You posted a bunch of oversize scans that didnt at all prove what u desire them to prove. How annoying.I have just finished an extensive battlezone on this issue with Newjack and do not at all desire to rehash it with an obvious troll so this will be my last post to you on the matter bienwahtever your name is.
Originally posted by biensalsa
Plethora of other feats??? Besides being described as capable of withstanding the GRAVITATIONAL forces of a Neutron star, there is almost next to nothing on that level.
Having dormammus and Doc stranges attacks prove ineffectual and draining him (dormammu), downing Loki, overwhelming the Hulk, overwhelming and being unharmed by the defenders overwhelming and being unharmed by the nova corps, etc. This is in addition to the neutron star feat. They have also had their physical formidability and nigh invulnerability noted throughout their history. This is cut and dry stuff and no amount of your baseless conjecture with a whimisical disregard for on panel evidence will change that.
We must have read different issues because In Defenders 1 & 2 they are treated as CANON FODER (Hulk is trapped BEHIND the shield and not even paying attention to them, The mindless ones always attack everything that looks different to them and Hulk is not even paying attention to them, Hulk even last for a while without even defending himself from their attack)In Defenders #1, 2001 CANON FODER AGAIN (NAMOR and the Atlanteans underwater pushes the Mindless ones back, ALL OF THEM)
Yeah you either read a diffeent issue or your unsurprising inability to understand basic on panel depictions is at work again. By defenders 1 and 2 are u referring to defenders vol 3 issue 1 and 2 in which strange accidentally teleports Hulk to the other side of the dark dimensional barrier and in which Dormammu (and through which the author) specifically notes that Hulk is getting his ass handed to him by the mindless ones?
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/Hulk%20feats/MindlessonestroucingHulk.jpg
and in which we dont actually see hulk actually destroy even a single one of them? Yeah not cannon fodder, since from the dialogue its is made known that they are beating the hulk not the other way round. Before entering into a debate go learn the actual meaning of the terms cuz its clear that either comprehension or english straight up is not your strong suit.
Then,It was stated nowhere in the issue that it was the totality of the mindless ones. We have no idea the number of the force that happened to be passing through atlantis. So you can go feed your nonsensical lies to someone who hasnt read the comic. In addition to trying to present it as being the totality of the mindless ones, you brilliantly ( try to guess if im being sarcastic) post a scan from defenders v2 issue 1, in which the mindless ones appear for literally a page and all we are told is that Namors forces are beginning to drive them them back and away and around the city,which does not at all denigrate their durability as the mindless ones were merely passing through and simply attack anything that moves meaning they didnt have any desire to actually seize the city and we dont even see any of them actually destroyed or anything even close. Additionally even within that same issue u referenced we see Namor furious for being removed from the battle because of the great danger he knows the mindless ones pose to his homeland.
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/Hulk%20feats/Namormindlessones.jpg
None of that suggests cannon fodder and you clearly dont even know the meaning of the term.
Dr. Stranger comic books? MOSTLY CANON FODER AGAIN (There is even a point, in which Dr. Stranger ALONE destroys several of them AND Hulk manhandles like a dozen of them)
Based on average depiction they are certainly more durable than Ben grimm as they have consistently been decribed as nigh invulnerable and displayed that in battles against the likes of Strange, defenders, Dormammu, nova crops etc. Further the level of consistency doesnt even matter here since we KNOW that they are at their upper levels.
You can hold on to the low durability showings all you want but even your own other scans dont support what you are saying and we know specifically that the author intended them to be formidable enough to overwhelm Umar as they have clasically done to her brother. "Cannon fodder" level durability does not get you to being the greatest enemies of a dimension headed by two skyfather level deities. The evidence is clear.
sure You know they are "formidable" because like I said, is like a never ending army of Ben Grims that suffers from the ninja effect. The more they are the less effective they become.
lmao at the contradiction. You cant in the same vein claim that they are ONLY formidable because of their numbers and then claim that "the more they are the less effective they become". That is laughably illogical and really epitomizes the horrendous line of reasoning you are using to come to your conclusions facepalm.
Correct me if I'm wrong but hasn't Dr Stranger dealt with them alone? Hans't He being able to destroy several of them? Didn't He at one point while being the Sorcerer Supreme had enough DEFENSIVE power to muster a shield and push them back? For whatever reason Pak decided to Chump Umar as to say She can't defeat them, he forgot that Umar has enough defensive capabilities to create another shield and push them back, same shield that portected her from the collading force of Hulk and Betty.
