I will have to address some guys individually specially the guy who always goes into insulting mode
But for now Carver, explain me something because I really don't get it
Let me see if I'm following you.
The mindless ones can survive a neutron star, this was a more recent depiction of them and even though Pak never stated that on his comic, it automatically passes the same level of durability to the HOTM arc.
According to You they are so powerful that not even Umar's magic can't defeat them, yet Hulk/Betty punching force kills them BUT Umar create's a shield powerful enough that protects her from the force that kills them?...... WHAT???
Another thing so according to You. The mindless ones are so powerful they survive a neutron star and they are nearly indestructible, but if Spiderman, Thor, Human torch or Ben Grimm hurt them, then is low showing because they can survive a neutron star, but if Hulk kills them, then is not low showing because, well, they can survive a neutron star and Hulk melts heralds and apparently Hulk/Betty can create more force than a Neutron star, Umar can't create that amount of force, but she can create a force big enough to protect her from the force destroying the mindless ones?
I wonder if the neutron star is a high end feat for them but the showings from Strange Tales, Spiderman and HOTM is a low ball for them.
I really don't get it, please explain this to me and I'm being honest, I'm curious to see what is the logic behind all this.
And if You really think Hulk and Betty create more energy that a Neutron Star, just say it in the open.
Originally posted by Naija boy
An attack that annihilates an army of high end mindless ones, (which regardless of you saying we should take them at high end levels, the comic actually indicates are operating at their high end levels) would kill and at the very least ko characters whose even absolute highest end durability feat are inferior to those of the mindless ones i.e ( gladiator, Terrax, even Morg quite frankly). This is without even considering the fact that it also annihlated Wendigo, Armcheddon, Bi beast and an enormously amped Fing Fang Foom (amped to world conquering levels).
I'll guess I will have to ask you the same thing as Carver and explain your logic behind it.
Originally posted by biensalsa
I will have to address some guys individually specially the guy who always goes into insulting modeBut for now Carver, explain me something because I really don't get it
Let me see if I'm following you.
The mindless ones can survive a neutron star, this was a more recent depiction of them and even though Pak never stated that on his comic, it automatically passes the same level of durability to the HOTM arc.
According to You they are so powerful that not even Umar's magic can't defeat them, yet Hulk/Betty punching force kills them BUT Umar create's a shield powerful enough that protects her from the force that kills them?...... WHAT???
Another thing so according to You. The mindless ones are so powerful they survive a neutron star and they are nearly indestructible, but if Spiderman, Thor, Human torch or Ben Grimm hurt them, then is low showing because they can survive a neutron star, but if Hulk kills them, then is not low showing because, well, they can survive a neutron star and Hulk melts heralds and apparently Hulk/Betty can create more force than a Neutron star, Umar can't create that amount of force, but she can create a force big enough to protect her from the force destroying the mindless ones?
I wonder if the neutron star is a high end feat for them but the showings from Strange Tales, Spiderman and HOTM is a low ball for them.
I really don't get it, please explain this to me and I'm being honest, I'm curious to see what is the logic behind all this.
And if You really think Hulk and Betty create more energy that a Neutron Star, just say it in the open.
Originally posted by Batman-Primei don't believe this could, or would happen if those characters were swapped. if anything they'd get a reality check as or after the blast occurs. everyone present is getting rocked by a surprise super shockwave
All survive, GL can contain the explosion, Surfer or Thor could absorb it. Shared feat with amped beings wasn't as impressive as some other things those guys have experianced.
Originally posted by biensalsa
I will have to address some guys individually specially the guy who always goes into insulting modeBut for now Carver, explain me something because I really don't get it
Let me see if I'm following you.
The mindless ones can survive a neutron star, this was a more recent depiction of them and even though Pak never stated that on his comic, it automatically passes the same level of durability to the HOTM arc.
According to You they are so powerful that not even Umar's magic can't defeat them, yet Hulk/Betty punching force kills them BUT Umar create's a shield powerful enough that protects her from the force that kills them?...... WHAT???
