Ultimate Sith Fight Winner Take All

Originally posted by ares834
Except it doesn't appear similar... or even look the same as Emerald "lightning" is described as "sparks" and "fire".

Could've fooled me. 🙂

Originally posted by ares834

I was just pointing out that he did, in fact, drain a planet.

Yeah, over the course of a decade, and he didn't even kill the people with the drain.

Originally posted by ares834

?

It's highly relevant.

Yep. We'll see.

Originally posted by ares834

"If I recall correctly". Its in the duel on the Starforge and I'm not going to play the game all the way through just to get a minor quote. Not to mention it truly is irrelevant as my point was to show others could use drain despite not being wounds in the force.

You don't need to play the game, Buddy. Just prove your point with a quote. 🙂

Originally posted by ares834

Really? She never once makes the distinction in that scene. All shes says is: "There are techniques within the force against which there is no defense." Seems to be her lies and half-truths as usual.

Spoiler:
Nah, I'm just being an ass. In this case you're right that seems to be what she is saying. Doesn't mean she is correct though.

She turned out to be correct, though. 😉

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Okay, show us the Fact File - and what direct links it would have to Canon.

Here's a description of what the Official Fact File is.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Let's look at this here - you could have something to work with..

Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon
Here's a description of what the Official Fact File is.

Okay, fair enough. But the stuff you've presented here doesn't tell any more than what we've already seen elsewhere.

It doesn't prove that Nihilus and the Dark Reaper are the same, nor that training against the Dark Reaper would have any effect against Nihilus.

Do you have anything more concrete?

Edit - Though I do appreciate you going out of your way to get this.

Also, I'm not trolling. I just think that saying would look really funny as my sig. 😆

But seriously, you are doing a really good job at defending your position - I did underestimate you as a debator - but no more.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Could've fooled me. 🙂

In that book, hell in that series, Luke never uses Emerald Lightning. He only uses it in NJO where it is descriibed as "sparks" and "fire" not electricity. So basically it's not a canon depiction of emerald lightning.

You don't need to play the game, Buddy. Just prove your point with a quote. 🙂

To get the quote would require me to play the game (as I have yet to see a video where they investigate the drained Jedi). And once again, it's not relevant.

Originally posted by ares834
In that book, hell in that series, Luke never uses Emerald Lightning. He only uses it in NJO

Can you prove that?

Originally posted by ares834

To get the quote would require me to play the game (as I have yet to see a video where they investigate the drained Jedi). And once again, it's not relevant.

No, no - you do have a point, and I would love to see proof of it.

I'm sure it would likely be referenced somewhere else than in in-game, too. 🙂

Battlemaster
Edit - Though I do appreciate you going out of your way to get this.

You're welcome. Fact Files are extremely elusive these days, unless you're willing to shell out copious amounts of cash for a physical copy, which I'm not.

Battlemaster
It doesn't prove that Nihilus and the Dark Reaper are the same,

They're not the same and no one claimed they were. Darth Nihilus is a living entity; the Dark Reaper is an artificial construct forged by the ancient Sith.

Battlemaster
nor that training against the Dark Reaper would have any effect against Nihilus.

And we're back to process vs. effect. The process by which Nihilus and the Reaper drain life may differ, but the result is the same. Both strip Force energy from their victims. Anakin is immune to its effects.

Battlemaster
Do you have anything more concrete?

If you're expecting me to produce a quote that says something along the lines of "...and at the heart of the dormant Dark Reaper lurked the insidious essence of Darth Nihilus, who fueled the Force Harvester's energy-sapping effects with his own dark powers," then no.

This is elementary inductive reasoning, nothing particularly complex or farfetched. I've produced the evidence, provided a thorough explanation of why it fits, and you can accept it or reject it to your heart's content, but I'm uninterested in taking it any further if this is the route you want to head down.

Likewise, the pro-Nihilus faction have utilized inductive reasoning as well as the entire basis for why Nihilus could drain anyone bar the Exile, even though there's nothing concrete that says this is the case. Where is the quote that says he can drain Sidious? Vader? Bane? There isn't any, so should we conclude that he can't do it?

If that's where this debate is going, then it's a waste of time.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Can you prove that?

How? By posting every single other book Luke's in... Yeah, no. Pretty much impossible to prove a negative. If you have a scene where he uses it in the DNT then post the scene.

Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon

And we're back to process vs. effect. The process by which Nihilus and the Reaper drain life may differ, but the result is the same. Both strip Force energy from their victims. Anakin is immune to its effects.

Right, he's immune to the effects of the Dark Reaper.

There's nothing to suggest in any official capacity that it would make him immune to Nihilus's drain as well.

Canon for KotoRII indicates it's a Force Wound.

Everything else was ruled out, hence only the Exile being able to stop him.

Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon

If you're expecting me to produce a quote that says something along the lines of "...and at the heart of the dormant Dark Reaper lurked the insidious essence of Darth Nihilus, who fueled the Force Harvester's energy-sapping effects with his own dark powers," then no.

LOL.

Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon

This is elementary inductive reasoning, nothing particularly complex or farfetched. I've produced the evidence, provided a thorough explanation of why it fits, and you can accept it or reject it to your heart's content, but I'm uninterested in taking it any further if this is the route you want to head down.

Likewise, the pro-Nihilus faction have utilized inductive reasoning as well as the entire basis for why Nihilus could drain anyone bar the Exile, even though there's nothing concrete that says this is the case. Where is the quote that says he can drain Sidious? Vader? Bane? There isn't any, so should we conclude that he can't do it?