I dont recall Dr strange single handedly dealing with/destroying the entire multitude of mindless ones at the same time. The barrier that keeps the mindless ones at bay has been something that they put up in the first place because destroying them is so damn hard let alone destroying their enitre horde. Pak didnt chump Umar. Thats what u call it because as usual u dont like what was shown on panel. Good thing he didnt care for butthurt battleboarders. In HOTM Umar needed Hulk to push the mindless ones back to a certain level before being able to recreate the barrier. Hence it is apparent that that barrier and the personal shield Umar used in the comic are fundamentally different (and since this magic with different conditions necessary for different spells this makes perfect sense). Further neither the sheild nor the barrier have a mutually dependent relationship with Umars offensive power and thus your attempt to denigrate the durability of the mindless ones or wilfully ignore whats on panels falls flat.
You nitpicking for non-existent inconsistencies cannot change what is incontrovertible on panel reality.
Yes it does, her defences are powerful anough to tank Hulk's attack meaning the same defensive power can push the mindless ones back. As a matter of fact, destroying and pushing back mindless ones back is not a feat only acomplished by HOTM Hulk is a feat that Ben Grim, Hulk, Namor, Thor, Dr. Stranger, Umar, Dormamuu, Spiderman and Torch have in common.
lolwut? Nonsense. You are generically grouping together her "defences" when it is clear that the her shields used against Hulk and BEttys collision, and the barrier that keeps out the mindless ones are not the same and you cannot at all prove that they have the same operation dynamics since the comics suggest otherwise. Namor and his forces succeeded in merely redirecting the mindless ones not harming or destroying them. They have shrugged off the continued assault of Dormammu and even drained his power. They have been described as too powerful for Umar to survive, and even in some of your very own scans been unharmed by attacks of the Hulk, Silver Surfer, and described by Doctor strange as foes of vast power against whom physical combat is futile. Save the low showing you are holding onto none of your scans even support what you are claiming.
Again Dr. Stranger's defensive capabilities have been enough to push them back out side the Dark Dimension and his Offensive capabilities have been enough to destroy several of them, while using a defensive shiled vs an army of endless enemies is the most effective way to keep them at bay, destroying them is not imposible, but it will implicate dealing with countless numbers of them at some point attrition will affect the attacker, so dealing with them in a generic matter is the most effective way. I/e creating a shield to push them back, why the writer forgot about this, is beyond my comprehension. Umar has actually restored the same barrier that was destroyed in HOTM and pushed the mindless ones by herself in Strange Tales #150, So Dr. Stranger remarks is contradictory to what We have seen in canon comics, but of course I do not expect everybody to know this facts when Dr. Stranger comics are not as popular as the Hulk. And of course I will wait for the asumption that the mindless ones were more powerful than before, but not the idea of Umar being weaker than before which IIRC it was said in HOTM.
And yet Dormammus capabilities have been drained when facing them and that same Dr strange has had failed to make any headway against them and has emphasized their high physicality level. They do have a level of inconsistency like every character but in terms of durability they have certainly not been traditionally portrayed as cannon fodder. Their tougheness/durability and numbers is what makes them powerful enemies of even skyfather level deities. You are trying to denigrate that toughness aspect in order to downplay the HOTM feat (despite them being described in this manner repeatedly and having feats corroborating it) when the high level of they were at WAS SPECIFICALLY MENTIONED IN THE COMIC. This is silly and shows your level of recalcitrance. It was not mentioned that Umar was weaker than before in the comic as that would contradict Paks entire authorial intention in HOTM. Furthermore we know that the mindless ones level of invulnerability/durability has fluctuated based on the writer, but the same DOES NOT go for Umar. Hence to think that Umar being unable to survive the mindless ones means that Pak out of the blue weakened Umar, a relatively consistent character, as opposed to it meaning that Pak wanted to show Hulks formidability by portraying the mindless ones at the high levels they have been portrayed at in the past is ludicrous
Ive read almost all of stranges history and Umar having restored the barrier in strange tales 150 really has little bearing on the occurrences in question (Heck she restored the barrier even in the HOTM arc itself).
It seems as a double starndard to say this instance is a high end Mindless ones, and Ben Grim's is a low feat, when in truth Ben's and HOTM is the average showing for them. Of course like I said, I don't expect everybody to know this, because Dr. Starnger collections are rare, very rare between comic book readers
There is no double standard here. We can determine that it is high end mindless ones based off of the statements regarding Umar within the comic. Additionally WBH did not have an established powerlevel (as Pak was still revealing the capabilities of the character) and thus his destroying of the mindless ones cannot be used to automatically infer that it was a low showing as that is assuming your conclusion and circular reasoning.Conversely, Ben Grimm spiderman etc do have established powerleves and them damaging the mindless ones can be inferred as a low showings based off of that. That incident further has no external reference solidifying the level the mindless ones were to be operating at (unlike the high level specification in HOTM) and so is not analogous to the HOTM arc in the slightest. Your "reasoning" is fallacious (circular reasoning fallacy) and thus completely off base.
