Ultimate Sith Fight Winner Take All

Originally posted by ares834
Which had nothing to do with lackluster combat skills though.

As for the quote, Lucas was talking about the lightsaber duels and why they would be flashier when he mentions it. Therefore, the reasonable conclusion would be that it applies to combat.

Did Lucas declared PT era Jedi Order as Golden on the basis of innovations made in lightsaber combat styles during this era? Your assertion seems to indicate so.

From The Official Star Wars Fact File #107:

"[Masters Windu & Yoda] knew that, with the Force Harvester in his grasp, Dooku would be able to use a Sith weapon only one man knew how to defeat -- and he'd been dead for a thousand years."

^ Apparently Ulic didn't share his technique for resisting the Force Harvester with his fellow Jedi, which could explain Kreia's ignorance. More important is the quote from the same issue:

"The ancient Jedi Master warned that the knowledge he would pass to Anakin would let him resist the effects of the Force-stripping Harvester and the Dark Reaper it activated, but it would perhaps give him too much power."

Though I'm skeptical that the Reaper's drain is any different from Nihilus's, the wording is absolute: Anakin is immune to the effects of the Force-stripping artifact. Regardless of what else ensues from Nihilus's drain, Anakin/Vader can't be stripped of the Force.

Wouldn't that first quote include Dooku as well? And also destroy your theory that you can resist the technique by hiding yourself in the Force?

Nephthys
Wouldn't that first quote include Dooku as well?

To the extent that the Jedi know.

Nephthys
And also destroy your theory that you can resist the technique by hiding yourself in the Force?

I never said you can resist the Force drain by concealing yourself in the Force. {And if I did, I misspoke.} I said that one wouldn't drain what one didn't know was there, meaning by hiding one's self in the Force, one would be denying Nihilus a target.

Shut down from the Force and get shot by a random blaster bolt unable to anticipate it.

Yeah, I need to write a dissertation. I'll reply l8ter.

Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon
From The Official Star Wars Fact File #107:

"[Masters Windu & Yoda] knew that, with the Force Harvester in his grasp, Dooku would be able to use a Sith weapon only one man knew how to defeat -- and he'd been dead for a thousand years."

^ Apparently Ulic didn't share his technique for resisting the Force Harvester with his fellow Jedi, which could explain Kreia's ignorance. More important is the quote from the same issue:

"The ancient Jedi Master warned that the knowledge he would pass to Anakin would let him resist the [b]effects of the Force-stripping Harvester and the Dark Reaper it activated, but it would perhaps give him too much power."

Though I'm skeptical that the Reaper's drain is any different from Nihilus's, the wording is absolute: Anakin is immune to the effects of the Force-stripping artifact. Regardless of what else ensues from Nihilus's drain, Anakin/Vader can't be stripped of the Force. [/B]

1. The above quite apparently indicates that only Ulic knew how to "resist" the Force Drain. Whether or not this includes Dooku and Sidious, as they are also potentially lumped in with this generalization (depends on if the quote is from their perspective solely or omniscient narrator) ought to be cleared up.

2. "Resist" is not the same as "immune"; I can resist gravity, but I am not immune to it.

Context is important.

As for Ares, LeGenD does have a point here. I've firmly established that GL's absolute doctrine is G-canon centric and he is by his own admission - multiple times mind you - ignorant of EU and claims it is "not his world" and it is a parallel world.

So in the context of an EU + G-canon continuity, we would not take his ignorant words as entirely absolute when we may have reason to believe otherwise. Especially when you have things like Fightsaber which clearly establish the majority of the Jedi in the PT era as having mastered the blatantly inferior Diplomat's Form of Niman, which also explicitly lead to the numerous deaths on Genoshia. Then you have multiple instances where the Jedi, including Yoda and Mace Windu, reflect that the role of warrior-general does not befit the Jedi, that the new era is one of peace and prosperity, and that war is not in accord with the Jedi Code.

