Ultimate Sith Fight Winner Take All

Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon
And were in the process of doing this when Kreia arrived, yes, which afforded her time to attack them telekinetically.

And they were aware of her once she decided to attack them with her weak Giga-drain.

Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon

Not at all. Not only were they completely focused on the Exile, allowing Traya her opportunity, when they recover, one even tells Kreia: "I thought you'd died in the Mandalorian Wars..."

They wouldn't try to kill the Exile and just allow her companions to gun her down.

And they had ample time to defend or attack, once aware of Kreia.

Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon

Four seconds, actually. Plenty of time to react for some of these Sith Lords.

One second, actually - two, if you count the time right before they drop on the ground, dead.

YouTube video

Attack begins at 8:43

8:44 she's finished

8:45 she retracts the beam, and they fall

Also, they're stunned while the beam strikes them, so I hope the Sith don't have anything to tally off their bucket list before they die. 🙂

Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon

I'm not sure, since it is the Exile who actually speaks first, issuing threats, and Tobin expresses Nihilus's complete disinterest in her and her companions.

Exactly - he doesn't give a damn enough to want to drain them at first - until the Exile props the idea.

Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon
That Kreia is unaware of a defense whilst Ulic does is not evidence that the attacks are different; it is merely proof that Kreia, contrary to the "skewed interpretation" some ascribe to her, doesn't know everything.

Kreia was a historian. Historians don't just study history, they record it. I find it highly implausible that she wouldn't know about the Dark Reaper.

Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon
Is there evidence that the ones who ran were the trained Force users of which I speak? Is there any evidence that they had time to conclude it was a Force based attack that could be prepared? Not dying immediately isn't synonymous with being prepared, though I thank you for clearing up the fact that Nihilus's drain isn't instantaneous. So much for everyone dying when he spoke, eh?

If Obi-Wan could feel the destruction of Alderaan half-way across the galaxy do you really think that the Jedi Enclave wouldn't feel the destruction all life on the planet they were standing on? Worse, the complete absense in the Force the attack brings? Do you think they'd just stand there blindly doing nothing while it devoured them?

No, it isn't. We even have a reasonable time-fram since just before the attack the narration says that in under and hour nothing would still be alive on the planet. Katarr was a planet and the attack reached all corners of it in under an hour, placing the attack in the range of moving tens of thousands of miles per hour. Well beyond anything that would enable any of the combatants time to dodge or put up a defence after it had been used in close proximity.

Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon

Spoiler:
I'm not sure if you remember this, but it was I (and not you) who first broke the news to Janus and co. that Vitiate's mind thrall wasn't instantaneous. What you failed to take into consideration that the melee may allow Vitiate to pull off such an effort should he not be attacked in time.

How could I remember when you've only been a member for under a week? And thats quite a funny thing to say given that you've strongly assumed that Nihilus will be attacked instantly. Will the melee give him enough time to pull off anything should he not be attacked in time too?

Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon
What's more important is that you're still getting bent out of shape on all things Nihilus, so maybe things never do change. 😬

I would say that you're the one bent out of shape. What I'm merely doing is attempting to straighten you out a bit.

Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon
There is a difference between psychological manipulation (what Traya does) and psychic manipulation (what Vitiate does). Traya is not, to my knowledge, an expert on using the Force to manipulate the mentality and perceptions of those around here, whereas Vitiate is.

All Sith Lords are experts in manipulating the mentality and perceptions of those around them through the Force, to some extent. She is the Lord of Betrayal.

You're a smart guy - you do the math there. 😉

Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon

Traya's commentary on Nihilus's mentality is speculative in nature; Nihilus shows signs of a functioning intellect throughout the game, whether it is his methodical hunt for Jedi, his manipulation of Vaklu, and his calculated betrayal of Kreia. Obviously there is no question that he is intellectually outmatched by others here, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have one of his own.

What I mean, and what they mean, is that Nihilus's greatest Master, and the one he takes all mental commands from, before others, is his Hunger.

That's his Will - to break it, you have to break his Hunger. Good luck to them with that.

If the fight was spaced out, the Sith lords could just try to lure Nihilus one way or another - but Nihilus's prey all grouped in one spot - he doesn't need any cajoling, any deals or anything - he has them, right where he wants them.

