Darth Nihilus and Darth Traya - vs - DE Sidious and DE Luke

Originally posted by Pwned
Alright then, I will explain it.

Nihilus was human. Now he is a dark force apparition bound to the physical armor.

Language when it comes to the Force is not a limitation. Neither is a physical brain. In this case, Palpatine would subdue Nihilus' will, using subtle machinations and Dun Moch. DE Sidious has been stated to be the most powerful Sith Lord to exist. (somebody else will have to get the source, I can't remember EXACTLY where it came from, and I am procrastinating from school work for this) While yes, its touted about, DE Sidious is easily more powerful. Giga-drain or no, Nihilus is PROBABLYthe weakest one here in terms of mastery and such. Luke comes next, but he makes up for it by being the strongest with the Force, because he is Luke (and his POWER in the Force never changed Just his mastery.) Traya is behind Sidious. However, we do not know much about her, and therefore Nihilus may well be ahead of her. However, he is an instinctual thing, driven by hunger to consume as much Force essence as he can. He is currently faced by (arguably) the 2 most powerful mortals to ever live (I do not count Abeloth as mortal, but something else) and frankly, eventually he will want to eat. I do not see that going well.

He cannot be bent anymore,because he's bent by his hunger.

Originally posted by Pwned
I don't know about that. I mean, this is the guy who spoke to the Jedi High Council, Yoda, Mace Windu, and all of them, and hundreds of other Jedi, and yet not a single one sensed the darkness in his Force presence. I could see him dominating Nihilus, overcoming even the hunger that consumes him.

Plus, Nihilus would get fat. That would be quite humorous.....

Palpatine hid himself from Yoda and the Jedi council on multiple occasions. Yoda could regularly pierce through the mental defenses of council members and read their emotions. It required a lot more effort than simply masking his presence.

Sidious even performed galaxy spanning rituals to further weaken the Jedi by clouding their foresight and further corrupt Anakin Skywalker by making him more aggressive.

Any Force user strong in Force can hide his affinity with The Force,and Dooku did that too. But Obi,Ani and Yoda,Windu,the other Jedi knew Dooku,therefore he knew he has Force powers.

Originally posted by crisis_ryitua
Why doesn't it collapse upon his death?

This is contextually unimpressive as EU!Sidious has mentally enthralled millions on Coruscant, billions on Byss, and the "tens of trillions" of Imperial fleet personnel.

Nihilus's highest telekinetic showing comes from being empowered on a dark side nexus {Malachor V}. His manipulation of The Ravager has not, to my knowledge, been conclusively proven. His highest canonical showing of telekinesis was putting Kreia on her ass when he overthrew her with Sion's aid.

The reason the vessel wasn't tearing apart was because Nihilus wasn't dead as you assumed to be.

"Nihilus' body then erupted in an aura of dark side energies as the trio left the bridge. Shortly thereafter, the bombs aboard the Ravager exploded and the rest of the Sith fleet was decimated by the Republic. Nihilus' spirit was able to survive inside his armor, not destroyed within the Ravager, which was taken for burial on Korriban, the Sith homeworld. Nihilus' spirit touched the planet's dark side nexus and remained in touch with the corporeal plane because of it." -taken from Wookieepedia

And really you compare Sidious who had time to grow his powers after he siphoned the energies from Byss(and did it so slowly and none bothered to interrupt his plans,because he acted in secrecy) with Nihilus,who had a short-time and still was fearsome and dreadful. And yes,Nihilus would be enough to take both Palpatine and Luke just by his Force leeching drain.

Also Sidious didn't suck Byss,only siphoned the energies from the people and the planet.

I think Palpatine's extreme power during Dark Empire is more from him draining the life-force of the people of Byss.

The Dark Empire sourcebook for the old d6 RPG had established that since not long after he became Emperor, he started letting people migrate to Byss to live lives of luxury, with their needs attended to by droids and automation, free to live their lives in recreation and pageantry as Imperial propaganda made Byss out to be some kind of paradise. Despite allowing billions to migrate there, there were far more applying for Byss visas than could go.

The entire population, its structures, those Empire-staged pageants, were all part of an elaborate indoctrination plan to make them accept his draining of their life-forces and channeling it into them. Not enough to kill them, but to shorten their lifespans and break their wills and spirits, giving him a constant flow of energy to make him more powerful than ever.

He was deeply weakened by the shock of his first death and transferring bodies, taking years to recuperate. His vast jump in power between Episode VI and Dark Empire couldn't come from just training and practice, the only real change he had was that he was residing on Byss, where he was slowly draining the lives of billions to fuel himself.

Because he was using the population of Byss, his throne world and laboratory in the Deep Core to drain their life energies to fuel his return. With an entire planet's life force fueling him, he moved beyond just Force lightning to massive "Force storms" which could attack fleets and destroy ships, and even create wormholes between worlds using the dark side.