Another thing so according to You. The mindless ones are so powerful they survive a neutron star and they are nearly indestructible, but if Spiderman, Thor, Human torch or Ben Grimm hurt them, then is low showing because they can survive a neutron star, but if Hulk kills them, then is not low showing because, well, they can survive a neutron star and Hulk melts heralds and apparently Hulk/Betty can create more force than a Neutron star, Umar can't create that amount of force, but she can create a force big enough to protect her from the force destroying the mindless ones?
I wonder if the neutron star is a high end feat for them but the showings from Strange Tales, Spiderman and HOTM is a low ball for them.
I really don't get it, please explain this to me and I'm being honest, I'm curious to see what is the logic behind all this.
And if You really think Hulk and Betty create more energy that a Neutron Star, just say it in the open.
The mindless ones surviving and working in a neutron star is definitely an upper end feat for them. However it isnt their only upper end feat and they have a plethora of other feats Overwhelming and shrugging off attacks from the defenders (Hulk, strange, Silver Surfer) nova corps,Hulk again, Umar, draining Dormammu, Loki etc. They have always been traditionally described as nigh invulnerable and physically very formidable. They do have some appearances in which they appear weaker but the fact that it was mentioned not by me but by the author in the comic that Umar could not survive them at that point is the author clearly telling us how physically formidable they are. This is in line with their recent portrayal as well as the majority of their portrayals over the years.
You are trying to manufacture a logical inconsistency so that you can ignore what was clearly portrayed on panel since it is not to your liking but no such inconsistency exists. Umar not being able to survive them tells us about the potency of their physical assault[i]. That assault is different in nature from the Hulk and bettys collision in that it is prolonged and thus we have no idea how long it would take them to take Umar out but we know at the end of the day that she wouldnt survive. Hence her surviving Hulk and Bettys clash does not at all contradict her being unable to survive the prolonged assault of the mindlessones. Additionally Umar being unable to survive them indicates she lacked the offensive output to destroy the ENTIRE army of Mindless ones BEFORE going down herself. This is itself is unrelated to her having the [I]defensive capabilities to survive a single attack that could destroy all the mindless ones.
Umar being able to create a powerful enough shield to protect her from t an attack that killed the mindless ones has no bearings on her lacking the offensive output to put down the mindless ones before she is put down herself. The only conclusion that can be logically drawn from this is that the prolonged attack of the army of mindless ones eventually exceeds the damage output of Hulk and Betty and can put Umar down.
Your whole line of reasoning about Umar being able to "create a force big enough to protect her from an attack that destroys the mindless ones" but not being able to "create a force big enough to destroy the mindless ones" is nonsensical because aside the fact that your characterization of the offensive and defensive capabilities of Umar by the size is innaccurate, their is no direct relationship between the strength of shield a person is capable of creating, and the offensive output the person has. Having the former (offensive output) at a certain level does not necessitate or even imply having the latter (defensive shielding) at a corresponding or similar level. They are both independent of each other and this applies even more so with a magical character who has different sheild spells that they can use that are absolutely unconnected to their offensive output
The Ben Grimm and spiderman feat is definitely a low feat and inapplicable because we know for a fact that the mindless ones were operating at a high level in this case. Whether that is at Neutron star tanking levels or not is really an aside as being at levels where they can overwhelm Umar herself tells us more than enough.
Furthermore, i dont believe Hulk and Betty created more energy than a Neutron star. It is a faulty comparison in the first place since even granting that the mindless ones were at there neutron star mining levels, Hulk and Betty wouldnt need to have generated more than the total energy produced by a neutron star in order to harm them, the same way that Firelord does not need to have produced more than the total energy of the sun in order to harm Silver surfer (who has flown through stars unscathed)
As said before, the events of the arc are straightforward and apparent to anyone looking at it without any biased predispositions.
Originally posted by Naija boy
The mindless ones surviving and working in a neutron star is definitely an upper end feat for them. However it isnt their only upper end feat and they have a plethora of other feats
Plethora of other feats??? Besides being described as capable of withstanding the GRAVITATIONAL forces of a Neutron star, there is almost next to nothing on that level.