Traya is indeed a telepath. Early in the game she reads Attons mind despite him being trained to prevent that and later teaches the Exile to do the same. She also communicates with Atris telepathically across the galaxy and I think she psychically manipulates her later on based on how out of it Atris is in that scene, but I don't think its ever provable shown.

Battlemaster
And they were aware of her once she decided to attack them with her weak Giga-drain.

But you claimed that they'd prepared for the Exile's companions, which clearly isn't true.

Battlemaster
They wouldn't try to kill the Exile and just allow her companions to gun her down.

Given that the Exile's companions weren't present when the attack began and they devoted their entire attention to the process of stripping the Exile of the Force, they clearly weren't concerned with intervention from her companions.

Battlemaster
And they had ample time to defend or attack, once aware of Kreia.

Certainly, the fact that they didn't is irrelevant since Nihilus's opponents here are, by all accounts, considerably more powerful than Kreia's adversaries.

Battlemaster
One second, actually - two, if you count the time right before they drop on the ground, dead.

My video says differently:

YouTube video

The attack begins at 4:50 and they drop at 4:54.

Battlemaster
Also, they're stunned while the beam strikes them, so I hope the Sith don't have anything to tally off their bucket list before they die.

That the Council was immobilized doesn't mean that the Sith Lords here will be.

Battlemaster
Exactly - he doesn't give a damn enough to want to drain them at first - until the Exile props the idea.

The Exile warns him not to. From the video that I've seen, there is no interrogation. Nihilus senses the intruders, deems them threatening enough to stun them, the Exile breaks the silence to notify Nihilus that he was duped by Traya and that he shouldn't drain them, and he does. As with Kreia and Katarr, Nihilus is not shown to wield his attack against a fully prepared adversary.

N.
Kreia was a historian. Historians don't just study history, they record it. I find it highly implausible that she wouldn't know about the Dark Reaper.

Who said she didn't know about the Dark Reaper? Even if she did, there's no reason to conclude she understood it intimately, especially compared to Ulic, who commanded the weapon under Exar Kun and devised the means to resist it. Historians aren't infallible and there is no reason to conclude Kreia is the exception to the rule.

N.
If Obi-Wan could feel the destruction of Alderaan half-way across the galaxy do you really think that the Jedi Enclave wouldn't feel the destruction all life on the planet they were standing on? Worse, the complete absense in the Force the attack brings? Do you think they'd just stand there blindly doing nothing while it devoured them?

Who said they wouldn't feel a disturbance in the Force? That doesn't mean that the disturbance originates from Force use: the example you cite is proof enough of that. The Death Star was an artificial device that had nothing to do with the Force and still prompted a massive disturbance. Who's to say that those on Katarr didn't assume it was some sort of technological or natural catastrophe, especially given the physical damage?

N.
How could I remember when you've only been a member for under a week?

Spoiler:
I am Iron ManGideon.

N.
And thats quite a funny thing to say given that you've strongly assumed that Nihilus will be attacked instantly. Will the melee give him enough time to pull off anything should he not be attacked in time too?

Absolutely, if Nihilus were given time to utilize his drain, he would kill all but those who can shield themselves from him or {possibly} those who can conceal themselves in the Force.

N.
I would say that you're the one bent out of shape. What I'm merely doing is attempting to straighten you out a bit.

Nonsense, you're clearly seething with rage. Calm down, my son. My wrath shall be swift and my hands gentle.

I'm not supposed to talk to Gideon.

It is forbidden.

Battlemaster
All Sith Lords are experts in manipulating the mentality and perceptions of those around them through the Force, to some extent. She is the Lord of Betrayal.

This is a dangerously broad generalization and Traya's self-proclaimed title hardly proves that she is an expert in such areas, let alone to the extent of Vitiate and Sidious.

Battlemaster
You're a smart guy - you do the math there. 😉

I am and I have. The math says that there is no proof that Traya is an expert in the realm of psychic manipulation and that there is a vast difference between manipulations psychological (i.e. Traya & Sidious) and psychic (Vitiate).