Originally posted by biensalsa
As a matter of fact it has been said that Firelord can muster more heat than a sun, and both are CP wielders so him hurting the Surfer will fall into credible, but this is not about the SS and Firelord anyway, this Neutron star instance reffered to the mindless ones as being capable to survive the crushing gravity of the Neutron Star, not the actual heat of it, they do not have the best record vs energy attacks, explosions or fire at least not to be called HERALD level.
You completely missed the point of the analogy. Your question was whether i believed Hulk produces more energy than a neutron star due to the HOTM feat., and i explained why the question was wrongly structured using the analogy of firelord and surfer. Firelord may be able to create more intense heat than the sun but he does not output more energy than it. Moreover in the neutron star incident the mindless ones were actually put to mine inside of neutron stars so yes they would need to also be able to survive the heat of it as well as the gravitational pressures. Eiish.. That should not need to be explained. Heck im not even suggesting that their durability was at its utmost highest neutron star surviving levels just that it was clearly meant to be at its upper levels by Paks indications. Their durability has also never been described as being particular to some kind of attack (energy vs punches for instance) and so that factless conjecture will not get you anywhere. Differing performances against the different attack types are thus due to the differing strengths of the attacks and their varying portrayals under different writers rather than some weakness to any particular attack method.
At their upper levels, the mindless ones have been portrayed as nigh invulnerable, tireless physical power houses and thus DO have "herald level durability" based off the feats they have accomplished as well as descriptions of their formidability.
[QUOTE]So making this wrong asumption that Mindless ones are equal to heralds in durability is just silly, trying to rise their stock is funny since...well... they are pretty much canon foder and this time it was no exeption[/QUOTE]
Assumptions? heh, Even your own scans dont support them being cannon fodder. You are the one attempting to twist on panel occurences and flat out ignore what is presented on panel while holding on to low feats and failing to understand basic English....
I might have to add, there is at least two times in which the fragility of matter inside the dark dimension has been reffered, once was by Dr. Stranger who said the laws of reality do not apply in the dark dimension, the other one and probably the most important one that Hulk fans are not even remotely aware of, is the time in which Silver Surfer a very knowledble character when it comes to matter, described the matter inside the dark dimension as being weaker than regular matter outside of it.
Its funny how u think u r the only one who has read comics and yet cant even seem to properly present your own scans. Anyhow the Dr strange incident u are referrring to is just irrelevant and shows nothing of the sort (regarding the dark dimension being easier to destroy) and the postulation that surfer made regarding the fragility of the dark dimension was not made after some cosmic analysis of the dimensions matter but rather after the untimely collapse of a bridge that they were on.
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/Hulk%20feats/vcm_s_kf_repr_581x894.jpg
He takes a cursory examination based off the preceding events (collapse of the bridge) and comes to this conclusion. Further even if that was actually the case then, fast forward 20 years to the HOTM incident and id say its pretty far fetched to think that a one off non-authoritative suggestive statement made by the Surfer was even contemplated let alone taken into account by Pak when writing the scene in the HOTM, and thus find it asinine to think that the planet in the dark dimension that Hulk destroyed was intended to be weaker than a normal planet.
I still believe Hulk can bust a planet even though the one he busted was weaker than a normal planet, but from there to claim canon foder is herald level is well as I said before, kind of silly.