Luke and Sidious kick them to the curb

Originally posted by Kosmos Supreme
Luke and Sidious kick them to the curb

You're wrong my boy.

Nihilus is a cryptic and powerful Sith Lord stronger even than Sidious just because of his voidal condition. Nihilus had eaten planets to sustain his Hunger easily and could do it from another solar system.
Darth Traya might not be powerful or have any good physical strength,but I assure she's a good manipulator and deceiver just as Sidious is,even better I'd say.

Given the fact that the world is neutral in the Force,it holds no light side,no dark side,and none of them can be amped or boosted,Nihilus just absorbs them with his leeching drain.

Also Palpatine won't dare to conjure a wormhole because he admits later that he cannot control such a technique in his Book of Anger as I recall. Even if he can do it,he can do it only remotely,because a wormhole siphons the Force energy,so he'd be consumed too near the wormhole.

Also Nihilus feeds Force energy,life-force and the Force itself,so if Sidious conjures one next to Lord of Hunger,the power that Nihilus'd get would be enough to tear open the fabric of the Force from an entire galaxy.

Even if Sidious does it remotely Nihilus will still feed on the wormhole,and would get the same result.

Really here there is no contest...

And before believe Luke or Yoda saying that Sidious is the strongest Sith who ever lived,you have to know that Luke doesn't have the slightest clue about the ancient or Old Republic Sith Lords or Jedi,he never heard of them and Yoda barely knows something about Darth Bane,only the general stuffs. Luke encountered Exar Kun, but even he was about to reap Luke's soul from his body while Kun was a spirit,but was stopped by the other Jedi and Vodo Siosk-Baas' spirit. But let's not start another debate...

It is obvious how much you discredit the ancient and Old Sith or Jedi just because Palpatine was declared numero uno or Luke as Jedi or Anakin earlier "official"!!!
😆 🙂

I am sure Lucas doesn't know Nihilus,Exar Kun or even Vitiate enough to make such a statement that Sidious is numero uno!

If you don't know Darth Nihilus that's your problem. If the "sources" dictate your will and you don't want to use your brain to make a struggle to figure out about other characters' feats and powers or weaknesses that is your problem!

Apart from the Dark Empire comic books where he(Lucas) stated in an interview that Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord,Lucas has or better said had no idea about the other major characters that appeared and were still developed. It was easy for him to state Sidious the strongest Sith since he made him and he to not know likes like Vitiate,Exar Kun or Darth Nihilus.

I bet if you ask Drew Karpyshyn he will say you that Vitiate was the most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived(and he was too a dark side nexus)

Or others will state you that their major characters are when they are asked in an interview about that.
For example in the Darth Plageuis novel Luceno stated that Darth Plagueis was the most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived(look at the cover) and not Vitiate or Sidious.

See there are everywhere just "hyperboles"!!!

And while Nihilus is the strongest Sith IMHO and possible could be equal with the Mortis because of his unsual and tragical condition.

With a good strategy:

1.Lure him on a world devoid of Force or an artificial one,put some "food"( captured Jedi or Sith,or other Force sensitives)

2.When he arrives blow him with the Death Star or something else and recite a spell to encase his spirit into an amulet or something he cannot escape,make a ritual,or make wall of light and bind his spirit to the planet,and as a result he will die eventually.

As strong Nihilus is,weak is as well. 😉 🙂 😎

Freedon Nadd, all authors echo the statements by Leland Chee, Star Wars sourcebooks, Star Wars essential guides, and Lucas himself that Darth Sidious is the most powerful ever. Just by feats and accolades alone we know Sidious is the strongest ever, it is simple.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
I bet if you ask Drew Karpyshyn he will say you that Vitiate was the most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived(and he was too a dark side nexus)

Or others will state you that their major characters are when they are asked in an interview about that.
For example in the Darth Plageuis novel Luceno stated that Darth Plagueis was the most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived(look at the cover) and not Vitiate or Sidious.

George Lucas' opinion is a little different than Drew Karpyshyn or any other author who contributed to the star wars EU. Like Ancient said, there is so much material depicting and solidifying Sidious as the most powerful Sith ever.

The book covers are marketing tools, we've all discussed this before. Book covers are basically irrelevant, though to be clear, the Plagueis cover was stating he was the most powerful Sith ever up until that point. The only other candidate is Vitiate and even then, it may be referring to the most powerful of the Banite Sith.

Sidious is more poweful than Nihilus, more versatile than Nihilus, more skilled than Nihilus and far, far faster than anything Nihilus has shown to react to.

Nihilus dies.