... Versus an era where numerous large scale wars, usually against Force using opponents (The Krath, Exar Kun, Mandalorians, Jedi Civil War, the Purge, etc.)

Unless you apply a singular quote without context, there's no way you could successfully argue PT era conclusively > TOR era.

Resist can mean the same as immune however. And, as seen in the game, Anakin's defense makes the Dark Reapers draining abilities have no effect on him.

Also I'm not arguing that the PT era is greater than the KotOR era, but rather that KotOR era wasn't weak and that GL's quote was about combat. Which quote holds precedence over the other is irrelevant to what I was saying.

Originally posted by ares834
The problem is there is no reason to believe that the Dark Reaper's drain isn't the same as Nihilus's. (By comparison Bane's drain turns people to ash.) Arguing that the drains are different is like arguing their is a difference between Sith Lightning and Force Lightning.

Or like there's a difference between Sith Lightning and Emerald Lightning?

All Force abilities are not the same - there's a reason Bane and Palpatine could never kill off entire planets and drain their energy - that is a rare abilitity - and with only one Canonical immunity - being a Force Wound.

And there's no reason to believe that the Dark Reaper's drain and Nihilus's drain are the same. Last I checked, the Dark Reaper didn't sever a person's connection to the Force - it just drains them of energy and fires it back at them.

Originally posted by ares834

Nihilus's ability isn't unique to him. Sith Assassins and Kreia could all use it.

Mhm. They could. 🙂

Originally posted by ares834

So don't pretend being a wound or being some phantasm is required to use the ability.

Don't pretend that there is any verified immunity to it, other than being a Force Wound.

If you think the Dark Reaper stuff provides an immunity - go write a Fanfic about it - but we're arguing Canon here, so save the Fanfic for later. 😉

Originally posted by ares834

and Malak

Proof?

Originally posted by ares834

Only according to Kreia and she claims there was [B]no defense. And we know how correct that information ends up being. [/B]

Right and she was correct.

There is no defense or technique against the drain - only the Exile's nature as a Force Wound in correlation with Nihilus, provided her with the immunity.

SM
1. The above quite apparently indicates that only Ulic knew how to "resist" the Force Drain. Whether or not this includes Dooku and Sidious, as they are also potentially lumped in with this generalization (depends on if the quote is from their perspective solely or omniscient narrator) ought to be cleared up.

The jury's out on Sidious. Dooku, on the other hand, was the one who activated the Force Harvester each and every time it was unleashed, indicating that he too was immune to its effects.

SM
2. "Resist" is not the same as "immune"; I can resist gravity, but I am not immune to it.

As Ares explained, the Reaper's draining powers cannot harm Anakin during the game.

SM
So in the context of an EU + G-canon continuity, we would not take his ignorant words as entirely absolute when we may have reason to believe otherwise.

This defies canon policy and everything we're told about from LFL officials, from Leland Chee to Chris Cerasi to Sue Rostini. Lucas is supreme over both worlds; the fact that he elects not to exercise this authority regularly doesn't mean it isn't there. He says emphatically that the prequels represents the "Golden Age of Jedi" and the films refer to lightsaber combat, Force use, and martial skills as "the Jedi arts" (per Qui-Gon).

Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon
From The Official Star Wars Fact File #107:

"[Masters Windu & Yoda] knew that, with the Force Harvester in his grasp, Dooku would be able to use a Sith weapon only one man knew how to defeat -- and he'd been dead for a thousand years."

^ Apparently Ulic didn't share his technique for resisting the Force Harvester with his fellow Jedi, which could explain Kreia's ignorance. More important is the quote from the same issue:

"The ancient Jedi Master warned that the knowledge he would pass to Anakin would let him resist the [b]effects of the Force-stripping Harvester and the Dark Reaper it activated, but it would perhaps give him too much power."

Though I'm skeptical that the Reaper's drain is any different from Nihilus's, the wording is absolute: Anakin is immune to the effects of the Force-stripping artifact. Regardless of what else ensues from Nihilus's drain, Anakin/Vader can't be stripped of the Force. [/B]

It's good. That means Anakin/Vader is immune to the Dark Reaper.