Your last set of scans epitomizes the impariments with logic and comprehension that have plagued u in this thread. You try to use those scans to show why the mindless ones ae "cannon fodder" and yet itheyshows nothing of the sort. In those very scans they are described as having juggernautic[I] power which is in line with their description as nigh invulnerable physical powerhouses. Their powerlevels are definitely played up. Hence in the comic they are NOT canon fodder but are rather being used to emphasize the formidability of Dormammu's forces. In that comic (Dr strange sorcerer supreme annual 4), Clea who is the supreme adept, used what looks less than a dozen mindless ones (7 by my count actually) to attack Dormammus stronghold during the War of the Seven Spheres. The mindless ones then even succeeded in reducing the citadels defenses to a small skeleton crew. It is thus painfully counter-intuitive to try to use this to [i]denigrate the mindless ones since we dont know the formidability of Dormammus full defenses (as tthe battle with the mindless ones had reduced to it to a small fraction of that, which clea and her band encountered). Doing so is assuming your conclusion and thus circular reasoning. I mean it was Dormammus citadel for the huge War of Seven Spheres between numerous high level magical powers and so common sense dictates its defense is hella impressive. What is really silly is the good job you are doing posting self defeating scans 👆
Anyhow, as Ive asserted and displayed, mindless ones at their upper levels definitely posess herald level durability (though herald is a rather vague term) based on numerous descriptions and actual feats. They can vary, but Pak establishes the strength level they are operating at within the comic (which is in line with authorial intent) which makes whatever variations in power irrelevant to this particular scene. It should thus be taken at facevalue for what Pak presented it to be. Keep the baseless conjecture to yourself. Peace
To wrap this up, here are scans in which Umar dscribes the mindless ones as nearly indestructible and in which Dr strange completely fails to harm them in any way:
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/Drstrangeonlyabletoforcethemindlessonesbackwithoutharmingthem.jpg
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/Drstrangeonlyabletoforcethemindlessonesbackwithoutharmingthem2.jpg
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/Drstrangeonlyabletoforcethemindlessonesbackwithoutharmingthemastheyarecalledindestructible.jpg
Thus as i said and have shown they do certainly have upper level portrayals in which they are rampaging extremely durable creatures and thus as seen, it is their numbers and durability which make them threats to the likes of Dormammu and Umar. They do have lower showings and vary with the writer but Pak specifically wrote them at this classic level and explicitly mentioned it within the comic. Any refusal to acknowledge this is blatantly incosistent with the comic and Paks authorial intent. Thats all there is to it.
Originally posted by Naija boy
To wrap this up, here are scans in which Umar dscribes the mindless ones as nearly indestructible and in which Dr strange completely fails to harm them in any way:http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/Drstrangeonlyabletoforcethemindlessonesbackwithoutharmingthem.jpg
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/Drstrangeonlyabletoforcethemindlessonesbackwithoutharmingthem2.jpg
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/Drstrangeonlyabletoforcethemindlessonesbackwithoutharmingthemastheyarecalledindestructible.jpgThus as i said and have shown they do certainly have upper level portrayals in which they are rampaging nigh invulnerable creatures and thus as seen, it is their numbers and durability which make them threats to the likes of Dormammu and Umar. They do have lower showings and vary with the writer but Pak specifically wrote them at this classic level and explicitly mentioned it within the comic. Any refusal to acknowledge this is blatantly incosistent with the comic and Paks authorial intent. Thats all there is to it.
Image not found! Ill respond later on to your whole post, but right now fix your links.
Originally posted by Naija boy
To wrap this up, here are scans in which Umar dscribes the mindless ones as nearly indestructible and in which Dr strange completely fails to harm them in any way:http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/Drstrangeonlyabletoforcethemindlessonesbackwithoutharmingthem.jpg
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/Drstrangeonlyabletoforcethemindlessonesbackwithoutharmingthem2.jpg
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/Drstrangeonlyabletoforcethemindlessonesbackwithoutharmingthemastheyarecalledindestructible.jpgThus as i said and have shown they do certainly have upper level portrayals in which they are rampaging extremely durable creatures and thus as seen, it is their numbers and durability which make them threats to the likes of Dormammu and Umar. They do have lower showings and vary with the writer but Pak specifically wrote them
at this classic level and explicitly mentioned it within the comic. Any refusal to acknowledge this is blatantly incosistent with the comic and Paks authorial intent. Thats all there is to it.
Links fixed
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/Drstrangemindlessones1.jpg
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/Drstrangemindlessones2.jpg
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/Drstrangemindlessones3.jpg
Now, u can go ahead with the fallacies (I know that strawmanning is a specialty of yours) 🙂
Re: What if WBH?
Originally posted by biensalsa
Since I arrive Here I read this notion of WBH being ubber powerful, because He melted Heralds, personally I think this is a silly idea, but I want to get what is the consensus around here, so in order to do this, WHAT IF We replace the victims of Hulk for established Heralds.This is the scenario
Hulk and Betty are about to bust a planet in the Dark Dimension, but this time instead of Mindless ones, Wendigo, Arm'chedon, Bi-Beast and Fin-Fan-Foom watching the fight. We have Gladiator, GL John Stewart, GL Kyle Ryner, BRB and Galactus Heralds (Terrax, Silver Surfer, Morg, Star Dust)
What will it be the most likely result after the planet buster?