Originally posted by Trocity
George Lucas' opinion is a little different than Drew Karpyshyn or any other author who contributed to the star wars EU. Like Ancient said, there is so much material depicting and solidifying Sidious as the most powerful Sith ever.

The book covers are marketing tools, we've all discussed this before. Book covers are basically irrelevant, though to be clear, the Plagueis cover was stating he was the most powerful Sith ever up until that point. The only other candidate is Vitiate and even then, it may be referring to the most powerful of the Banite Sith.

Sidious is more poweful than Nihilus, more versatile than Nihilus, more skilled than Nihilus and far, far faster than anything Nihilus has shown to react to.

Nihilus dies.

🙂 😄 😆

Prove to me it is. I have never witnessed a use of Force drain take physical matter from everything that the Force touches at the molecular level -- including people, flora, fauna, even some structures. The planet Katarr went from a lush paradise to an unpopulated, desiccated ruin in the blink of an eye. Aside from the one survivor, everything was ripped away. And all done by one individual in an unfortunate circumstance. Which would seem to counter your reaction argument as well. An individual is nothing to the population of a planet, especially one as strong as Sidious. Nihilus hunts strong sources of Force energy, it is nourishment for him. He is desperate to quell his hunger. And the closer he is to stronger sources of Force energy, the stronger he becomes. His own assassins and Sith are proof of that as he would have needed to teach them that technique. So again, Sidious wouldn't even get close before he and everyone around him was consumed, on a planetary scale. And even if he had enough time to conjure up the Force storm.. I don't think you understand the dire consequences of having such a colossal amount of concentrated Force energy anywhere near Nihilus. That destructive mass would have been consumed and allowed Nihilus to reach across a section of the Galaxy.

Side note: You have only delivered a time of how long Sidious' Force drain lasts. The initiation of such a power is different from its overall usage. Besides, all you have said is that Sidious' use of Force drain is slow and takes its ultimate toll over the course of years. Nihilus' foreign ability is instantaneous.

Secondly, that was the perfect and only situation to contain the Nihilus threat. It took Darth Traya using an intermediary to lure him to Telos. If that didn't work, he would have remained hidden in darkness. It is difficult if not impossible for a Force User to sense the presence of something not connected to the Force. Anyways when he arrived, he fought against his own trained Shadow Assassin, a Mandalorian War Veteran trained to resist and battle Force Users, and most importantly another walking Force Wound. Which was precisely why he fell at all that day. He cannot consume the Force from something that does not inherently have the Force within it. So he exhausted himself when he tried. Why not consume the other two? Because he is bound to Visas and wants to turn her back to his side, and he has no interest in Canderous. Next to no Force within him to mean anything to Nihilus. So while distracted, drained, starved, exhausted, and still concentrating of keeping his ship together, he still managed to hold his own in a 3v1, mainly against the only opponent he could not consume. He was backed into a corner and still almost won, if Visas had not weakened him further by severing their bond. Your point is weak in this case.

Again you address power. Again you fail to understand that power alone is not always enough. Nihilus is a being that bleeds the Force, wounds it, and even kills it. He is the result of Darth Traya's meddling in her attempt to eliminate the Force itself, but she is his enemy because he also takes life. That, as quoted by her, is no victory.

Anyways I suppose we could go on for days debating this, but KotOR canon has it explained that there is no defense against Nihilus' ability. Since Force drain actually does have a defense, it is simple to conclude that they are not the same thing.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
KotOR canon has it explained that there is no defense against Nihilus' ability.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Freedon Nadd, all authors echo the statements by Leland Chee, Star Wars sourcebooks, Star Wars essential guides, and Lucas himself that Darth Sidious is the most powerful ever. Just by feats and accolades alone we know Sidious is the strongest ever, it is simple.

Ah so basically you compare just their feats or achievements,not how long they take them to do it.

So here you strictly go just by feats!!! 😆 😛

But anyways Nihilus still stomps.

Rules of Nihilus makes him nearly unbeatable. Only Force Wounds can resist his weird drain and he can drain entire planets, he gets stronger with everyone he kills, he can lift space ships out of gravity wells. Nihilus wins via unblockable drain on its own. Add in TK and Force lightning and it makes the "Sidious is the strongest Sith to ever exist" statement hard to believe some times.

Also when it comes about an opponent like Nihilus,it doesn't matter how knowledgeable you are in the Force,your political power or military power. For Nihilus you are just a "dinner".

