Originally posted by Q99
How often does she do each of those? And for that matter, has she ever 'ported limbs off, trapped someone in a solid object, or so on?
I'm not getting into the debate on Magick herself, but just gotta point to make. Do you think it really matters how many times she's done something considering the nature of the debate here? The discussion is about who's most powerful, not who'd win in a fight. If a character has done something at least once, or at least SHOWN to be capable of it(not just can do it in pure theory, but something shown to support it) and without there being extenuating circumstances that allowed it, then that's all that matters when gauging how POWERFUL someone is.
Originally posted by h1a8
I only know the main characters so I could be wrong but my vote is WW.The reason I say this is because she has perfect defenses:
1. ftl speed and reflexes
Reflexes I can buy, but her overall speed? What has she done? I've seen little to nothing of either her flight or combat speed to indicate she's even near-lightspeed, let alone FTL.
Originally posted by h1a8
2. super skill
While useful in a fight, skill shouldn't count towards power. Unless someone has a power that gives them skill(like some supernatural talent for fighting, or an ability to draw skill/knowledge). Which Diana doesn't have. Just really trained.
Originally posted by h1a8
5. Is resistant to TP
IS she? I recall something about the Maxwell Lord thing, but even she seemed unclear of it, and it's arguable that the nature of what Max was doing is why she'd be resistant. I remember during the DARKNESS WITHIN crossover that she wasn't able to resist Maxima's telepathy when Eclipso took her over, although Maxima's a damn powerful telepath.
Originally posted by h1a8
She has great attacks
3. The counter attack and combo
What do you mean by this?
Originally posted by h1a8
4. The redeflection of blasts back at you
Doesn't this fall under the Aegis thing you already mentioned?
Originally posted by h1a8
She has great strength
2. Helping to move quantifiable objects they weighs more than planetary objects.
What are you talking about? What feat of strength does she have greater than Earth, other than helping Superman slow-down Spectre? You said "objects," plural, so clearly you meant multiple feats, unless that was a typo.
Originally posted by h1a8
3. Physically holding her own with beings who have planetary strength.
Honestly, she doesn't look that great against Superman when he's not holding back.
Originally posted by h1a8
She has great durability
2. Can withstand hits from Ares and DD (beings much stronger than Superman).
I'll have to take your word on Ares(would like evidence of this, though), but I don't think Doomsday is a good example. During DOOMSDAY WARS, when Brainiac was in control, he was clearly toying with her, so I doubt she was enduring what he could truly dish-out. Plus, it being Brainiac in control probably meant his strength wasn't increasing.
Originally posted by h1a8
Like with everyone she has weaknesses:
2. BFRal to another dimension. I'm not sure she can get back. The usage of speed can prevent this though.
Someone already covered this, with a couple of examples, although he wasn't 100% sure on the first. I can back that she has on occasion traveled between Olympus and Earth. But even if she can consistently do this on her own, it doesn't necessarily mean she can escape dimensional BFR in general. On the Olympus thing, of course.
Originally posted by Delta1938I'm not the definitive Diana expert but I've seen feats where she went halfway around the Earth in a split second with both Superman and flash, entered the speed force under her own power, moving her arms so fast that she simultaneously deflect numerous beams of light no matter how large the barrage, lassoed zoom while blindfolded, lassoed amazo with flash's powers before he can react, etc. She may not be as fast as Superman in raw speed but her battle speed (movement of limbs and reflexes) are second only to flash.
Reflexes I can buy, but her overall speed? What has she done? I've seen little to nothing of either her flight or combat speed to indicate she's even near-lightspeed, let alone FTL.
Skill can singlehandedly make one character beat beings in a higher tier. Look at CA and Batman. It is her skill that allows her to compete with Superman and possible be able to beat him for a majority.
While useful in a fight, skill shouldn't count towards power. Unless someone has a power that gives them skill(like some supernatural talent for fighting, or an ability to draw skill/knowledge). Which Diana doesn't have. Just really trained.
I'm not a WW expert but I believe it was stated in comics that she is immune or highly resistant against TP. She even has a limited form of TP.
