt himself leaving his body again. Or was his body leaving him this time? He felt ripped apart by the energy that had flowed through him. Every cell was in shock; every fiber shook. The fire on his face possessed no heat at all. His limbs felt as distant as the farthest arms of the galaxy. He was amazed there was enough left of him to think at all.

Weakened by the blast, the dome's supports gave way. It collapsed into the superlaser dish, triggering a series of conventional explosions. Stormtroopers converged on the site. Through the dense smoke, two figures were visible from the apprentice's rarefied perspective.

Darth Vader struggled to his feet from the rubble, even more damaged than before. He reached out for support and found only his Master, scowling.

Together, unspeaking, they searched the rubble.

When they found what they were looking for, neither of them looked any happier for it.

"He is dead," the Dark Lord intoned, gazing dispassionately at the body at their feet.

This moment, the apprentice thought. I saw this!

"Then he is now more powerful than ever." The Emperor glanced up, watching sourly as the Rogue Shadow sped away into the busy sky. "He was meant to root out the Rebels, not give them hope. His sacrifice will only inspire them."

"But now we know who they are, my Master. I will hunt them down and destroy them, as you always intended-starting with the traitor Bail Organa."

The Emperor waved him silent and turned to walk away. "Patience, Lord Vader. Far better to destroy a man's hope first. Or that of someone close to him ..."

Hope will never he destroyed, the apprentice thought. Not now. It'll survive anything else you can throw at them . . .

Darkness pressed in. He didn't fight it. Juno was safe. That was all he cared about now. He didn't need to be there to see what happened next. He could imagine well enough.

With his last thought, he whispered his own name.

The colored segments indicate vivid descriptions, all of which come from the apprentice. Other characters feature and Marek makes observations of their actions, words, and interprets what they may be thinking, but all of that is filtered from his perspective. The nature of the Emperor's pain, for example, is not explored whereas Marek's is. The extent of Kota's musings are not given, whereas Marek's is. When Vader and the Emperor find Marek's body, the text says that neither of them looked happier for it-- exactly what they're feeling isn't told to us because Marek can only observe what appears to be the case, not what actually is. The narrator is telling the story through Marek, the viewpoint character, and does not explore the other characters with equal depth and knowledge.

This is the nature of third person subjective/limited viewpoint. I can't make it any clearer than that, other than to tell you that this is the perspective in which all Star Wars books (with few exceptions) are written.

Fine. You convinced me that it is from view point of Marek but it doesn't prove that his point of view was necessarily wrong.
It is still not a fact that he would have used any other method to handle Marek, if he decided to kill him.
In darkside ending he unleashed Force lightning as well to overpower Marek.
He did that with Yoda as well, where he definitely didn't hold back. These two struggles are mirrored almost precisely.
In all three cases he used lightning as final solution to handle his opponent.
Indeed he didn't want to kill Marek. But I don't see any reason why he wouldn't unleash full power of his lightning, he can always stop electrocuting, when he sees that opponent is defeated like in darkside ending.

Originally posted by Arhael
The book, indeed lacks fight with Sidious, yet, from what I see between their struggle, Marek showed himself equal.

He did not show himself equal to Sidious.

Originally posted by Arhael

"staggering, painful step and the Emperor was within the apprentice's reach. With shaking fingers, he took the old man's bony shoulders in his hands and gripped them tight. The Sith lightning spread to engulf the two of them, fueled by both their desperations. The Emperor tipped back his head and howled in lascivious pain. Darkness threatened to envelop the apprentice's mind, but he clutched to consciousness with feverish will. He had to see this through. He had to."

If he did not decide to sacrifice himself, there is a chance that he would have won.

A very small chance, if any. Read the bolded part. Do you honestly think Marek could have kept that up much longer? Seems pretty clear to me that Marek was going to die whether he sacrificed himself or not.

Originally posted by Arhael
As attempted to shorten lengthy and useless argument I will stop discussing irrelevant stuff and go back.

Originally posted by Arhael
As long as you give at least some chance to either of them, I am fine with it. Our opinions do not need to be the same.

Originally posted by Arhael
Our lengthy argument started on first place because you didn't give them any chance at all:

Vitiate:
As for intelligence, yes, Vitiate is brilliant tactician, great planner and one of the most intelligent person in mythos. However, that's not what we weighting in a Versus Thread. Here we assume that two characters will be put into one place and start fight with each other without any preparations. Therefore, when we evaluate characters, we focus on what he can do during combat and only.

