ROTS Yoda vs. Darth Bane

Originally posted by Pwned
Oh no, I ment the Force Push for redirecting himself in mid air. I saw that he switched directions while fighting a couple times fighting Dooku. Maybe it was just my eyes, but I saw him do it.

He jumped off the walls. I'm pretty sure you can't use Force pushes like you're suggesting unless you actually do use Force Flight. Something which I don't believe Yoda has ever done.

Originally posted by Pwned
Yoda jumps pretty fast, and he falls to the ground pretty fast to. The Force makes him faster.

The Force makes him fall faster? Bullshit.

Originally posted by Pwned
No, because hitting thigns in the air provides less resistance than the ground. You don't hit as hard when hitting things in the air.

Will that matter? As I said, Yoda will go flying because of that 'less resistance' you mention.

Originally posted by Pwned
Raskta used Jar'Kai. Yoda uses a modified Ataru. And has experience leaking out of his ears.

His ears that are barely a foot from the ground. You miss my point. Yoda can't constantly attack Bane and keep pressure on him. It takes time for him to jump and attack his head, all the while being easy to defend against because when he jumps he telegraphs his attack and gives Bane time to get his saber up.

Originally posted by Pwned
Why would Yoda block any attacks from anyone??? He is to small to do so. For the msot part, I see him parry unless he can actually HOLD the block (like fighting Sidious in the Senate chamber)

Parry = Block.

Originally posted by Pwned
Woah woah woah, I missed the ones with that speed establishment. If you can give me a link, then I'll read it. If thats the case I can see Bane winning.

It was way back a few years ago when we were still debating Bane vs Sidious. As such I really am not going to look for it. All you need to know is what I told you. Judging the two scenes together they are similar enough to be comparable in terms of speed.

Originally posted by Pwned
Because as it is, its Yoda's speed and maneuverability that gives him the win. Bane isn't fast enough to block the multiple strikes from strange angles (which matter more than you would think) that are ALL aimed at his vulnerable zone. He would know one mistake and he dies.

Yes he is. I've provided a quote that proves that he is right above you. I'll post it again:

'She seemed to be everywhere at once-in front of Bane, beside him, behind him, circling low, leaping to come in high, deflecting his blade with one of her own then stabbing three quick times in succession at his eyes. The big man's head ducked and bobbed, twisting and turning to avoid her blows as he tried to mount a counteroffensive.

Raskta's mastery of her blades was unparalleled, but even with her talents augmented by Worror's battle meditation she wasn't able to land a telling blow on such a small target through Bane's defenses. Still, the ferocity of her new strategy had turned the momentum in her favor ... or so Farfalla thought.'

How exactly does that not show that Bane is fast enough to deal with multiple strikes from strange angles that are ALL aimed at his vulnerable zone? 😐

I never said you needed to live 800 hundred years to become a master of TK, that is not my point. My point is, he has had 800 hundred years to train. Not only has he mastered it, he knows how to use it more effectively than arguably any Jedi before him.

Bullshit.

Originally posted by Pwned
Oh no, Jedi can achieve Force mastery, and are arguably far stronger than the Sith. It just takes them a lifetime (Human lifetime, it seems) while Yoda is not only very powerful in the Force, he has had WAY longer than anything else in the Galaxy (probably) to perfect his Force usage (I am talking about things that can actually die of age, not stupid ageless crap) I would honestly say he is stronger than Bane in the Force, more attuned, and has a better mastery over it.

Tell that to Sidious.

Yoda is one of the most powerful Jedi as far as ROTS in the timeline, considered on par with ROTS Sidious ... In terms of both, Force mastery and lightsaber skill. ROTS Sidious is more powerful than RoT Bane in both terms. Yoda is his equal. He is more than capable efficiently attacking Bane on his armour's weak spots. Remember, this is RoT Bane, not DoE. His most impressive feats come in DoE. I don't even have to read it to know that.

You're failing to apply logic towards the situation and are just telling me that Yoda will win. You've never told me how he would do it. As I've shown logically, he can't.

I have told you how, you just don't think he is capable of doing so, whereas I believe he is.

Edit - and it is logical to assume that the Jedi that is ROTS Sidious' equal, can manage to land at the very least one blow on one of Bane's weak spots.

If you believe so. I doubt I could change your mind if I havn't convinced you already.

But I do want to point out that according to Yoda 'a Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, NEVER for attack.' So I highly doubt that Yoda can effectively use his TK in a fight or that he learnt how to with that philosophy. At least to the degree that you say, that he's the most effective TK user in history, lol. Thats just laughable.

Never said that. Read my post again.

Edit - Seriously, who do you think I am? Some newb? I would never say he's the most effective TK user in history, mate.