IS she? I recall something about the Maxwell Lord thing, but even she seemed unclear of it, and it's arguable that the nature of what Max was doing is why she'd be resistant. I remember during the DARKNESS WITHIN crossover that she wasn't able to resist Maxima's telepathy when Eclipso took her over, although Maxima's a damn powerful telepath.
Due to WW's great skill she is known at times to counter her foes attack and counter with a barrage of skillful attacks (a combo). She is also known to deflect beams right back at its sender. Potentially (bloodlusted) she could beat most heralds within a few seconds with a simple counter and tiara slice/or lasso tie.
What do you mean by this?
No. Her bracers deflect beams by default. With her great skill, speed, and reflexes she can sometimes aim the bracer in such a way to send the beam back wherever she wants.
Doesn't this fall under the Aegis thing you already mentioned?
It was a typo. Sorry. I meant unquantifiable and I was referring to the Spectre feat only. By portrayal she is often seen as a peer to Superman in strength (not as strong as him but not far behind). Also, she has feats of momentarily overpowering a daximite, being stated to have a strength greater than Hercules, etc. She also has the godwave which increase her abilities 10 fold.
What are you talking about? What feat of strength does she have greater than Earth, other than helping Superman slow-down Spectre? You said "objects," plural, so clearly you meant multiple feats, unless that was a typo.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Honestly, she doesn't look that great against Superman when he's not holding back.[/B][/QUOTE]In Sacrifice it was her that was holding back while still being able to compete. Although I don't use comic fights as evidence unless both characters are fighting optimally (as indicative of a forum fight) but she could have killed or stopped Superman within the first few moments of battle if she really wanted to. She could have countered one of his punches with a tiara slice instantly, or lassoed him after ringing his ears, etc.
She has the ability to pressure point hit Superman in order to buy her enough time to finish him off (especially with the lasso).
Ares is her main enemy. She was created or gifted in order to battle Ares. The same as Drax was created to stop Thanos. My point is that she is no slouch on durability. She can hang with the big boys is all I'm saying.
I'll have to take your word on Ares(would like evidence of this, though), but I don't think Doomsday is a good example. During DOOMSDAY WARS, when Brainiac was in control, he was clearly toying with her, so I doubt she was enduring what he could truly dish-out. Plus, it being Brainiac in control probably meant his strength wasn't increasing.
I'm not sure, never known her to dimension travel.Someone already covered this, with a couple of examples, although he wasn't 100% sure on the first. I can back that she has on occasion traveled between Olympus and Earth. But even if she can consistently do this on her own, it doesn't necessarily mean she can escape dimensional BFR in general. On the Olympus thing, of course.
Originally posted by h1a8
I'm not the definitive Diana expert but I've seen feats where she went halfway around the Earth in a split second with both Superman and flash, entered the speed force under her own power, moving her arms so fast that she simultaneously deflect numerous beams of light no matter how large the barrage, lassoed zoom while blindfolded, lassoed amazo with flash's powers before he can react, etc. She may not be as fast as Superman in raw speed but her battle speed (movement of limbs and reflexes) are second only to flash.
No, Superman's still faster. His feats are more impressive, and on more than one occasion we've seen him faster than her in a fight. As for traveling around Earth, there was nothing to indicate that was even near-lightspeed. It could be very high supersonic, but that example didn't look like an FTL feat. The entering the Speed Force example seems suspect. Not a Flash expert, but to my understanding, you can't do that on your own without a connection to it. Superboy Prime implied that you can if you're fast enough, but I've seen nothing to indicate Wonder Woman can fly faster than Superman, who I don't believe has ever entered it on his own(or at all). The Zoom example I believe was more skill than speed by anticipating him(although she had to be fast, it doesn't mean FTL, as someone who didn't even appear to be superhuman in speed was able to do the same with Flash), and the Amazo example while fast, I think surprise had to do with it. I've seen her have impressive blocking examples, but that doesn't mean her combat speed is FTL.
Originally posted by h1a8
Skill can singlehandedly make one character beat beings in a higher tier. Look at CA and Batman. It is her skill that allows her to compete with Superman and possible be able to beat him for a majority.