1.- The Heralds are melted due to the incredible power of the Hulk.
2.- The Heralds are fine and they say nothing to Hulk since they are aware Hulk can potentially can bust a planet since 1970
Most if not all of these guys can withstand the core of stars (which is greater than what Hulk generated). The heralds are fine.
Originally posted by Naija boy
Links fixed
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/Drstrangemindlessones1.jpg
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/Drstrangemindlessones2.jpg
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/Drstrangemindlessones3.jpgNow, u can go ahead with the fallacies (I know that strawmanning is a specialty of yours) 🙂
For good measure and prior to the anticipated disregard, fallacy filled
arguments, and lowballing that is to come. Here are some additional instances of upper level portrayals of the mindless ones as tireless nigh invulnerable (and thus extremely durable) creatures capable of threatening the likes of Umar and Dormammu:
Indestructible threats to the Dark Dimension:
Again portrayed as nigh indestructable tireless engines of destruction i.e anything but cannon fodder
Again their formidability and power is noted by Rahl one of the members of Cleas rebellion group
Now to show that forcing them back is of little relevance, Here within the same issue and series in which their extreme durability had been repeatedly acknowledged and portrayed (Dr strange Master of mystic arts #73 specifically), Dr strange and another group of mystics are unable to destroy them but manage to merely push back a fair sized group of mindless ones.
Them having been pushed back as explained earlier is thus not a knock on their formidability when they are portrayed at their upper levels of durability.
And here in the now famous Neutron star feat
Again portrayed as nearly indestructible and unharmable by the Nova corps
Looking at this in addition to what Ive already shown (and this is just after only a little digging), this should make it abundantly clear that the mindless ones DO have numerous occurrences of being portrayed with top tier durability and this solidifies them as threats to the likes of Umar and Dormammu. Denying this is farcical and definitely trolling. Once again, they DO have showings below such a threat level but they become irrelevant because Pak specifically indicates that they are being portrayed as this level of a threat. The rest of the events are thus self explanatory.
lol the strawmanning starts early I see. Im trying to show that the mindless ones at their upper end levels and thus based on their upper end feats alone (since those are the only ones that are relevant) have herald level durability specifically, NOT that with the totality of their abilities nor the totality of their portrayals they are powerful enough to fall into the herald category.
Hmm conversely if you are claiming that even with their highest end feat they arent herald level durable than thanks for once again validating my decision not to get into a prolonged wall of text back and forth with an obvious troll. I mean tanking the heat pressures and gravity of a neutron star and being largely unhurtable in any substantive capacity to even the likes of Umar, Dormammu, Strange, Hulk Surfer etc does not qualify as herald level durability? You want me to show you a list of people generally classified between low herald and high herald that DONT have durability feats that match tanking the heat and pressures of a neutron star? Heck even within your list alone neither Terrax nor Morg have feats on that level
facepalm facepalm. You really arent worthy of further response.
Originally posted by Naija boy
lol the strawmanning starts early I see. Im trying to show that the mindless ones at their upper end levels and thus based on their upper end feats alone (since those are the only ones that are relevant) have herald level [B]durability specifically, NOT that with the totality of their abilities nor the totality of their portrayals they are powerful enough to fall into the herald category.Hmm conversely if you are claiming that even with their highest end feat they arent herald level durable than thanks for once again validating my decision not to get into a prolonged wall of text back and forth with an obvious troll. I mean tanking the heat pressures and gravity of a neutron star and being largely unhurtable in any substantive capacity to even the likes of Umar, Dormammu, Strange, Hulk Surfer etc does not qualify as herald level durability? You want me to show you a list of people generally classified between low herald and high herald that DONT have durability feats that match tanking the heat and pressures of a neutron star? Heck even within your list alone neither Terrax nor Morg have feats on that level
facepalm facepalm. You really arent worthy of further response. [/B]
I would definitely like to see the feat where they tank the INSIDE heat and pressure of a neutron star. Was it posted already?
Edit: Nevermind I found it above.
Impressive.
Originally posted by Naija boy
You posted a bunch of oversize scans that didnt at all prove what u desire them to prove. How annoying.I have just finished an extensive battlezone on this issue with Newjack and do not at all desire to rehash it with an obvious troll so this will be my last post to you on the matter bienwahtever your name is.
Cool, you opened your post with a Genetics fallacy?, nice, that was my favorite tactic when I opened debate class in elementary school and I was "reppin" my side, Awesome!!!