From all known feats of Vitiate we know that his combat went as far as overpower opponents with mind domination, TK and Force lightning. All his powers are aimed at his enemy, he never threw a brick at his opponent. He never displayed any ability to outwit or outskill his opponent because he was more powerful, than all his adversaries. Which makes it clear, that if his opponent can resist his powers like JK, he has no other options left to defeat his opponent.

Vitiate analyses the strengths and weaknesses of his opponent and then decides his course of action. He never attempts to engage a character at his/her strong point.

As an analogy: Raynar Thul engaged Luke at his strong points and lost. This was explicitly hinted upon in the novel.

In contrast to the analogy, Vitiate is much more calculative. Yes, he has a arsenal of powers to use in combat and they are not limited to the applications that you mentioned.

During second encounter against Hero of Tython, Vitiate kept his opponent busy with illusions for a while. Later on, when the Voice was struck down, Vitiate collapsed the entire building in an attempt to trap and kill his opponent. Remember that Vitiate was not in good form during this encounter.

Therefore, Vitiate is not so limited in his decision-making as you are trying to propose. He can use the surroundings against his opponents, if he feels necessary to do so.

Originally posted by Arhael
Satele
As I pointed out before there is no prove that she can be mind dominated, I am, yet, to see Vitiate mind dominate someone during combat as powerful as Satele.
Jedi Strike team example doesn't help as he is seeing to use FLS from beginning to the end. And we know that FLS is the ability that requires full concentration and gathering power. We also know that FLS against strike team looks more powerful, than FS against JK, so we can't assume him crushing their will simultaneously. Also, we see how Tol Braga as experienced Jedi is able to block that FLS for a while but fails, which shows how potent that lightning was.

As for Satele's absorb levels. She is shown absorbing lightsaber, which is the deadliest power known, lightning never incinerated someone as fast. Yet, we can't safely assume that she will be able to absorb his lightning. Because we have Corran Horn who fully inherited absorbing talent from his descendant Keiran Halkion (another character that showed lightsaber absorbing). He was unable to fully absorbing Abeloth's lightning, although, her lightning is likely above any of Sith known.

Overall, she has chance of resisting Vitiate's powers and striking him down but the odds are obviously on his side.

Otherwise, nicely reasoned. However, it is unclear as of now that who is stronger from the two; Satele or Hero of Tython. Scourge believes that Hero of Tython is strongest.

-------------

This duel can end at mental domination level. If this is prevented then this duel can also end at FLS level.

Vitiate is incredibly powerful and dangerous. He have handled multiple powerful individuals simultaneously. He has good chance in this fight as well.

Originally posted by heitoi_which
I gave you victory on the previous page. Merry Christmas. Marek stomps Vitiate.

This is once again short-sighted assessment.
In contrast to the analogy, Vitiate is much more calculative. Yes, he has a arsenal of powers to use in combat and they are not limited to the applications that you mentioned.

During second encounter against Hero of Tython, Vitiate kept his opponent busy with illusions for a while. Later on, when the Voice was struck down, Vitiate collapsed the entire building in an attempt to trap and kill his opponent.

Therefore, Vitiate is not so limited in his decision-making as you are trying to propose. He can use the surroundings against his opponents, if he feels necessary to do so.

Remember that Vitiate was not in good form during this encounter.

Once again! Satele's reluctance was not misplaced. Please keep in mind that she is not an individual who would shy away from a challenge without strong basis.

Otherwise, nicely reasoned. However, it is unclear as of now that who is stronger from the two; Satele or Hero of Tython. Scourge believes that Hero of Tython is strongest.

-------------

This duel can end at mental domination level. If this is prevented then this duel can also end at FLS level.

Vitiate is incredibly powerful and dangerous. He have handled multiple powerful individuals simultaneously. He has good chance in this fight as well.

A very small chance, if any. Read the bolded part. Do you honestly think Marek could have kept that up much longer? Seems pretty clear to me that Marek was going to die whether he sacrificed himself or not.

Yes, we have darkside ending, where Marek gets easily overwhelmed by the same lightning but at the same time on the lightside we see him dodging one fork, blocking another and then overwhelming Palpatine with Force blasts and it is another possible outcome of the fight, which was canon, until overwritten by the book.