I never disputed skill helping in a fight. But unless it's some type of power, it has nothing to do with how powerful one is. And last I checked, Wonder Woman's skill came from training and experience, not a power. So this isn't something that matters for the topic.
Originally posted by h1a8
I'm not a WW expert but I believe it was stated in comics that she is immune or highly resistant against TP. She even has a limited form of TP.
I know she's been controlled by telepathy at least once(although Maxima's a pretty powerful one), and I think she's been effected at least once before, some example with the white Martians, but I'm not sure. The only time I've seen that might have been an example of TP resistance, the Max example in SACRIFICE, is suspect in it being pure resistance, and IIRC even she wasn't positive.
Originally posted by h1a8
Due to WW's great skill she is known at times to counter her foes attack and counter with a barrage of skillful attacks (a combo). She is also known to deflect beams right back at its sender. Potentially (bloodlusted) she could beat most heralds within a few seconds with a simple counter and tiara slice/or lasso tie.
So, still on the skill. A non-factor in who's more POWERFUL.
Originally posted by h1a8
No. Her bracers deflect beams by default. With her great skill, speed, and reflexes she can sometimes aim the bracer in such a way to send the beam back wherever she wants.
um OK? And this argument is largely based around her skill, not strictly her power.
Originally posted by h1a8
It was a typo. Sorry. I meant unquantifiable and I was referring to the Spectre feat only. By portrayal she is often seen as a peer to Superman in strength (not as strong as him but not far behind). Also, she has feats of momentarily overpowering a daximite, being stated to have a strength greater than Hercules, etc. She also has the godwave which increase her abilities 10 fold.
Ah, ok. But on the Daxamite, if you mean what I think you do, I'm not impressed. Weren't they wrestling, thus it wasn't pure strength? Plus it's questionable how much sun she had, and she was blind in at least one eye IIRC, so that would effect her performance to a degree. Being stronger than Hercules doesn't impress me all that much, I haven't seen anything to indicate he's a planet-mover. I recall something about he admitted things he did had been embellished. But, no, she is far behind Superman. Her looking like a peer is because he holds back. Numerous occasions Superman has either overpowered her, or otherwise shown to be stronger.
Like here.
Or here.
Some people have tried to use this as evidence that she's close to his strength, but they either don't notice or ignore the context. Her pinning him has a lot to do with skill, and, well, him being distracted by Luthor's election. And, well, you can see what he does.
Then we have this.
She charges him, he stops her dead-on by grabbing her wrist. Also catches her punch. And he's through-out the entire fight, he's rather calm and not showing any real struggle. He generally treats her like she's not a threat at all. Then we have this.
Forcing her down, without too much effort, when Max was in control. Then we have this.
See how she's trying to force his hands off her throat? Watch this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9srBDFW0Z0
She's attempting to break his grip using a technique that allows a victim to break the grip of a STRONGER attacker. So, he's MUCH stronger than her.
Then there's this.
She tries to kill Mongul with her sword, he stops her cold.
And this isn't even including MAN OF TOMORROW #13 where she has help from Barda, Martian Manhunter and more and the leverage advantage, and they can still barely restrain him. Some argue that he was Sun-Amped, but considering how he tossed her around the issue before, and comparing his performance against Orion, I don't see him having a noticeable boost.
Originally posted by h1a8
In Sacrifice it was her that was holding back while still being able to compete. Although I don't use comic fights as evidence unless both characters are fighting optimally (as indicative of a forum fight) but she could have killed or stopped Superman within the first few moments of battle if she really wanted to. She could have countered one of his punches with a tiara slice instantly, or lassoed him after ringing his ears, etc.
She has the ability to pressure point hit Superman in order to buy her enough time to finish him off (especially with the lasso).