Nihilus's drain is a direct effect of him being a Force Wound and is unlike any other Force drain seen in the mythos. It effectively acts like a Sever Force and Force drain hybrid, and is stated by Kreia, the mother of all things Force drain, to be unblockable. Despite this,his Force drain doesn't work on other Force Wounds and attempting to do such will only tire him. Being a Force Wound means he cannot wield the Force naturally and instead he must either form Force bonds or kill Force sensitives in order to use it. Each kill increases his power permanently but the power and increase is dependant on the strength of the person killed. Example, if he killed someone who was just a regular old farmer the power increase would be extremely small but if he killed Yoda the power increase would be great. Forming Force bonds is the best way of increasing your power, but if the bond dies or severs their connection to you, you lose the increase(like Visas did to Nihilus on Ravager)

Thus is why he is so over powered. It is a bold claim to say a character is stronger than Sidious but just looking at the facts its also a true claim. The only saving grace is that, despite having a Sith title, he doesn't follow Sith teachings, instead just roaming the galaxy feeding on planets. So it is really up to debate if he is a TRUE Sith. So Sidious may still be the strongest Sith but Nihilus is the stronger character.

Nihilus being so strong is also the reason that after his game, SW canon almost refused to acknowledge his existence again. Aside from a few easter eggs here and their.

Sidious likely blitzes.

@Freedon, could you answer this or are we to assume that this is simply not the case.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
KotOR canon has it explained that there is no defense against Nihilus' ability.

Originally posted by Stigma
Out of curiosity, where is it exactly stated?

Palpatine solos, with moderate difficulty at worse. Perhaps even - as Trocity said - blitzes.

Originally posted by McP
Palpatine solos, with moderate difficulty at worse. Perhaps even - as Trocity said - blitzes.

Sidious solos. With Luke's help, it's laughably easy.

Originally posted by Stigma
@Freedon, could you answer this or are we to assume that this is simply not the case.

"I do not believe he knows his ship has been boarded, and if he did, he would not care. The extent of his power cannot be put into words, and his perceptions have grown as well. To him… you are dust motes in a storm, a grain upon the beach, and as insignificant as a body that orbits the graveyard of Malachor."

―Visas Marr and Tobin (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic: The Sith Lords)

"His power is great, and it comes from hunger. He is a wound in the Force, more presence than flesh, and in his wake, life dies, sacrificing itself to his hunger."

―Visas Marr (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic: The Sith Lords)

"As Nihilus greedy consumes entire planets life energies, the dark side macerates him even faster."

―Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

"Darth Nihilus was known as the Lord of Hunger and was noted for his ability to literally consume the Force energy of his victims, which was used to sustain his own life energies. It was rumored that he could consume the Force energy of an entire planet(Katarr as an example)

―The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

"And it devours him as he devours others—his mere presence kills all around him, slowly, feeding him. He is already dead, it is simply a question of how many he kills before he falls."

―Darth Traya (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic: The Sith Lords)

"[Darth Nihilus can] draw life energy from living beings, gradually absorbing it [himself]."

―Star Wars: The Dark Side Sourcebook

"Nihilus powers grew so extreme that, for most beings, mere exposure to the Sith Lord would cause immediate and utterly mindless devotion."

―Star Wars Insider 88: Virtual Sith

"Darth Nihilus is so corrupted in the Dark Side that his very speech causes pain and death to all who hear it."

―Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Prima Guide

Nihilus is an error of Star Wars EU. He can't be killed by normal means. We know for a fact that the most powerful Sith to ever live could be defeated. Why? Because they all die. If one of the Sith we know was the most powerful, he still lost and died.

The utter vast majority of Sith can be killed with a saber through the gut. That's what I consider normal means. A duel that results in a death. That can't be done with Nihilus.

I can't argue with peoples perceptions. There's nothing that says only Palpatine could ever possibly make a Force storm like that. No one else ever tried. I don't think he's number one, simply because there's literally no way to prove that he was irrefutably stronger than every other Sith Lord. At the same time you can't prove that he wasn't. You will literally never be able to tell a Sidious fanboy that he wasn't the single most powerful Sith of all time because there's literally no way to prove it. Every Sith had flaws and every one of them died. None of them are all powerful. There is no number one Sith Lord.

Every Sith had flaws, and every one of them died.

I'm kind of sick of this "Darth X" was the most powerful Sith Lord EVER" fanboyism, of taking some Sith Lords and gushing about how invincible they were and how they could do anything, stop anyone, and how it was outright *wrong* when they were defeated by someone.

Sidious, Krayt, Vitiate, Revan, Exar Kun, they all died, and they were all defeated.

Being more powerful than someone is not always the same as being as able to kill them. Powerful people can still make mistakes and get killed by those who are fundamentally weaker than them.

I don't care what kind of Sith Lord you are, a bombardment that would burn a planet to the mantle would destroy them too.

. . .or trap them on a ship and throw that ship into a star, or better yet, into one of the black holes of the Maw.

. . .or have someone with a ysalamiri and a few thermal detonators get up close and personal.

Again, NOBODY is invincible, that goes for Darth Nihilus too.