Originally posted by Arhael
Indeed, there was small chance to win. But now I gonna point out another fact.
This is not necessary fair power contest. I gonna bring up several comparisons.
Jaina in first fight with Jacen was empowered by Luke. Therefore, I can assume that she was stronger, than Jacen at that point. However, after she cut his arm, he electrocuted her and she was no longer able to fight as result. Much later in FotJ she, also, got electrocuted by random Sith and, if not Ben, she wasn't gonna get freed herself any time soon.
Even Luke who tanked Abeloth's lightning. In FotJ Vortex book he was "riding a fork of lightning", until Ben disturbed the current freeing Luke.
Anakin in first fight with Dooku fared better against him than Obi-Wan in duel, yet, lightning utterly punked him.
In their second fight in CW Anakin casually dismissed magnaguard's strike like it was a bag bite, Dooku was unable to stop him with all his refined TK skills, got overpowered in lightsaber combat and ended up being choked. Yet, when he employed lightning, Anakin got knocked backwards and it took him some time to recover before continuing chasing him. Can we conclude that Anakin is "no match" to Dooku's power because he failed against lightning like Marek? No.
All available evidence points out that, even the most powerful characters, if get caught by lightning of less powerful characters, they end up losing. Exception to that were only Yoda and Revan because of their ability to absorb.
Unlike them Marek didn't have the ability to absorb, it seems that the book states it clearly. Yet, he still was able to resist Palpatine's lightning much better, than more powerful Anakin - much weaker Dooku's lightning.
Moreover, when Palpatine started electrocuting Marek, it didn't cost him anything, while Marek was heavily suffering and getting weaker from that. This fact makes this power contest very unfair and heavily favors Palpatine. Yet, Marek still managed to overcome that and even made Palpatine suffer as well. In my opinion such demonstration shows him surpassing all known characters before him and clearly shows that his power rivaled Palpatine's.

Yes, we have darkside ending, where Marek gets easily overwhelmed by the same lightning but at the same time on the lightside we see him dodging one fork, blocking another and then overwhelming Palpatine with Force blasts and it is another possible outcome of the fight, which was canon, until overwritten by the book.

The dark side ending shows us that Sidious was probably a superior combatant than Marek. Sidious overwhelmed Marek with lightning in the middle of a saber lock. This basically shows that Marek is not fast enough to counter a lightning assault from Sidious in the middle of a duel. In the canon ending Sidious initial attack was aimed at Kota which gave Marek some time to muster up some kind of force defense. The novel doesn't say if Marek was using the force to absord some of the lightning but the game cutscene shows us that he was, and I see no contradiction other than that Marek was not as proficient with the force absorb technique.

You're making the claim that Marek could have overcome Sidious with very little to back it up with. Marek opened himself up to the force (which gave him the strength that "made his efforts with the dark side look like those of a child"😉 and triggered a huge explosion that destroyed the emperor's tower. And Sidious was still left standing. This, added to the canon sources that say Marek was no match for the power of Sidious, should be enough proof that Marek was not strong enough in the force to defeat Palpatine.

I re-watched game lightside scene. And down there unlike book he is shown able to absorb lightning and explosion is caused the same way as with Yoda, Palpatine did not howl and tip back his head, so in game Marek indeed was no match. However, in book and comics it is overwritten. He is not shown to have absorb ability, however, he is shown reaching Palpatine and making him suffer as well. And considering the fact that it was unfair contest (As I pointed out in previous post) and he still showed such resistance, it doesn't look like he was no match in terms of power.

I read encyclopedia, it's rather vague description and it has this:
"Bombarded by Force lightning, Starkiller did not fight back but instead unleashed all the power of the Force within him..." - that is contradiction, it is not what we have in the book as he clearly fought back and made Palpatine suffering as result. On that ground I can't take that source seriously. It suits how scene is portrayed in game but not in the book.

As for darkside ending we can't make adequate comparisons. I will point out that in book Marek got hypnotized. Following darkside path would mean that he couldn't break that influence and Palpatine had mental advantage over him. As analogy we have Palpatine toying darkside Luke but losing to lightside Luke.
Also, if you take game examples as evidence, then we have lightside Marek dodging one fork, blocking another and Force blasting Palpatine to the floor.

I agree that it wasn't likely for him to survive, if he didn't decide to sacrifice himself. But my argument is not about Marek vs Palpatine, my argument is that Marek has good chance to pawn Vitiate and I merely use Palpatine as prove.