Not Nihilus.

When you post a link showing that the Dark Reaper and Nihilus are the same person, let me know.

If I have a built up immunity to spider-venom - that doesn't mean I'll survive when a rattlesnake bites me.

Even though both carry Venom, which is toxic substance.

I don't have to prove that Nihilus and the Reaper are the same. As Ares explained, the fact that both attacks derive from different sources doesn't mean that the attacks themselves are inherently different. There is a difference between "process" and "effect." While Nihilus may use a different process to strip the Force from his victims, the effect is the same: it siphons Force energy for the use of the attacker. The Fact File explicitly states Anakin is immune to the Harvester's "Force-stripping effects."

I've already discovered a way Palpatine can beat Nihilus. 😆

I don't know why we're arguing about a completely-speculative concept as the Dark Reaper and Nihilus being one and the same. 😛

If you guys think the Dark Reaper stuff provides an immunity to Nihilus - write a Fanfic about it! 🙂

I'd love to read it!

Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon
I don't have to prove that Nihilus and the Reaper are the same. As Ares explained, the fact that both attacks derive from different sources doesn't mean that the attacks themselves are inherently different. There is a difference between "process" and "effect." While Nihilus may use a different process to strip the Force from his victims, the effect is the same: it siphons Force energy for the use of the attacker. The Fact File explicitly states Anakin is immune to the Harvester's "Force-stripping effects."

No, dude. It doesn't matter.

They are two different things, with two different natures.

Nihilus is not the Dark Reaper - and it is Canonically stated that the only immunity to Nihilus's drain is a Force Wound.

That's Canon.

I respect your opinion - but it belongs in a Fanfic! 🙂

"Lord Nihilus, you escaped death by containing your consciousness within the Dark Reaper. How?!"
- Darth Krayt

😆 😆 😆

Battlemaster
No, dude. It doesn't matter.

They are two different things, with two different natures.

This argument has already been debunked first by Ares and then by me, but I'll repeat it one final time: the fact that the Dark Reaper is not Darth Nihilus does not require that the two attacks be inherently different. Likewise, the fact that one is an Eldritch Abomination and the other is a Sith-forged superweapon doesn't constitute inherent difference in attacks either.

That Nihilus applies a different process {with Force bonds, etc} than the Dark Reaper does not change the effect: the text clearly states that Anakin is immune to the Reaper's Force-stripping effects. Whatever else may happen, Nihilus won't be able to remove the Force from Anakin.

Battlemaster
Nihilus is not the Dark Reaper - and it is Canonically stated that the only immunity to Nihilus's drain is a Force Wound.

Nowhere is it said by any canonical source that the only immunity comes from being a wound in the Force.

Battlemaster
That's Canon.

No, that's Kreia.
The bottom line is that the explanation provided by the Fact File is completely sound. It explains why Kreia was ignorant of a defense. As Chris Avellone, lead writer of KotOR II explained, the ancient Sith (who created the Reaper) were afraid to use Nihilus's technique themselves because it would subsume their personalities as it did his. The Dark Reaper's existence links it; the ancient Sith need not fear the destruction of their identities as long as they had a machine to replicate the feat.

And we're again down to process vs. effect. Had the Fact File emphasized process, I would agree with you. But it didn't, so I don't. The Fact File says that Anakin can resist Force-stripping effects.

Feel free to denounce it as fanfic, but it's what the official fact file says. If someone else has a substantive rebuttal, I'll be willing to entertain it.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Or like there's a difference between Sith Lightning and Emerald Lightning?

The problem is Emerald Lightning isn't anything like lightning. In fact, according to Jacen it doesn't even kill its victims.

All Force abilities are not the same - there's a reason Bane and Palpatine could never kill off entire planets and drain their energy - that is a rare abilitity - and with only one Canonical immunity - being a Force Wound.

Palps actually was draining Byss...