Fine, that he's better than any Jedi before him. I still don't believe that.

I said 'arguably'. Never said he is stated to be it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Sorry, I forgot that you're new. 😉

In the RotS novel Sidious is constantly referred to as 'the Shadow'. I made a joke about that.

Sounds badass.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Why? I don't think the extent of their enhancements on Sadow are ever made apparant.

As I said, Sadow was wearing his amulet when he hurled the brick anyway, so you can't use that as a comparison for how he is without the amulet. Furthermore, he did so during a duel while engaged at swordpoint. Its only reasonable that he wasn't able to perform outstanding telekinetic feats in that position. And to say that one low feat makes him weak is fallacious also. A ridiculous attempt at low-balling.

Plus iirc after that fight either he or his opponent blast apart a 200 ton statue.

One cannot rationally ascribe powers to an individual that occur when their abilities are being enhanced by a nexus or Force-boosting item (from amulets to starships); it doesn't matter who the character in question is: one of the ancient Sith, Nihilus, Palpatine, Vitiate, or any other.

Originally posted by Pwned
Oh no, Jedi can achieve Force mastery, and are arguably far stronger than the Sith. It just takes them a lifetime (Human lifetime, it seems) while Yoda is not only very powerful in the Force, he has had WAY longer than anything else in the Galaxy (probably) to perfect his Force usage (I am talking about things that can actually die of age, not stupid ageless crap) I would honestly say he is stronger than Bane in the Force, more attuned, and has a better mastery over it.

Originally posted by Major Valerian
Yoda is one of the most powerful Jedi as far as ROTS in the timeline, considered on par with ROTS Sidious ... In terms of both, Force mastery and lightsaber skill. ROTS Sidious is more powerful than RoT Bane both terms. Yoda is his equal. He is more than capable efficiently attacking Bane on his armour's weak spots. Remember, this is RoT Bane, not DoE. His most impressive feats come in DoE. I don't even have to read it to know that.

Originally posted by crisis_ryitua
One cannot rationally ascribe powers to an individual that occur when their abilities are being enhanced by a nexus or Force-boosting item (from amulets to starships); it doesn't matter who the character in question is: one of the ancient Sith, Nihilus, Palpatine, Vitiate, or any other.

I don't see why not. It's never bothered us with Exar Kun. Sadow always has his amulet on him, so just don't disconnect him from it when discussing or judging him.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He jumped off the walls. I'm pretty sure you can't use Force pushes like you're suggesting unless you actually do use Force Flight. Something which I don't believe Yoda has ever done.

The Force makes him fall faster? Bullshit.

Will that matter? As I said, Yoda will go flying because of that 'less resistance' you mention.

His ears that are barely a foot from the ground. You miss my point. Yoda can't constantly attack Bane and keep pressure on him. It takes [b]time for him to jump and attack his head, all the while being easy to defend against because when he jumps he telegraphs his attack and gives Bane time to get his saber up.

Parry = Block.

It was way back a few years ago when we were still debating Bane vs Sidious. As such I really am not going to look for it. All you need to know is what I told you. Judging the two scenes together they are similar enough to be comparable in terms of speed.

Yes he is. I've provided a quote that proves that he is right above you. I'll post it again:

'She seemed to be everywhere at once-in front of Bane, beside him, behind him, circling low, leaping to come in high, deflecting his blade with one of her own then stabbing three quick times in succession at his eyes. The big man's head ducked and bobbed, twisting and turning to avoid her blows as he tried to mount a counteroffensive.

Raskta's mastery of her blades was unparalleled, but even with her talents augmented by Worror's battle meditation she wasn't able to land a telling blow on such a small target through Bane's defenses. Still, the ferocity of her new strategy had turned the momentum in her favor ... or so Farfalla thought.'

How exactly does that not show that Bane is fast enough to deal with multiple strikes from strange angles that are ALL aimed at his vulnerable zone? 😐 [/B]

Force enhanced movement speed? Momentum/velocity means he falls faster than you would think.

Parry- To turn aside a strike.
Block- To oppose a strike with your weapon, and stop its movement.
Not the same thing. Talk to ANYBODY who has even read a book involving a swordfight.

I will look for it, but if I can't find it I will have to call BS on it. Bane never moved that fast prior to DoE if I remember correctly.

To land and jump takes him less than a second. Look at the Sidious fight. He jumps, attacks, lands, jumps again. 1.5 seconds to do all that.

There is a difference between one person with two lightsabers flailing at you from 3 feet away and a little green troll less than a foot from your face swinging at you. As I said earlier, once Yoda closes in, Bane will have a disadvantage, because he has to be mroe careful to avoid hitting himself and Yoda is really close.