I mean yes, the scans might have been a little bit bigger than usual and might hurt your fragile eyes, but that does not change the fact that it hurts the argument of mindless ones being Herald level. And on top of that you followed by an Ad hominem by calling me a troll? Oh and Thank You, your highness for taking time to respond to bienwhatever my name is.
Now, back on topic, We are discusing mindless ones "Herald" level, not the size of my scans, my poster name, your ideas of me being a troll or your last battlezone with Newjack.
Originally posted by Naija boy
Having dormammus and Doc stranges attacks prove ineffectual and draining him (dormammu),
What are You talking about? Doc Strange's fight with Dormammu is causing Dormammu's power to dwindle, so the barrier becomes less effective, Dormammu tries to place another barrier but since he is weakened because of his fight with Doc. Stranger, his barrier is not strong enough to stop them. Doc Stranger lends power to a weakened Dormammu and He puts another barrier that keeps them in place.
or You meant this?
or This?
Originally posted by Naija boy
downing Loki,
CONTEXT, You forgot to say Downing Loki, because he was caught by surprise and betrayed by Karnilla, Loki even says "What?" as a sign that he is caught by surprise.
Originally posted by Naija boy
overwhelming the Hulk,
Wow SEVERAL mindless ones vs Hulk, overwhelming him, let me see I have a scan of 1 Ben Grim holding better vs Hulk than SEVERAL mindless ones and He is not Herald level.
This? Yes "formidable" foes
Originally posted by Naija boy
overwhelming and being unharmed by the defenders
Unharmed? Where? They deal with several of them, they are just more in there, you know, that place is full of them!
This?
Originally posted by Naija boy
overwhelming and being unharmed by the nova corps, etc.
10 Mindless ones VS 4 or 5 Nova Corps wow, 2 or 3 of them rookies, and unharmed? Starstalker says otherwise, You know Starstalker physical stats? Yes Mindless ones are canon foder
Originally posted by Naija boy
This is in addition to the neutron star feat.
Wich is their highest feat and mentions being able to resist the gravity of it. You know the term space cheese?
Originally posted by Naija boy
They have also had their physical formidability and nigh invulnerability noted throughout their history.
This is cut and dry stuff and no amount of your baseless conjecture with a whimisical disregard for on panel evidence will change that.
What evidence? That ^ or this?
This?
Originally posted by Naija boy
Yeah you either read a diffeent issue or your unsurprising inability to understand basic on panel depictions is at work again. By defenders 1 and 2 are u referring to defenders vol 3 issue 1 and 2 in which strange accidentally teleports Hulk to the other side of the dark dimensional barrier and in which Dormammu (and through which the author) specifically notes that Hulk is getting his ass handed to him by the mindless ones?
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/Hulk%20feats/MindlessonestroucingHulk.jpg
and in which we dont actually see hulk actually destroy even a single one of them? Yeah not cannon fodder, since from the dialogue its is made known that they are beating the hulk not the other way round. Before entering into a debate go learn the actual meaning of the terms cuz its clear that either comprehension or english straight up is not your strong suit.
You forgot this:
Hulk stays a long time behind the barrier with out even paying attention to the "Herald" level mindless ones and He is FINE! Namor and Dr. Strange are even having a casual discussion with out even worrying about the Hulk, note the first scan How Strange uses his ominous tone the same way he does most of the time
Originally posted by Naija boy
Then,It was stated nowhere in the issue that it was the totality of the mindless ones.
I was not reffering to all the mindless ones that existed, but all the mindless ones on that scene, genious.
Originally posted by Naija boy
We have no idea the number of the force that happened to be passing through atlantis. So you can go feed your nonsensical lies to someone who hasnt read the comic. In addition to trying to present it as being the totality of the mindless ones, you brilliantly ( try to guess if im being sarcastic) post a scan from defenders v2 issue 1, in which the mindless ones appear for literally a page and all we are told is that Namors forces are beginning to drive them them back and away and around the city,which does not at all denigrate their durability as the mindless ones were merely passing through and simply attack anything that moves meaning they didnt have any desire to actually seize the city and we dont even see any of them actually destroyed or anything even close. Additionally even within that same issue u referenced we see Namor furious for being removed from the battle because of the great danger he knows the mindless ones pose to his homeland.
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/Hulk%20feats/Namormindlessones.jpgNone of that suggests cannon fodder and you clearly dont even know the meaning of the term.
Look, You can try to spin it in any way you want, But the Mindless ones all of them ON THAT SCENE (just to be clear, because apparently You thought I meant all of the Mindless ones that ever existed), where driven away by Namor, You think Namor will be able to drive away an army of Grims? even if they are passing thru there, with out paying attention to anything? If so, be my guest.