Originally posted by Naija boy
Overwhelming and shrugging off attacks from the defenders (Hulk, strange, Silver Surfer) nova corps,Hulk again, Umar, draining Dormammu, Loki etc. They have always been traditionally described as nigh invulnerable and physically very formidable.
We must have read different issues because:
In Defenders 1 & 2 they are treated as CANON FODER (Hulk is trapped BEHIND the shield and not even paying attention to them, The mindless ones always attack everything that looks different to them and Hulk is not even paying attention to them, Hulk even last for a while without even defending himself from their attack)
In Defenders #1, 2001 CANON FODER AGAIN (NAMOR and the Atlanteans underwater pushes the Mindless ones back, ALL OF THEM)
In Amazing Spider-Man #57-58 & 59 they are CANON FORDER AGAIN (Spiderman, Thor, The Thing, Torch, Cyclops all of them got a shot at them)
Dr. Stranger comic books? MOSTLY CANON FODER AGAIN (There is even a point, in which Dr. Stranger ALONE destroys several of them AND Hulk manhandles like a dozen of them)
So, while they been stated to be formidable oponents is mainly because of their sheir numbers, that ususally overwhelm the enemy, not because they are HERALD level. But because their sheer numbers, like a Chinese army.
Based on a AVERAGE depiction they are in the metahuman tier ranging from low to high and being formidable because of their sheer numbers.
Imagine a neverending army of Ben Grimm's that is always spawning.
And their highest showing on durability comes OUTSIDE the Dark Dimension. The Dark Dimension that it has been stated that matter is more fragile INSIDE the Dark Dimension.
While MANY of their showings of durability OUTSIDE the Dark Dimension have been at best high meta durability and that is being overly generous as they are moslty portrayed as CANON FODER and this was no exeption.
Originally posted by Naija boy
They do have some appearances in which they appear weaker but the fact that it was mentioned not by me but by the author in the comic that Umar could not survive them at that point is the author clearly telling us how physically formidable they are. This is in line with their recent portrayal as well as the majority of their portrayals over the years.
I'm sure You know they are "formidable" because like I said, is like a never ending army of Ben Grims that suffers from the ninja effect. The more they are the less effective they become.
Originally posted by Naija boy
You are trying to manufacture a logical inconsistency so that you can ignore what was clearly portrayed on panel since it is not to your liking but no such inconsistency exists. Umar not being able to survive them tells us about the potency of their physical assault[i]. [B]That assault is different in nature from the Hulk and bettys collision in that it is prolonged and thus we have no idea how long it would take them to take Umar out but we know at the end of the day that she wouldnt survive. Hence her surviving Hulk and Bettys clash does not at all contradict her being unable to survive the prolonged assault of the mindlessones. Additionally Umar being unable to survive them indicates she lacked the offensive output to destroy the ENTIRE army of Mindless ones BEFORE going down herself. This is itself is unrelated to her having the [I]defensive capabilities to survive a single attack that could destroy all the mindless ones. [/B]
Correct me if I'm wrong but hasn't Dr Stranger dealt with them alone? Hans't He being able to destroy several of them? Didn't He at one point while being the Sorcerer Supreme had enough DEFENSIVE power to muster a shield and push them back? For whatever reason Pak decided to Chump Umar as to say She can't defeat them, he forgot that Umar has enough defensive capabilities to create another shield and push them back, same shield that portected her from the collading force of Hulk and Betty.
Originally posted by Naija boy
Umar being able to create a powerful enough shield to protect her from t an attack that killed the mindless ones has no bearings on her lacking the offensive output to put down the mindless ones before she is put down herself. The only conclusion that can be logically drawn from this is that the prolonged attack of the army of mindless ones eventually exceeds the damage output of Hulk and Betty and can put Umar down.
Yes it does, her defences are powerful anough to tank Hulk's attack meaning the same defensive power can push the mindless ones back. As a matter of fact, destroying and pushing back mindless ones back is not a feat only acomplished by HOTM Hulk is a feat that Ben Grim, Hulk, Namor, Thor, Dr. Stranger, Umar, Dormamuu, Spiderman and Torch have in common.