First and foremost, where you’re getting the idea that the novel is supreme is beyond me. The game, the graphic novel, and the book are all on the same canonical tier—and the centerpiece of the entire multimedia project is the game. If one was supreme (which has not been established to be the case), it would probably be the game. In fact, given the potential contradiction between these three equals, it’s probably even smarter of us to defer to the encyclopedia rather than arbitrarily decide which source to follow and which to reject, eh? 🙄

The graphic novel sits in front of me and while Marek does reach and grasp Sidious, I see no evidence of the Emperor’s “suffering”—we don’t even see his face. Earlier, the comic depicts Marek hurling lightning at Sidious and all it does is make him laugh. {I can provide scans, if you like.} So unless you mean Sidious is suffering from chuckle-induced broken ribs, your point is about as aerodynamic as Enron’s stock.

In none of the three sources does Marek fight back against Sidious during their final clash; physically touching someone doesn’t constitute an act of violence, especially when it is Sidious’s own energies that is the source of pain for both of them. Marek isn’t even said to be consciously deflecting it back as Yoda did. The encyclopedia’s interpretation of events is contradicted by none of the relevant sources.

😐

Palpatine beat Luke on Byss because Byss is a dark side nexus and his abilities were strengthened therein whereas the Eclipse was decidedly neutral territory. Both Luke and Marek were not completely enthralled by the Emperor in either case; in the dark side ending, Marek tries to end Palpatine’s life and shows no signs of compulsion that would suggest he was somehow impaired.

It's been awhile since I read the comic but isn't Palpatine's skeleton illuminated by his own lightning. I recall seeing the bones in his arms in a panel or two.

Regardless, Palpatine > Starkiller.

Originally posted by ares834
It's been awhile since I read the comic but isn't Palpatine's skeleton illuminated by his own lightning. I recall seeing the bones in his arms in a panel or two.

Yes.

Originally posted by heitoi_which
First and foremost, where you’re getting the idea that the novel is supreme is beyond me. The game, the graphic novel, and the book are all on the same canonical tier—and the centerpiece of the entire multimedia project is the game. If one was supreme (which has not been established to be the case), it would probably be the game. In fact, given the potential contradiction between these three equals, it’s probably even smarter of us to defer to the encyclopedia rather than arbitrarily decide which source to follow and which to reject, eh? 🙄

The graphic novel sits in front of me and while Marek does reach and grasp Sidious, I see no evidence of the Emperor’s “suffering”—we don’t even see his face. Earlier, the comic depicts Marek hurling lightning at Sidious and all it does is make him laugh. {I can provide scans, if you like.} So unless you mean Sidious is suffering from chuckle-induced broken ribs, your point is about as aerodynamic as Enron’s stock.

In none of the three sources does Marek fight back against Sidious during their final clash; physically touching someone doesn’t constitute an act of violence, especially when it is Sidious’s own energies that is the source of pain for both of them. Marek isn’t even said to be consciously deflecting it back as Yoda did. The encyclopedia’s interpretation of events is contradicted by none of the relevant sources.

😐

Palpatine beat Luke on Byss because Byss is a dark side nexus and his abilities were strengthened therein whereas the Eclipse was decidedly neutral territory. Both Luke and Marek were not completely enthralled by the Emperor in either case; in the dark side ending, Marek tries to end Palpatine’s life and shows no signs of compulsion that would suggest he was somehow impaired.

Because it makes sense to compare feats of books with books as they are portrayed more realistically. And even, if we consider game on first place, it takes us back, where we started because in game we have actual fight between them which ends, when Marek pawns Sidious to the floor.

You say in non of the sources Marek fights back? What then Yoda does, when Palpatine electrocutes? Why Sidious have that "OH! SHIT!" face before explosion happens?

As for Luke's case. Darkside nexus presence is far from being the main reason he lost. And since Luke, also, utilized darkside don't see any reason why he wouldn't benifit from that as well. Luke still had mess in his head and his experience in darkside was nowhere near comparing to Palpatine.

And if we consider Marek's darkside ending, on darkside his main source of power was rage and desire for vengeance. After killing Vader he fulfilled his main goal and had no more strong emotions to draw on.
In any case canon passage is lightside, where Marek handles Palpatine in one cut scene and is able to resist lightning like Yoda in another scene. And I point out again that resisting lightning is not a fair power contest, it clearly favors Palpatine. According to Lucas Vader was 80% of Palpatine's power and got utterly handled with TK. It already clarifies that Marek is less, than 20% weaker, than Palpatine, which is the same as nearly as powerful.