Originally posted by Naija boy
Yeah Hulk shows himself to be stronger than a bunch of them but the mindless ones durability and stamina has always been their most impressive attribute and this is what is important regarding the HOTM feat as well as their ability to overwhelm the likes of Dormammu, Umar, the defenders etc.. Heck even in the scan you showed which is from Dr strange sorcerer supreme #50 Hulk does NOT manage to damage or destroy any of them. Even in that same comic u once again wrongly referenced, we see Dr strange talk about the vast power posessed by the mindless ones,
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/Hulk%20feats/vcm_s_kf_repr_581x894.jpg
and in describing the futility of the attack of the defenders describes physical combat (i.e punches (as hulk was doing) blasts (as surfer was doing) as senseless and ineffective
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/Hulk%20feats/vcm_s_kf_repr_581x894.jpg
This further shows their high durability as in Dr strange reference to the futility of physical combat against them is corroborated by the fact that we only see them knocked around but not actually substantively harmed or destroyed within the comic.
And I am the one who need English lessons where does Strange says "innefective"? Are You making that up?
And this seems rather effective to me, Silver Surfer dispatched 11 of them with a single blast.is that innefective? Do you even know the meaning if the term?
Originally posted by Naija boy
Based on average depiction they are certainly more durable than Ben grimm as they have consistently been decribed as nigh invulnerable and displayed that in battles against the likes of Strange, defenders, Dormammu, nova crops etc. Further the level of consistency doesnt even matter here since we KNOW that they are at their upper levels.
Why are they at their upper levels in this comic? Oh yes because is HOTM arc, In here they are Herald level not canon foder. Got it.
Originally posted by Naija boy
You can hold on to the low durability showings all you want but even your own other scans dont support what you are saying and we know specifically that the author intended them to be formidable enough to overwhelm Umar as they have clasically done to her brother. "Cannon fodder" level durability does not get you to being the greatest enemies of a dimension headed by two skyfather level deities. The evidence is clear.
Yes, they are durable, not Herald level, but durable enough, overwhelm them as they have "clasically"?, I guess this is the reason why there is an eternal barrier created by them, because they overwhelm them, they do not even have enough power to create an eternal barrier, because their power overwhelms them. Yes evidence is very clear. I see how much Umar's power is being overwhelmed by the mindless one while she is making love to Hulk.
Originally posted by Naija boy
lmao at the contradiction. You cant in the same vein claim that they are ONLY formidable because of their numbers and then claim that "the more they are the less effective they become". That is laughably illogical and really epitomizes the horrendous line of reasoning you are using to come to your conclusions facepalm.
Let me guide you trhoug this one
The mindless ones are many and they are kind of durable, but in reality they are canon foder.
Originally posted by Naija boy
I dont recall Dr strange single handedly dealing with/destroying the entire multitude of mindless ones at the same time. The barrier that keeps the mindless ones at bay has been something that they put up in the first place because destroying them is so damn hard let alone destroying their enitre horde. Pak didnt chump Umar. Thats what u call it because as usual u dont like what was shown on panel. Good thing he didnt care for butthurt battleboarders. In HOTM Umar needed Hulk to push the mindless ones back to a certain level before being able to recreate the barrier.Hence it is apparent that that barrier and the personal shield Umar used in the comic are fundamentally different (and since this magic with different conditions necessary for different spells this makes perfect sense). Further neither the sheild nor the barrier have a mutually dependent relationship with Umars offensive power and thus your attempt to denigrate the durability of the mindless ones or wilfully ignore whats on panels falls flat.
You nitpicking for non-existent inconsistencies cannot change what is incontrovertible on panel reality.
What a nice false premise, Umar just wanted to create the barrier there, she and her borther can create barriers anywhere they want.
Oh looki here
Barriers ANYWHERE
Originally posted by Naija boy
lolwut? Nonsense. You are generically grouping together her "defences" when it is clear that the her shields used against Hulk and BEttys collision, and the barrier that keeps out the mindless ones are not the same and you cannot at all prove that they have the same operation dynamics since the comics suggest otherwise.
What a bunch on nonsense is this? Barriers/shields can be erected anywhere see scans prior to this post
Originally posted by Naija boy
Namor and his forces succeeded in merely redirecting the mindless ones not harming or destroying them. They have shrugged off the continued assault of Dormammu and even drained his power. They have been described as too powerful for Umar to survive, and even in some of your very own scans been unharmed by attacks of the Hulk, Silver Surfer, and described by Doctor strange as foes of vast power against whom physical combat is futile. Save the low showing you are holding onto none of your scans even support what you are claiming.