Actually, by her own words she was barely holding back. And his mental state was a serious, serious handicap. Yet he was still trashing her. In all reality that fight just shows how superior he is over her, considering how handicapped he was and she still barely wins, and on a technicality, that she likely wouldn't have pulled-off had he not been in his state of mind. And I don't know where you're getting that she could have stopped or killed him in the first few moments of the fight. He absolutely overwhelmed her while fighting like an idiot. The real turning point for her was when she snuck-up on him and attacked the ears. Something I doubt she would've accomplished if he knew he was fighting her instead of Doomsday(someone not known for stealth or tactics). The tiara is something that can hurt him, but only if it can hit him. If he he actually knew who he was facing, he could've dodged or countered it, and that would've been that.
Originally posted by h1a8
Ares is her main enemy. She was created or gifted in order to battle Ares. The same as Drax was created to stop Thanos. My point is that she is no slouch on durability. She can hang with the big boys is all I'm saying.
That tells me nothing about how strong Ares is. You claimed he was stronger than Superman. Why?
Originally posted by h1a8
I'm not sure, never known her to dimension travel.
Olympus is in another dimension, but this example doesn't mean she could generally counter dimension dump BFR. She did use her ability to reach Asgard in JLA/AVENGERS if that's worth anything.
Originally posted by -K-M-
She did, but did you read the issue? She only won because after Black Widow "defeated" her (in Limbo mind you) she turned her back and was moving on and then Magik stabbed her in the back with the soulsword
Haven't seen the fight yet. At least she did better then x-force and Wonderman 😛 Yup I agree, the avs vs battles have just been....and those fun facts are starting to get annoying.
So did she actually use any magic spells? armor up? use Limbo against her? Go demon mode? Did her demon army just watch the whole fight happen?or did she just go hand to hand with natasha in her regular human form the whole time? LOL.
Doc strange, Zatanna or Talisman vs widow, they just decide to engage her hand to hand... to be fair Illyana does brawl a lot more than they do..which i have no idea why, when she can do almost anything in Limbo.
She was probably just playing around with her food. She should have just gone demon mode and crushed her skull with her bare hands. well deathstroke tripped and stabbed wally so anything can happen i guess...
No, Superman's still faster. His feats are more impressive, and on more than one occasion we've seen him faster than her in a fight.
When they fight each other, she tends to get more hits in.
In JLA they directly addressed it- Superman is faster, i.e. he can run and fly faster. But WW has quicker arms and better reflexes.
Originally posted by Q99
When they fight each other, she tends to get more hits in.In JLA they directly addressed it- Superman is faster, i.e. he can run and fly faster. But WW has quicker arms and better reflexes.
Superman doesn't normally dodge, and he doesn't need many hits for Wonder Woman. She most certainly did not look faster than him here.
Unless she's just not that skilled? And I've seen nothing to indicate she has the kind of time perceptions that he does. She has more trained reflexes, but his time perceptions are faster, so it wouldn't matter if he was really using his speed.
Originally posted by Q99
When they fight each other, she tends to get more hits in.In JLA they directly addressed it- Superman is faster, i.e. he can run and fly faster. But WW has quicker arms and better reflexes.
Originally posted by nwg202
Haven't seen the fight yet. At least she did better then x-force and Wonderman 😛 Yup I agree, the avs vs battles have just been....and those fun facts are starting to get annoying.So did she actually use any magic spells? armor up? use Limbo against her? Go demon mode? Did her demon army just watch the whole fight happen?or did she just go hand to hand with natasha in her regular human form the whole time? LOL.
Doc strange, Zatanna or Talisman vs widow, they just decide to engage her hand to hand... to be fair Illyana does brawl a lot more than they do..which i have no idea why, when she can do almost anything in Limbo.
She was probably just playing around with her food. She should have just gone demon mode and crushed her skull with her bare hands. well deathstroke tripped and stabbed wally so anything can happen i guess...
Instatly took her to Limbo, and then sent several demons to attack Widow but she killed them with her guns. Magik then tried to cast a spell, but Widow jumped her before she could finish. She then started to pound on Magik, and then she summons 1000 demons, but Widow points a gun to her head and orders to take her back to the real world. She does. Magik is on the ground bloody and Widow turns her back and says "whose next?" and starts to leave. Magik then stabs her in the back with the Soulsword and then she mentioned it had to be a game to her or she would be dead (Widow). If Widow didnt turn her back and truely finished it she would have won.