Originally posted by Arhael
Because it makes sense to compare feats of books with books as they are portrayed more realistically. And even, if we consider game on first place, it takes us back, where we started because in game we have actual fightq between them which ends, when Marek pawns Sidious to the floor.

Palpatine was clearly holding back. Hell, even Vader put up a better fight than that.

Originally posted by Arhael
You say in non of the sources Marek fights back? What then Yoda does, when Palpatine electrocutes? Why Sidious have that "OH! SHIT!" face before explosion happens?

Maybe it means Marek did not try to use Palpatine's own lightning against him, but instead used all of his own power to try to kill Palpatine, which didn't do shit.

Marek used his most powerful attack against Sidious, destroying the emperor's tower and killing himself in the process, and failed to even put a scratch on Sidious (well I believe the comic showed a little cut on Palpatine's face, but you know what I'm getting at). So what are you trying to argue exactly? If that doesn't prove that Marek clearly wasn't strong enough to defeat Palpatine then I don't know what will.

Originally posted by Arhael
And if we consider Marek's darkside ending, on darkside his main source of power was rage and desire for vengeance. After killing Vader he fulfilled his main goal and had no more strong emotions to draw on.

What???? lol

Originally posted by Arhael
In any case canon passage is lightside, where Marek handles Palpatine in one cut scene and is able to resist lightning like Yoda in another scene. And I point out again that resisting lightning is not a fair power contest, it clearly favors Palpatine.

Marek dished out far more than what Palpatine dished out during their contest. Marek was killed while Palpatine was left unharmed.

Originally posted by Arhael
According to Lucas Vader was 80% of Palpatine's power and got utterly handled with TK. It already clarifies that Marek is less, than 20% weaker, than Palpatine, which is the same as nearly as powerful.

Lucas could have been referring to Vader's raw potential. Vader's mastery was greater than Anakin's, but for some reason after his injuries he was no longer able to draw upon his vast reserves of power. Palpatine believed it to be a psychological issue.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Palpatine was clearly holding back. Hell, even Vader put up a better fight than that.

Maybe it means Marek did not try to use Palpatine's own lightning against him, but instead used all of his own power to try to kill Palpatine, which didn't do shit.

Marek used his most powerful attack against Sidious, destroying the emperor's tower and killing himself in the process, and failed to even put a scratch on Sidious (well I believe the comic showed a little cut on Palpatine's face, but you know what I'm getting at). So what are you trying to argue exactly? If that doesn't prove that Marek clearly wasn't strong enough to defeat Palpatine then I don't know what will.

What???? lol

Marek dished out far more than what Palpatine dished out during their contest. Marek was killed while Palpatine was left unharmed.

Lucas could have been referring to Vader's raw potential. Vader's mastery was greater than Anakin's, but for some reason after his injuries he was no longer able to draw upon his vast reserves of power. Palpatine believed it to be a psychological issue.

And sacrifice wasn't aimed to kill Palpatine either

Oh, so that's why Palpatine survived. Because Marek didn't mean for the explosion to kill him. It was only meant to destroy the tower and all the stormtroopers.

lmao

Haha wut? A sacrificial last stand explosion was purposefully underwhelmed because God forbid you take out the evil dictator during your martyrdom?

Lawl.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Oh, so that's why Palpatine survived. Because Marek didn't mean for the explosion to kill him. It was only meant to destroy the tower and all the stormtroopers.

lmao

"No!" the apprentice cried, dropping his defenses to strike one last time at the Imperials.

Clearly his intention was to save rebels, not to kill Emperor. If not concern for rebels, there would be no need for him to create that explosion.

Palpatine was an Imperial. 😐

Plus he was the closest to the explosion, so he'd be hit the hardest. It makes no sense that it would have affected Palpatine less than everyone else.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Palpatine was an Imperial. 😐

Plus he was the closest to the explosion, so he'd be hit the hardest. It makes no sense that it would have affected Palpatine less than everyone else.

Yes, he was hit the hardest and I am not trying to disprove it.
My point is that Marek could continue fighting but decided to sacrifice himself instead.

Uh, duh. We all know that.

Not all of you. 🙂

Maybe it means Marek did not try to use Palpatine's own lightning against him, but instead used all of his own power to try to kill Palpatine, which didn't do shit.