Why does people make such a big deal about destroying them is what amazes me. They are not herald level, not by far.
Originally posted by Naija boy
Your whole line of reasoning about Umar being able to "create a force big enough to protect her from an attack that destroys the mindless ones" but not being able to "create a force big enough to destroy the mindless ones" is nonsensical because aside the fact that your characterization of the offensive and defensive capabilities of Umar by the size is innaccurate, their is no direct relationship between the strength of shield a person is capable of creating, and the offensive output the person has. Having the former (offensive output) at a certain level does not necessitate or even imply having the latter (defensive shielding) at a corresponding or similar level. They are both independent of each other and this applies even more so with a magical character who has different sheild spells that they can use that are absolutely unconnected to their offensive output
Again Dr. Stranger's defensive capabilities have been enough to push them back out side the Dark Dimension and his Offensive capabilities have been enough to destroy several of them, while using a defensive shiled vs an army of endless enemies is the most effective way to keep them at bay, destroying them is not imposible, but it will implicate dealing with countless numbers of them at some point attrition will affect the attacker, so dealing with them in a generic matter is the most effective way. I/e creating a shield to push them back, why the writer forgot about this, is beyond my comprehension. Umar has actually restored the same barrier that was destroyed in HOTM and pushed the mindless ones by herself in Strange Tales #150, So Dr. Stranger remarks is contradictory to what We have seen in canon comics, but of course I do not expect everybody to know this facts when Dr. Stranger comics are not as popular as the Hulk. And of course I will wait for the asumption that the mindless ones were more powerful than before, but not the idea of Umar being weaker than before which IIRC it was said in HOTM.
Originally posted by Naija boy
The Ben Grimm and spiderman feat is definitely a low feat and inapplicable because we know for a fact that the mindless ones were operating at a high level in this case. Whether that is at Neutron star tanking levels or not is really an aside as being at levels where they can overwhelm Umar herself tells us more than enough.
It seems as a double starndard to say this instance is a high end Mindless ones, and Ben Grim's is a low feat, when in truth Ben's and HOTM is the average showing for them. Of course like I said, I don't expect everybody to know this, because Dr. Starnger collections are rare, very rare between comic book readers.
Originally posted by Naija boy
Furthermore, i dont believe Hulk and Betty created more energy than a Neutron star. It is a faulty comparison in the first place since even granting that the mindless ones were at there neutron star mining levels, Hulk and Betty wouldnt need to have generated more than the total energy produced by a neutron star in order to harm them, the same way that Firelord does not need to have produced more than the total energy of the sun in order to harm Silver surfer (who has flown through stars unscathed)As said before, the events of the arc are straightforward and apparent to anyone looking at it without any biased predispositions.
As a matter of fact it has been said that Firelord can muster more heat than a sun, and both are CP wielders so him hurting the Surfer will fall into credible, but this is not about the SS and Firelord anyway, this Neutron star instance reffered to the mindless ones as being capable to survive the crushing gravity of the Neutron Star, not the actual heat of it, they do not have the best record vs energy attacks, explosions or fire at least not to be called HERALD level.
When one actually have access to all the Dr. Strager issues and most appearances of the Mindless ones, one is capable to reason and see that the mindless ones are by far not Herald level, they are durable, but not Herald level durable.
So making this wrong asumption that Mindless ones are equal to heralds in durability is just silly, trying to rise their stock is funny since...well... they are pretty much canon foder and this time it was no exeption.
I might have to add, there is at least two times in which the fragility of matter inside the dark dimension has been reffered, once was by Dr. Stranger who said the laws of reality do not apply in the dark dimension, the other one and probably the most important one that Hulk fans are not even remotely aware of, is the time in which Silver Surfer a very knowledble character when it comes to matter, described the matter inside the dark dimension as being weaker than regular matter outside of it.
Why do Hulk fans tend to overblown things that are actually not true, is beyond my comprehension.
Again and since I have said from the begining neither Heralds and planets inside the dark dimension. Evidence is plenty.
I still believe Hulk can bust a planet even though the one he busted was weaker than a normal planet, but from there to claim canon foder is herald level is well as I said before, kind of silly.