Battlemaster
What I mean, and what they mean, is that Nihilus's greatest Master, and the one he takes all mental commands from, before others, is his Hunger.

That's his Will - to break it, you have to break his Hunger. Good luck to them with that.

Should Vitiate take control of his mind, it's irrelevant.

Battlemaster
If the fight was spaced out, the Sith lords could just try to lure Nihilus one way or another - but Nihilus's prey all grouped in one spot - he doesn't need any cajoling, any deals or anything - he has them, right where he wants them.

Because Nihilus isn't shown to prepared Force users, I'm hesitant to say he could. Additionally, Vader and Dooku are capable of shielding themselves from his powers. Even if he could drain the others, Dooku and Vader together are far too dangerous for him with only conventional skill at his disposal.

Battlemaster
Traya is indeed a telepath. Early in the game she reads Attons mind despite him being trained to prevent that and later teaches the Exile to do the same. She also communicates with Atris telepathically across the galaxy and I think she psychically manipulates her later on based on how out of it Atris is in that scene, but I don't think its ever provable shown.

Of course Traya is a telepath, as most Jedi and Sith are, but that's not what I was disputing.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm not supposed to talk to Gideon.

It is [b]forbidden. [/B]

Do not fear, for I am with you always.

Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon
Of course Traya is a telepath, as most Jedi and Sith are, but that's not what I was disputing.

According to what I've read on the subject on Wookiepedia, while all Jedi and Sith are telepaths, most of them can just read emotions and sense people. Few can actually read thoughts or communicate telepathically.

Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon
Do not fear, for I am with you always.

No. Its wrong. Its dirty. Its... taboo.

Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon
But you claimed that they'd prepared for the Exile's companions, which clearly isn't true.
Given that the Exile's companions weren't present when the attack began and they devoted their entire attention to the process of stripping the Exile of the Force, they clearly weren't concerned with intervention from her companions.

They prepared for a fight, period.

They were prepared to kill, or strip. (And not in the way you're thinking 😛 😉)

Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon

Certainly, the fact that they didn't is irrelevant since Nihilus's opponents here are, by all accounts, considerably more powerful than Kreia's adversaries.

Point is, them attacking her, once she used the Giga-drain, would be irrevelent because they would be stunned and killed within a second.

Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon

My video says differently:

YouTube video

The attack begins at 4:50 and they drop at 4:54.

Yep, and in mine she takes them out in a second.

And stuns them all the while.

Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon

That the Council was immobilized doesn't mean that the Sith Lords here will be.

Really, how would they not be immobilized?

Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon

The Exile warns him not to. From the video that I've seen, there is no interrogation. Nihilus senses the intruders, deems them threatening enough to stun them, the Exile breaks the silence to notify Nihilus that he was duped by Traya and that he shouldn't drain them, and he does. As with Kreia and Katarr, Nihilus is not shown to wield his attack against a fully prepared adversary.

Point is - Giga-drain already stuns the opponants - stunning them and then Giga-draining them would be redundant, since the latter already contains the former's effects.

If he wanted them stunned to kill or drained - he'd Giga-drain them.

As you pointed out earlier, he wasn't concerned with them initially, and stunned them long enough to allow them to ask questions and respond - ala interrogation.

And again, by the time Kreia had made herself known, the Jedi Masters were still alive, and prepared to attack or defend.

Like Neph and Battlemaster's points here. Also, totally forgot Kreia was a friggin' mind reader. I need to rebuy KotOR II.

It's down to Bane, Vader, Dooku, or Krayt. Very interesting....

Nephthys
No. Its wrong. Its dirty. Its... [b]taboo. [/B]

le gasp

I wonder if I get an informer's bonus for reporting you. You know, like the SS grants me a pardon if I tell them you're under the floorboards?

Nah, its a completely thankless job. Trust me.

Damn. I was hoping Christoph Waltz would reward me. Went out and bought milk and everything.

Am I the Jewish chick in this analogy? uhuh

Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon
Am I the Jewish chick in this analogy? uhuh

Your gun is effeminate. uhuh

It comes with a matching purse.

UMAD BRO

YES BECAUSE I BELIEVE I DIE AT THE END OF THIS FILM