Darth Nihilus and Darth Traya - vs - DE Sidious and DE Luke

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
"I do not believe he knows his ship has been boarded, and if he did, he would not care. The extent of his power cannot be put into words, and his perceptions have grown as well. To him… you are dust motes in a storm, a grain upon the beach, and as insignificant as a body that orbits the graveyard of Malachor."

―Visas Marr and Tobin (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic: The Sith Lords)

"His power is great, and it comes from hunger. He is a wound in the Force, more presence than flesh, and in his wake, life dies, sacrificing itself to his hunger."

―Visas Marr (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic: The Sith Lords)

"As Nihilus greedy consumes entire planets life energies, the dark side macerates him even faster."

―Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

"Darth Nihilus was known as the Lord of Hunger and was noted for his ability to literally consume the Force energy of his victims, which was used to sustain his own life energies. It was rumored that he could consume the Force energy of an entire planet(Katarr as an example)

―The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

"And it devours him as he devours others—his mere presence kills all around him, slowly, feeding him. He is already dead, it is simply a question of how many he kills before he falls."

―Darth Traya (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic: The Sith Lords)

"[Darth Nihilus can] draw life energy from living beings, gradually absorbing it [himself]."

―Star Wars: The Dark Side Sourcebook

"Nihilus powers grew so extreme that, for most beings, mere exposure to the Sith Lord would cause immediate and utterly mindless devotion."

―Star Wars Insider 88: Virtual Sith

"Darth Nihilus is so corrupted in the Dark Side that his very speech causes pain and death to all who hear it."

―Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Prima Guide

Great.

Nowhere it is stated that there is no defence to Nihilus's ability which was your claim.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
KotOR canon has it explained that there is no defense against Nihilus' ability.

Moreover, many of these statements are just opinions of the likes of Traya or Visas. Characters' opinions are fallible.

Sidious does have one thing on his side none of the other Sith Lords has, however.

Word of Lucas proclaiming him the stongest Sith.

You basically have to flip George Lucas off to claim otherwise.

Originally posted by Stigma
facepalm

Great.

Nowhere it is stated that there is no defence to Nihilus's ability which was your claim.

Moreover, many of these statements are just opinions of the likes of Traya or Visas. Characters' opinions are fallible.

Ah I see...

So if Luke,Yoda,Vader or Dooku said that Sidious was the strongest Shit* they had ever seen,was because of their point of view,which they are how do you call,"Characters' opinions are fallible."

Okay then look the proof Sidious isn't the strongest Sith of all the times.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
Sidious does have one thing on his side none of the other Sith Lords has, however.

Word of Lucas proclaiming him the stongest Sith.

You basically have to flip George Lucas off to claim otherwise.

And if you take it on "Lucas canon style",then there are no prequels and sequels of the movies,therefore Sidious doesn't have those overpowered shity featys,neither Luke as well...

So Nihilus and Traya stomp them easily...

BTW,I don't care about the movie novels.

Still the "Force killers" are victorious.

I'm aware you can't argue with peoples perceptions. There's nothing that says only Palpatine could ever possibly make a Force storm like that. No one else ever tried. I don't think he's number one, simply because there's literally no way to prove that he was irrefutably stronger than every other Sith Lord. At the same time you can't prove that he wasn't. You will literally never be able to tell a Sidious fanboy that he wasn't the single most powerful Sith of all time because there's literally no way to prove it. Every Sith had flaws and every one of them died. None of them are all powerful. There is no number one Sith Lord!!!

Every Sith had flaws, and every one of them died.

I'm kind of sick of this "Darth X" was the most powerful Sith Lord EVER" fanboyism, of taking some Sith Lord and gushing about how invincible they were and how they could do anything, stop anyone, and how it was outright *wrong* when they were defeated by someone.

Sidious, Krayt, Vitiate, Revan, Exar Kun, they all died, and they were all defeated.