Originally posted by Arhael

RotS Sidious is not in his best form. And Yoda was able to fight him only by using Force more wisely and mostly defensively. Like, when Sidious was throwing platforms, Yoda preferred to dodge all of them and, when Sidious finally got tired, he caught and threw last one.

I never said ROTS Sidious was Sidious at his peak... Still, ROTS Sidious is one of the most powerful Sith Lords, anyway. And I believe Yoda is actually stated to be his equal.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't see why not. It's never bothered us with Exar Kun. Sadow always has his amulet on him, so just don't disconnect him from it when discussing or judging him.

In what context? When the discussion is completely centered on who would win in a fight, then the amulets and various trinkets are largely ignored and assumed to be part of a character's standard equipment (much like a lightsaber) because in many situations we have no non-accessory appearance by which to compare them.

But when the discussion evolves into "who's stronger?" or "who's more powerful in the Force" or "who's more skilled?" as it so often does, that's when such items logically factor in. If Character X always uses a Force-boosting [cock ring?] in his fights, then it cannot be rationally said that he is more [powerful/skilled/accomplished] in the ways of [the Force/combat] when compared to another character who doesn't use such items, unless narration indicates otherwise.

My take on the fight is RoT Bane beats Yoda after a hard fought battle.

DoE Bane loses more often than not.

Originally posted by Nephthys
If you believe so. I doubt I could change your mind if I havn't convinced you already.

But I do want to point out that according to Yoda 'a Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, NEVER for attack.' So I highly doubt that Yoda can effectively use his TK in a fight or that he learnt how to with that philosophy. At least to the degree that you say, that he's the most effective TK user in history, lol. Thats just laughable.

Yoda's attempted regicide indicates otherwise. Of course, Stover's brilliance enables us to justify his remark to Luke quite well.

Originally posted by Major Valerian
I never said ROTS Sidious was Sidious at his peak... Still, ROTS Sidious is one of the most powerful Sith Lords, anyway. And I believe Yoda is actually stated to be his equal.

Originally posted by Pwned
It works off the laws of momentum. Nudging himself with TK to redirect his momentum will cause him to move in a different direction. I will go rewatch the scene (for the second time) and check.

Sure, if the Force was just a third arm or something actually attached to Yoda's body. But it isn't. Its an energy field that surround his entire body.

Originally posted by Pwned
Force enhanced movement speed? Momentum/velocity means he falls faster than you would think.

I don't think that means what you think it means. I've never seen anything that suggests the Force allows a Jedi to fall faster. It can empower a Jedi's limbs and perceptions and make them fight faster, but it doesn't, like, pull them forward or something.

Originally posted by Pwned
Parry- To turn aside a strike.
Block- To oppose a strike with your weapon, and stop its movement.
Not the same thing. Talk to ANYBODY who has even read a book involving a swordfight.

I'm unsure of the significance of this point. How is this relevent?

Originally posted by Pwned
I will look for it, but if I can't find it I will have to call BS on it. Bane never moved that fast prior to DoE if I remember correctly.

Or you could just ask me to post the scene in question.

'Raska's blue blades flickered too quickly for the eye to see, neutralizing her enemy's initial, wild attack then landing half a dozen lethal blows to his chest and abdomen. But instead of toppling, the big man kept coming, never even breaking stride. He would have plowed straight into Raskta, trampling her under his heavy boots, had she not cartwheeled to the side at the last possible instant.

Bane never stopped, his momentum carrying him straight toward Farfalla. The Jedi Master had a moment to register the strange armor coat of hard, shiny shells he wore beneath his clothes. Then he, too, leapt to the side to avoid being crushed, surviving only because his reflexes were heightened by Worror's power.'

Both of them only got out of the way because at the last second, indicating that were it not for their Battle Meditation (something thats pointe dout in the text) they would have been trampled.

Originally posted by Pwned
To land and jump takes him less than a second. Look at the Sidious fight. He jumps, attacks, lands, jumps again. 1.5 seconds to do all that.

1.5 seconds against an opponant who can move 'so fast it seemed as if he wielded a dozen blades at the same time' (that quote is from RoT btw) is quite a long time. We're dealling with superspeed here.

Originally posted by Pwned
There is a difference between one person with two lightsabers flailing at you from 3 feet away and a little green troll less than a foot from your face swinging at you. As I said earlier, once Yoda closes in, Bane will have a disadvantage, because he has to be mroe careful to avoid hitting himself and Yoda is really close.

Yoda won't get 'really close'. Bane is 7 feet tall, he has plenty of time to block Yoda before Yoda gets too close and if he does get that close then Bane can just swat him out of the air.