Magik never took demon form, but really she jobbed. There is no reason for Widow to even give Magik pause.
Originally posted by Delta1938The thing is WW has blocked barrages of light speed beams simultaneously proving that she can move her limbs and react at ftl speeds. You can't block a barrage of light speed attacks without being FTL. It's impossible. She even got examples of blocking them on both sides, front and back. Yes Superman is faster though. You are right. It's her skill and speed together that allows her to keep up in a battle with him.
No, Superman's still faster. His feats are more impressive, and on more than one occasion we've seen him faster than her in a fight. As for traveling around Earth, there was nothing to indicate that was even near-lightspeed. It could be very high supersonic, but that example didn't look like an FTL feat. The entering the Speed Force example seems suspect. Not a Flash expert, but to my understanding, you can't do that on your own without a connection to it. Superboy Prime implied that you can if you're fast enough, but I've seen nothing to indicate Wonder Woman can fly faster than Superman, who I don't believe has ever entered it on his own(or at all). The Zoom example I believe was more skill than speed by anticipating him(although she had to be fast, it doesn't mean FTL, as someone who didn't even appear to be superhuman in speed was able to do the same with Flash), and the Amazo example while fast, I think surprise had to do with it. I've seen her have impressive blocking examples, but that doesn't mean her combat speed is FTL.
Your definition of being more powerful is different than mine. More powerful is being more formidable and not just having greater power output (as in blast strength or punch strength). Power is the ability to which one can force an outcome of a fight. The greater one can affect the outcome then the more powerful they are.I never disputed skill helping in a fight. But unless it's some type of power, it has nothing to do with how powerful one is. And last I checked, Wonder Woman's skill came from training and experience, not a power. So this isn't something that matters for the topic.
I wish Nver was here or a WW expert. They can give you other instances or evidence to her resistance against TP, I can't so I'll concede there.I know she's been controlled by telepathy at least once(although Maxima's a pretty powerful one), and I think she's been effected at least once before, some example with the white Martians, but I'm not sure. The only time I've seen that might have been an example of TP resistance, the Max example in SACRIFICE, is suspect in it being pure resistance, and IIRC even she wasn't positive.
Again, it factors into being more powerful since it's relevant to how it forces an outcome. Again my definition is different than yours.So, still on the skill. A non-factor in who's more POWERFUL.
Skill is a power, whether gained through training, magic, or etc. it's irrelevant. Power=ability to force an outcome.um OK? And this argument is largely based around her skill, not strictly her power.
While grappled up, it shows strength not skill. If not, then no that no amount of skill can cause you to win a wrestle if you are very much weaker. You will simply be restrained with ease.Ah, ok. But on the Daxamite, if you mean what I think you do, I'm not impressed. Weren't they wrestling, thus it wasn't pure strength? Plus it's questionable how much sun she had, and she was blind in at least one eye IIRC, so that would effect her performance to a degree. Being stronger than Hercules doesn't impress me all that much, I haven't seen anything to indicate he's a planet-mover. I recall something about he admitted things he did had been embellished. But, no, she is far behind Superman. Her looking like a peer is because he holds back. Numerous occasions Superman has either overpowered her, or otherwise shown to be stronger.
Going by feats then Superman is stronger. Going by some portrayals Superman is stronger. Going by some other portrayals Superman is stronger by a small margin. But you are right, the small margin is going along when he is holding back. A non holding back Superman is on a different level.
Lastly, your logic is wrong on one thing though. If a holding back Superman is stronger than WW by a mere 100 tons then he can still treat her like a rag doll and still crush her like she is a baby. If an egg can take 5lb of force without cracking then what happens if you subject the egg to 5.01lb of force? Yes, the egg will crack. So although Superman overpowers WW in comics it still doesn't mean she isn't in the vicinity of him when he is holding back. Even a 10ton strength difference is noticeable when it concerns grappling and restraining.