I don't care what kind of Sith Lord you are, a bombardment that would burn a planet to the mantle would destroy them too.

. . .or trap them on a ship and throw that ship into a star, or better yet, into one of the black holes of the Maw.

. . .or have someone with a ysalamiri and a few thermal detonators get up close and personal.

Again, NOBODY is invincible, that goes for Darth Nihilus too.

And yes I believe Nihilus beats them(but depends what do you understand through power).

Because he would consume literally anyone that wasn't like the Exile. She was fated to defeat him and was the only one who could do it. Palpatine could probably out duel him and may have been stronger in the Force but none of that matters when facing Nihilus. Even if Palpatine was considerably more powerful than Nihilus, but that doesn't stop Nihilus from consuming him.

Also being more powerful than someone is not always the same as being as able to kill them. Powerful people can still make mistakes and get killed by those who are fundamentally weaker than them.

Nihilus is an error in Star Wars. He can't be killed by normal means. We know for a fact that the most powerful Sith to ever live(you deem it) could be defeated. Why? Because they all die. If one of the Sith we know was the most powerful, he still lost and died.

The utter vast majority of Sith can be killed with a saber through the gut. That's what I consider normal means. A duel that results in a death. That can't be done with Nihilus.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
So if Luke,Yoda,Vader or Dooku said that Sidious was the strongest Shit* they had ever seen,was because of their point of view,which they are how do you call,"Characters' opinions are fallible."

I see you have some major reading comprehension problems. Thus it’s no surprise your debating skills are atrocious.

Your claim was:

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
KotOR canon has it explained that there is no defense against Nihilus' ability.

When I asked you to back this up you provided nothing besides quotes that Nihilus is really powerful etc. No sh*t Sherlock.

And now you provide this strawman. Yes, character's opinions are fallible, no matter if that’s Vader or Visas. Their opinions are not conclusive.

Yet, what is funny is that I never claimed on the grounds of Dooku’s or Vader’s opinions that Sidious is the most powerful. Actually, I didn’t even bring that up in this thread.

This showcases your lack of understanding how to debate.

In the light of the above I must conclude that your aforementioned claim is BS.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
And if you take it on "Lucas canon style",then there are no prequels and sequels of the movies,therefore Sidious doesn't have those overpowered shity featys,neither Luke as well...

Originally posted by Stigma
If you take "Lucas canon style" there are no Nihilus or Traya, thus Sidious wins by default. 😂

Palpatine vs. Sephiroth, who wins?
"Sephiroth is not part of Star Wars Canon and therefore loses automatically."

You know very well what happens when someone tries that in a debate.

My god. I was wrong about your debating skills being atrocious. They are even worse.

Are you completely ignorant that it is YOU who attempted this line of argument?

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
And if you take it on "Lucas canon style",then there are no prequels and sequels of the movies,therefore Sidious doesn't have those overpowered shity featys,neither Luke as well...
So Nihilus and Traya stomp them easily...

Nihilus' drain is an "I win" against practically any Force User.

Let's see:

1.Palpatine doesn't eat worlds.

2.Nihilus isn't *really* a proper Force User in the normal sense. He's a one-of-a-kind abomination, a 'wound in the force'. His drain is pretty much unique to him.

3.The reference for Palpatine having Nihilus' ability and better control is wrong.

4.Sidious was drawing a "little energy" off the population of Byss, but he's never shown anything like Nihilus's hunger, which is the result of a very specific condition that Palpatine does not have.

Palpatine has also never used it against other Force Ssers, while Nihilus can do so to powerful ones en mass. Force drain isn't a unique ability, but Nihilus's ever-growing hunger and level of force drain is. It may very well allow him to drain Palps before that comes up.

5.I have seen GS's claim. It's dismissed. What Nihilus does isnt a Sith Power it's just a warped tear.