Originally posted by psycho gundam
yeah, he purposefully made "battle board" hulk as if he was a member of this site.....😖hifty:
I don't quite get this ^
But overall in your post, You seem to agree that things tend to be overblown with the whole "Melting heralds" thing.
As for Arm'cheddon, I do not think Troians durability have the best showings in the comic book world. They are few, very few and low.
His cosmic energy manipulation on the other hand is very good even though is very limited to few showings
Originally posted by biensalsapak seemingly used "battle board" laws in his comic as if he was a poster on one of these sites.
I don't quite get this ^
Originally posted by biensalsathe "melting heralds" thing: hulk was tearing through a lot of big names in comics, and then you hear he was holding back, holding back so much that pretty much his most iconic villains he had trouble with (sometimes) in the majority of his career were ignored and annihilated by the initial blow when he fought someone in his weight class...and the planet they were on. that's something regardless of whatever character we're talking about (supes, spawn, etc)
But overall in your post, You seem to agree that things tend to be overblown with the whole "Melting heralds" thing.As for Arm'cheddon, I do not think Troians durability have the best showings in the comic book world. They are few, very few and low.
His cosmic energy manipulation on the other hand is very good even though is very limited to few showings
now, are they heralds? well there isn't a consensus but they can all be comfortably placed at high-meta at average (low feats and high) without hurting anyone's feeling too bad, of coarse arm'cheddon is probably a legit low-herald minimum just for the fact he took a beating of that magnitude. his offspring fought prof. hulk evenly and arm'cheddon fought hulk at a very high level (again, right after wendigo and bi-beast were amped a thousandfold and basically ignored) and he fought the surfer and the same prof. hulk, damaging the former at his own game. name classification and limited showings aside, he's tough.
the mindless ones are just as you said "ninjas", but i guess you can go by what pak was trying to illustrate in the story as there are consistences with the scans you put up with umar and what pak tried to tie into that continuity in HOTM. he wanted to show off hulk's power so having them be the weakest versions is a little suspect. not saying they were their strongest ever but there is a precedent and you even posted it in this thread. either way, they are no more and it was from the collateral damage of one single impact. hulk was fighting them before he annihilated their race and they seemed to be just as much as an annoyance to him as a lot of characters he fought, however that could be his power making it so just as much as their weakness being "ninjas". *shrug*
anyway, doesn't matter to me cause hulk wasted them all equally when he stopped limiting himself
Originally posted by psycho gundam
pak seemingly used "battle board" laws in his comic as if he was a poster on one of these sites.the "melting heralds" thing: hulk was tearing through a lot of big names in comics, and then you hear he was holding back, holding back so much that pretty much his most iconic villains he had trouble with (sometimes) in the majority of his career were ignored and annihilated by the initial blow when he fought someone in his weight class...and the planet they were on. that's something regardless of whatever character we're talking about (supes, spawn, etc)
now, are they heralds? well there isn't a consensus but they can all be comfortably placed at high-meta at average (low feats and high) without hurting anyone's feeling too bad, of coarse arm'cheddon is probably a legit low-herald minimum just for the fact he took a beating of that magnitude. his offspring fought prof. hulk evenly and arm'cheddon fought hulk at a very high level (again, right after wendigo and bi-beast were amped a thousandfold and basically ignored) and he fought the surfer and the same prof. hulk, damaging the former at his own game. name classification and limited showings aside, he's tough.
the mindless ones are just as you said "ninjas", but i guess you can go by what pak was trying to illustrate in the story as there are consistences with the scans you put up with umar and what pak tried to tie into that continuity in HOTM. he wanted to show off hulk's power so having them be the weakest versions is a little suspect. not saying they were their strongest ever but there is a precedent and you even posted it in this thread. either way, they are no more and it was from the collateral damage of one single impact. hulk was fighting them before he annihilated their race and they seemed to be just as much as an annoyance to him as a lot of characters he fought, however that could be his power making it so just as much as their weakness being "ninjas". *shrug*
anyway, doesn't matter to me cause hulk wasted them all equally when he stopped limiting himself
Thank You very much for your response 🙂