She was blocking and dodging his attacks right? Well she could have countered with a tiara slice across the throat earlier and then tied him up. Also she rang his ears right? Well she could have hog tied him while he was stunned. Yes Superman fought like an idiot and was handicapped. That is why I don't value comic fights in these cases (where characters aren't fighting optimally as well seen them do before). A high end Superman fighting smart and actually using all his abilities will beat WW for a majority. But WW can win a few due to a lucky counter strike that leads to a lasso win.Actually, by her own words she was barely holding back. And his mental state was a serious, serious handicap. Yet he was still trashing her. In all reality that fight just shows how superior he is over her, considering how handicapped he was and she still barely wins, and on a technicality, that she likely wouldn't have pulled-off had he not been in his state of mind. And I don't know where you're getting that she could have stopped or killed him in the first few moments of the fight. He absolutely overwhelmed her while fighting like an idiot. The real turning point for her was when she snuck-up on him and attacked the ears. Something I doubt she would've accomplished if he knew he was fighting her instead of Doomsday(someone not known for stealth or tactics). The tiara is something that can hurt him, but only if it can hit him. If he he actually knew who he was facing, he could've dodged or countered it, and that would've been that.
I believe he easily overpowered Superman before showing that he was in a different league. But don't quote me on that since this is stuff I heard. Trust me, I think the guy is strong as hell.That tells me nothing about how strong Ares is. You claimed he was stronger than Superman. Why?
YESH, next time would you please make sure there's more space between the quotes and when you respond? I've had to have trouble separating your responses. Thanks in advanced.
Originally posted by h1a8
The thing is WW has blocked barrages of light speed beams simultaneously proving that she can move her limbs and react at ftl speeds. You can't block a barrage of light speed attacks without being FTL. It's impossible. She even got examples of blocking them on both sides, front and back. Yes Superman is faster though. You are right. It's her skill and speed together that allows her to keep up in a battle with him.
Yeah, I've seen her do stuff like that, but I haven't seen anything particular for her time perceptions, nor anything beyond the blocking that really qualifies for FTL combat speed. Street Level characters with normal human speed are still capable of catching bullets, for a scaled-down comparison.
Originally posted by h1a8
Your definition of being more powerful is different than mine. More powerful is being more formidable and not just having greater power output (as in blast strength or punch strength). Power is the ability to which one can force an outcome of a fight. The greater one can affect the outcome then the more powerful they are.
I hate to use the Appeal To The Majority, but I'd say you're one of the very few who'd count skill as an actual factor in one's power. It simply isn't the case. Being more formidable doesn't mean more powerful. It's as simple as that. It might be your opinion, but to be blunt it's flat-out wrong.
Originally posted by h1a8
I wish Nver was here or a WW expert. They can give you other instances or evidence to her resistance against TP, I can't so I'll concede there.
She might, but I haven't seen any concrete examples. And I know I've seen one example of her being taken over, might have seen another, or at least another of telepathy effecting her.
Originally posted by h1a8
Again, it factors into being more powerful since it's relevant to how it forces an outcome. Again my definition is different than yours.
And your definition is still incorrect.
Originally posted by h1a8
Skill is a power, whether gained through training, magic, or etc. it's irrelevant. Power=ability to force an outcome.
OK, now the magick thing is an exception. But this is an exception, not the rule.
Originally posted by h1a8
While grappled up, it shows strength not skill. If not, then no that no amount of skill can cause you to win a wrestle if you are very much weaker. You will simply be restrained with ease.
I take it you've never trained in a grappling-based Martial Art? Strength at the least does help, and sometimes can be very important, but you're completely unaware of how important skill is. When I had first started Judo, I ranged from having trouble to being beaten in sparring sessions with girls HALF MY SIZE who were much higher ranked than I was. As I got better, I was able to out-grapple guys bigger than me, including in street fights if it went to the ground.
But you missed the point that I was saying it wasn't pure strength, and do we even know how much sunlight she got? She could've been fairly to very weak for a Daxamite. And the being partially blind couldn't have helped.
Originally posted by h1a8
Going by feats then Superman is stronger. Going by some portrayals Superman is stronger. Going by some other portrayals Superman is stronger by a small margin. But you are right, the small margin is going along when he is holding back. A non holding back Superman is on a different level.