6.There's plenty of abilities Palpatine doesn't have, like Muur's "turn everyone near me into Rakghouls," one. A lot, sure, but not all. Anyway, Nihilus's force drain power level doesn't come from knowledge to begin with, so it hardly matters.

7.He took out a large gathering of Jedi as well as everything else on the planet at once. Estimates on the number of Jedi there were around a hundred, including multiple strong masters.

Nihilus has a unique condition unrelated to his original potential. Palpatine has never shown the ability to do the like.

8. Nihilus has demonstrated massively more power than Palpatine ever has.

You're arguing general statements about Sidious's ranking as a Sith vs an ability that has nothing to do with normal Force potential. Featwise, Nihilus wins.

9.Darth Nihilus speaks. Palpatine dies. As others have stated, the "Palpatine knows every Sith technique" wouldn't apply even if it was true because Nihilus' planet wiping is part of his nature, not a technique. "Palpatine is the most powerful Sith ever" also doesn't necessarily apply because Kreia denied Nihilus' ability as a power, but called it a weakness, because it was consuming and destroying Nihilus himself.

As it stands, Nihilus' feat of wiping out a whole planet (one with hundreds of Jedi on it, and with a general population of Miraluka, an entire race of Force sensitives that rely on the Force for sight) beats out Palpatine's own admittedly impressive feats.

Sidious loses due to not being a Wound in the Force and having no counter to Nihilus consuming him. Deal with it. Being the greatest Sith ever only means he dies here. Nihilus consumes, Palpatine and any any other Jedi/Sith who isn't a Wound in the Force. Luke included. Deal with it.

Nihilu killed a planet full of Force sensitives in a moment and could do it again. To Luke or Palpy. Strangely enough the ones argueing for Palpy also said Luke would LOSE.

He beat Jedi Exile and his group rather casually all the while (IIRC) holding his ship together by pure will. If you have the Force he can feed on you. Blah blah Palpatine is the most power SITH ever! A book said so! Yoda said so!!! Sith are FORCE users. Sith gets consumed. Be it Revan, Bane, Exar Kun, Zannah, Wyrlook, Krayt, Sadow, Ragnos, Palpatine, Traya or anyone else. If in a fight Palpatine goes at Nihilus he's dead. Best option? Wormhole him somewhere.

Only person I see so far who maybe has a chance is Abeloth.

As for Sith not being as power as the OT era onwards, Luke himself says that Exar Kun and Palpatine were the most powerful users of the dark side he ever met.

As for Lucas, until he tells us all that the stuff written on the older Sith isn't real and never happened it's more impressive than anything Dooku, Maul, and sometimes what Palpy did.

Oh yes. The Exile was a Wound in the Force. Oh yes Palpy never drained a planet until it died. NEVER EVER! EVER!

So until you can prove he did without saying "Oh but he didn't want to cuz -insert bullshit excuse here- dont keep posting General.
Lucas's vision of SW is a narrow slot of few decades covering the timeline of the six films, his pronouncements being made on the basis of that narrow vision, rather than the millennia of history that exist in the SW EU, which he has no need to take account of.

I see you cherish the "I spam a lot" school of rhetoric.

In this case, I'm off to do something more productive.

Originally posted by Stigma
I see you cherish the "I spam a lot" school of rhetoric.

In this case, I'm off to do something more productive.

If you don't know Darth Nihilus that's your problem. If the "sources" dictate your will and your way to struggle to figure out about other characters' feats and powers or weaknesses that is your problem!

When you don't like something,at once you throw the "Lucas canon mode" just because the other character is from a different universe. Which proves your "butthurt" feeling.

Nihilus' innate ability was caused by surviving the Mass Shadow Generator,no way he learned "normally" that ability.

People like you as well,don't want to believe that Darth Nihilus is special. They want to discredit him because they can't accept the idea that he could consume anyone that wasn't a Wound. They can't accept the idea that perhaps Palpatine, Revan, and people like them were likely more powerful than Nihilus, it wouldn't stop them from being eaten.