Originally posted by Naija boy
And yet Dormammus capabilities have been drained when facing them and that same Dr strange has had failed to make any headway against them and has emphasized their high physicality level. They do have a level of inconsistency like every character but in terms of durability they have certainly not been traditionally portrayed as cannon fodder. Their [B]tougheness/durability and numbers is what makes them powerful enemies of even skyfather level deities. [/B]
Hold on, let me breath because I just laughed so much with this remark... Ok lets keep going.
Originally posted by Naija boy
You are trying to denigrate that toughness aspect in order to downplay the HOTM feat (despite them being described in this manner repeatedly and having feats corroborating it) when the high level of they were at WAS SPECIFICALLY MENTIONED IN THE COMIC. This is silly and shows your level of recalcitrance.
The Argumentum ad verbosium is funny at the beginning but I get tired of it. You use the same language when talking to people you know or You just use this type of language here?
And is funny how You think in all the other comics where they get destroyed is low balling them, but in HOTM is not, You try to appeal to the authority so much.
Originally posted by Naija boy
It was not mentioned that Umar was weaker than before in the comic as that would contradict Paks entire authorial intention in HOTM. Furthermore we know that the mindless ones level of invulnerability/durability has fluctuated based on the writer, but the same DOES NOT go for Umar. Hence to think that Umar being unable to survive the mindless ones means that Pak out of the blue weakened Umar, a relatively consistent character, as opposed to it meaning that Pak wanted to show Hulks formidability by portraying the mindless ones at the high levels they have been portrayed at in the past is ludicrous
Ive read almost all of stranges history and Umar having restored the barrier in strange tales 150 really has little bearing on the occurrences in question (Heck she restored the barrier even in the HOTM arc itself).
And she could have done it again, Pak just needed canon foder to kill.
Originally posted by Naija boy
There is no double standard here. We can determine that it is high end mindless ones based off of the statements regarding Umar within the comic.
Sure... They are not canon fodder because this does not look very similar.
Originally posted by Naija boy
Additionally WBH did not have an established powerlevel (as Pak was still revealing the capabilities of the character) and thus his destroying of the mindless ones cannot be used to automatically infer that it was a low showing as that is assuming your conclusion and circular reasoning.Conversely, Ben Grimm spiderman etc do have established powerleves and them damaging the mindless ones can be inferred as a low showings based off of that. That incident further has no external reference solidifying the level the mindless ones were to be operating at (unlike the high level specification in HOTM) and so is not analogous to the HOTM arc in the slightest. Your "reasoning" is fallacious (circular reasoning fallacy) and thus completely off base.
Again with the Argumentum ad verbosium, Ok so I'm the one doing the circular reasoning? When You are the one saying "The mindless ones are herald durable because, Umar cannot stop them" When in fact Umar has stoped the Mindless ones before, Even Strange has been able to drive them away!
Originally posted by Naija boy
You completely missed the point of the analogy. Your question was whether i believed Hulk produces more energy than a neutron star due to the HOTM feat., and i explained why the question was wrongly structured using the analogy of firelord and surfer. Firelord may be able to create more intense heat than the sun but he does not output more energy than it. Moreover in the neutron star incident the mindless ones were actually put to mine inside of neutron stars so yes they would need to also be able to survive the heat of it as well as the gravitational pressures. Eiish.. That should not need to be explained. Heck im not even suggesting that their durability was at its utmost highest neutron star surviving levels just that it was clearly meant to be at its upper levels by Paks indications. .
Wait now Pak used Nova #30 as refference material for his book, did He indicate this? or is this another one of your assumptions?
Originally posted by Naija boy
Their durability has also never been described as being particular to some kind of attack (energy vs punches for instance) and so that factless conjecture will not get you anywhere. Differing performances against the different attack types are thus due to the differing strengths of the attacks and their varying portrayals under different writers rather than some weakness to any particular attack method.
I'm going to have so much fun
Originally posted by Naija boy
At their upper levels, the mindless ones have been portrayed as nigh invulnerable, tireless physical power houses and thus DO have "herald level durability" based off the feats they have accomplished as well as descriptions of their formidability.
Ok thats it, lets see This Herald durabilty and put it to the test.
Thor damages them
Stranger defeats several of them
Hulk damages and kills them (You should know what is going on in here, if not let me know and I help you out)