It's established canon for Pre-DCnU that Superman holds back, and actually to the point that he subconsciously regulates his powers. Many, many times Superman has blatantly overpowered her. And he has a couple of showings where entire groups attempt to restrain him, with leverage, and struggle or even fail, one included Wonder Woman, the other at least two who are on her level. I wouldn't say so much of "portrayals" as just how much he's holding back. I mean the fight in FOR TOMORROW he showed to be her superior in strength twice while the entire fight he treated her like she wasn't even a threat. That pretty much screams he's on another level to me.
Originally posted by h1a8
Lastly, your logic is wrong on one thing though. If a holding back Superman is stronger than WW by a mere 100 tons then he can still treat her like a rag doll and still crush her like she is a baby. If an egg can take 5lb of force without cracking then what happens if you subject the egg to 5.01lb of force? Yes, the egg will crack. So although Superman overpowers WW in comics it still doesn't mean she isn't in the vicinity of him when he is holding back. Even a 10ton strength difference is noticeable when it concerns grappling and restraining.
I highly doubt that 100 ton or even 1,000 ton difference in strength would be that noticeable at her level of strength.
Originally posted by h1a8
She was blocking and dodging his attacks right? Well she could have countered with a tiara slice across the throat earlier and then tied him up. Also she rang his ears right? Well she could have hog tied him while he was stunned. Yes Superman fought like an idiot and was handicapped. That is why I don't value comic fights in these cases (where characters aren't fighting optimally as well seen them do before).
He thought he was fighting Doomsday. A larger, unintelligent brute who's not prone to fighting skillfully or using either tactics or stealth. If he really knew who he was fighting, do you think she'd have been able to pull off what she did? If he knew it was Wonder Woman, do you think he'd be standing there actively listening for her? No, I don't think he would. You think if he knew she was using her tiara, that he'd stand there and let it slice his throat? I doubt it. And he could've dodged it, or used his breath to deflect it. Maybe even catch it. But the reality is, all those things she did that gave her a chance and then the win wouldn't have worked if he had any clue what he was actually facing.
Originally posted by h1a8
A high end Superman fighting smart and actually using all his abilities will beat WW for a majority. But WW can win a few due to a lucky counter strike that leads to a lasso win.
Well, I'd say more of a "not holding back" Superman. But you mean like this?
Yeah, she'd need luck to win.
Originally posted by h1a8
I believe he easily overpowered Superman before showing that he was in a different league. But don't quote me on that since this is stuff I heard. Trust me, I think the guy is strong as hell.
Well, I'd have to see it, and know when it happened. Since Superman's had multiple power-ups over the years after THE MAN OF STEEL mini. Others have noted his increase in strength, actually.
Originally posted by a88378438
wonder woman?
i think DC silver age supergirl was far stronger than her,the SA supergirl almost as strong as SA superman,who just one sneeze destroy a solar system
Far as I know, we're not using Pre-CRISIS.
Originally posted by -K-M-
She did, but did you read the issue? She only won because after Black Widow "defeated" her (in Limbo mind you) she turned her back and was moving on and then Magik stabbed her in the back with the soulsword
I did read the issue . I'll admit that it wasn't really a stomp , but this is a street-leveller we're talking about . At least she didn't pull off a decisive win as some had predicted .
Btw , Natasha didn't actually "defeat" her , in the literal sense of the word , in Limbo , she simply forced her to teleport them both back to Earth . If she had stayed on , she would have got the Amanda Krueger treatment and worse .
Originally posted by -K-M-
Magik was on the ground struggling and was bloody. If Widow didnt turn her back she could of won which is silly.
Yup. That whole match up was silly. They just needed two girls who can speak russian so they could try their new app. At least someone told me the russian translation made it clear that magik was treating it like a game, and if she was serious that widow would die...still a silly match though especially when she beat strange in the same event. Yep handle Enchantress, Belasco, Magus, Strange and Legion in Limbo while you get your ass handed to you by the black widow...gotta love Marvel...