Originally posted by Battlemaster
And there's no reason to believe that the Dark Reaper's drain and Nihilus's drain are the same. Last I checked, the Dark Reaper didn't sever a person's connection to the Force - it just drains them of energy and fires it back at them.

According to the quote Sargon supplied that's exactly what it did.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Proof?

In the Star Forge fight. Malak is draining his captive Jedi using their force energy to replenish him while simultaneously removing them from the force IIRC.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Right and she was correct. There is no defense or technique against the drain - only the Exile's nature as a Force Wound in correlation with Nihilus, provided her with the immunity.

✅

Which is a defense.

Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon
This argument has already been debunked first by Ares and then by me, but I'll repeat it one final time: the fact that the Dark Reaper is not Darth Nihilus does not require that the two attacks be inherently different. Likewise, the fact that one is an Eldritch Abomination and the other is a Sith-forged superweapon doesn't constitute inherent difference in attacks either.
That Nihilus applies a different process {with Force bonds, etc} than the Dark Reaper does not change the effect: the text clearly states that Anakin is immune to the Reaper's Force-stripping effects. Whatever else may happen, Nihilus won't be able to remove the Force from Anakin.
Nowhere is it said by any canonical source that the only immunity comes from being a wound in the Force.
No, that's Kreia.
The bottom line is that the explanation provided by the Fact File is completely sound. It explains why Kreia was ignorant of a defense. As Chris Avellone, lead writer of KotOR II explained, the ancient Sith (who created the Reaper) were afraid to use Nihilus's technique themselves because it would subsume their personalities as it did his. The Dark Reaper's existence links it; the ancient Sith need not fear the destruction of their identities as long as they had a machine to replicate the feat.
And we're again down to process vs. effect. Had the Fact File emphasized process, I would agree with you. But it didn't, so I don't. The Fact File says that Anakin can resist Force-stripping effects.
Feel free to denounce it as fanfic, but it's what the official fact file says. If someone else has a substantive rebuttal, I'll be willing to entertain it.

Okay, show us the Fact File - and what direct links it would have to Canon.

Let's look at this here - you could have something to work with..

Originally posted by ares834
The problem is Emerald Lightning isn't anything like lightning. In fact, according to Jacen it doesn't even kill its victims.

Exactly, genius. 😉

Force powers are not all the same, even if they appear similar, externally.

Originally posted by ares834

Palps actually was draining Byss...

Yeah, over the course of a decade - I guess he had more patience than Nihilus, eh? 😆

Originally posted by ares834

According to the quote Sargon supplied that's exactly what it did.

We'll see how much relevance Sargon's Fact File has.

Originally posted by ares834

In the Star Forge fight. Malak is draining his captive Jedi using their force energy to replenish him while simultaneously removing them from the force IIRC.

"IIRC"? Show me a Canon quote where it says he's removing them from the Force.

Originally posted by ares834

✅

Which is a defense.

She was speaking of technique or power - not a condition.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Exactly, genius. 😉

Force powers are not all the same, even if they appear similar, externally.

Except it doesn't appear similar... It doesn't have the same effect, the same name, or even look the same as Emerald "lightning" is described as "sparks" and "fire".

Yeah, over the course of a decade - I guess he had more patience than Nihilus, eh? 😆

I was just pointing out that he did, in fact, drain a planet.

We'll see how much relevance Sargon's Fact File has.

?

It's highly relevant.

"IIRC"? Show me a Canon quote where it says he's removing them from the Force.

"If I recall correctly". Its in the duel on the Starforge and I'm not going to play the game all the way through just to get a minor quote. Not to mention it truly is irrelevant as my point was to show others could use drain despite not being wounds in the force.

She was speaking of technique or power - not a condition.

Really? She never once makes the distinction in that scene. All shes says is: "There are techniques within the force against which there is no defense." Seems to be her lies and half-truths as usual.

Spoiler:
Nah, I'm just being an ass. In this case you're right that seems to be what she is saying. Doesn't mean she is correct though.