If that's where this debate is going, then it's a waste of time.

Look - you are a very smart guy, to say the least. I've come to know that about you.

I think from a logistical point of view, you're actually onto something here.

However, from a Canon perspective, only the Exile and her unique condition were capable of immunity to Nihilus.

Anything else is pure speculation and best belongs in a Fanfic.

- In other words - from a logistical standpoint, I would agree with you, and I would support the things you've said too.

But from a Canonical standpoint within the Universe, your viewpoints, however logical, are purely speculative.

Originally posted by ares834
How? By posting every single other book Luke's in... Yeah, no. Pretty much impossible to prove a negative. If you have a scene where he uses it in the DNT then post the scene.

It was your claim that he doesn't use it after NJO. The burden of proof is upon you. 🙂

Originally posted by Battlemaster
It was your claim that he doesn't use it after NJO. The burden of proof is upon you. 🙂

Thankfully it doesn't work that way.

My posistion relies on the lack of evidence. It's analgous to you saying "Darth Vader never uses force drain" and me asking for you to prove it.

Hoever if you want me to prove it here you go:

http://sweu.ru/index.php/bookshelf/2010-03-10-13-10-45/2010-03-10-13-16-26.html

Down there in the Dark Nest Trilogy.

Originally posted by ares834
Thankfully it doesn't work that way.

My posistion relies on the lack of evidence. It's analgous to you saying "Darth Vader never uses force drain" and me asking for you to prove it.

Hoever if you want me to prove it here you go:

http://sweu.ru/index.php/bookshelf/2010-03-10-13-10-45/2010-03-10-13-16-26.html

Down there in the Dark Nest Trilogy.

😛 More like I was assuming you were basing your claim of Luke never using Emerald Lightning off of knowledge.

However, if you don't even really know of whether he actually used Emerald Lightning or not after NJO and you're just claiming things out of your ass, then I suppose you don't have an argument to make here after all, so it's okay. 🙂

Originally posted by Battlemaster
😛 More like I was assuming you were basing your claim of Luke never using Emerald Lightning off of knowledge.

What?

Originally posted by Battlemaster
However, if you don't even really know of whether he actually used Emerald Lightning or not after NJO and you're just claiming things out of your ass, then I suppose you don't have an argument to make here after all, so it's okay. 🙂

Lol...

I actually have read all the books set after NJO. And I can say that he doesn't display it afterwards. If you got evidence to the contrary post it.

If you expect that some source book says "and Luke never used Emerald Lightning after defeating the Vong" you are sorely mistaken. Rather, the proof relies on every line in every book set after NJO.

"Drain life: a delicate procedure that saps the life energy of another and funnels it directly into your own essence. It is extremely difficult to employ in combat and is derived from the teachings of Zelashiel the Blasphemer in the Holocron of Darth Revan." Book of Sith, pg. 94

Originally posted by ares834
What?Lol...

I actually have read all the books set after NJO. And I can say that he doesn't display it afterwards. If you got evidence to the contrary post it.
If you expect that some source book says "and Luke never used Emerald Lightning after defeating the Vong" you are sorely mistaken. Rather, the proof relies on every line in every book set after NJO.

Well, I did some research and the only source I can find of Emerald Lightning looking like sparks, rather than bolts, is when Luke used it on Shimmra.

Haven't read or seen anything to suggest Jacen's was like Lukes either.

And I know that when Plo Koon used it, it was bolts, just like regular Force lightning - meaning they do look similar. 😛

So nice try - I give you an A for effort. 😉

Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon
"Drain life: a delicate procedure that saps the life energy of another and funnels it directly into your own essence. It is extremely difficult to employ in combat and is derived from the teachings of Zelashiel the Blasphemer in the Holocron of Darth Revan." Book of Sith, pg. 94

There are many different types of drain. But nice find.

Battlemaster
Look - you are a very smart guy, to say the least. I've come to know that about you.

I think from a logistical point of view, you're actually onto something here.

However, from a Canon perspective, only the Exile and her unique condition were capable of immunity to Nihilus.

Anything else is pure speculation and best belongs in a [B]Fanfic.

- In other words - from a logistical standpoint, I would agree with you, and I would support the things you've said too.

But from a Canonical standpoint within the Universe, your viewpoints, however logical, are purely speculative. [/B]

Then we're at an impasse. Neither of us has the sort of evidence you're looking for {a quote that says Character X can defeat/resist the effects of Character Y}, which means neither side can prove their case under your very strict standard for what does and what does not constitute evidence.

Have you guys considered there might be another way for Palpatine to defeat Nihilus?

One that's likely alot more clear-cut?

In lieu of evidence that explicitly confirms [concretely] that Nihilus can defeat Palpatine or vice versa, there's no point in even asking the question.

Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon
Then we're at an impasse. Neither of us has the sort of evidence you're looking for {a quote that says Character X can defeat/resist the effects of Character Y}, which means neither side can prove their case under your very strict standard for what does and what does not constitute evidence.

It's just Canon, buddy - that's all.

KotoRII made it clear it was Force Wounds only - and nothing has contradicted it, since.

Everything else is speculation.

But, there is another method.

Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon
In lieu of evidence that explicitly confirms [concretely] that Nihilus can defeat Palpatine or vice versa, there's no point in even asking the question.

No - there is a way.

Palpatine can actually defeat Darth Nihilus.