Mara Jade vs. Darth Sidious

Originally posted by Master_Galen
Force Harmony would help more than BM as it is said to protect against Dark side powers, along with severing Dark side users from the Dark side. Therefore Luke gets an even bigger help from Leia than i thought.

I have to admit, despite how crappy LotF got, that was a damn good fight scene.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Read my posts again - plus (and I didn't notice this before - but the only reason Caedus really won was because of that illusion of Ben he was able to cast into her mind, and the poison he injected into her) if Caedus hadn't been able to use the illusion and poison at just the right time - Mara would have murdered him.

Its worth pointing out that Caedus shouldn't have been able to do that. A mistake was made in the text, if you look you can see that both of Jacen's arms are occupied at that point. He's grabbing her hair, holding his lightsaber and fumbling for a dart all at the same time. Unless he grew a 3rd arm he shouldn't have been able to do that.

Personally I don't think that Sidious would be thick enough to follow her into what was obviously a trap like Caedus was. For a smart guy, Jacen was ****ing dumb as hell at points.

Sidious probably would have followed through with what Jacen said at the beginning about smoking her out. Though wouldn't he be able to sense her through their Force Bond?

Back to the topic 🙂.

As I remember in the Book, where Luke first meets Mara at some point he notices how she often uses piercing strikes apart from regular slashes. While Luke couldn't guess where it is coming from, author's implication was that her style is similar to Palpatine.

While Palpatine is uber skilled with lightsaber, I didn't see any evidence of him utilizing kicks and unarmed combat. He seems to be pure fencer.
But Mara on top of lightsaber combat was trained as Assassin and as result was very versatile and excelled at survival during fight. Roughly I would say her fighting skill was something similar to Maul.

She got Apprenticed by Kyle Katarn. And it didn't take long for her to surpass him. He fell to darkside at Dromund Kaas. She came to rescue and not only resisted corruption herself but fought him and successfully fended off all his attacks, he kept retreating from her.

Her speed feats are easy to evaluate. She was fast enough to fight Caedus, who in turn was fast enough to fight all-out Luke, who was fast enough to defeat Sidious. So she is fast enough for Sidious.

As Zampano gave nice recap of her fight with Caedus, it is clear that he is much more powerful, than her, yet, she showed incredible Force defenses, she resisted and mitigated his attacks as much as possible.

Caedus is not the only example of her encountering more powerful foe, than her. Together with Luke she fought Joorus C'baot. His madness gave him enormous power. He could give wide Force lightning that Luke only partially was able to block with lightsaber, the rest was stinging his legs. C'baot channeled powerful vortex of stone rubble. He, also, excelled in mind domination and made a puppet out of Luke's clone. Moreover, Luke was heavily distracted by mental noise caused by his clone's presence, so a lot depended on Mara. Also, she was nowhere near her full potential as she didn't use Force after Emperor death for years and started regaining her connection only recently. Still, she showed herself well in the fight and was the one who slaughtered both Luuke and C'baot.

The biggest "IF" is whether she will be able to defend against Sidious' Force attacks. She barely defended against Jacen. And Sidious is even more powerful. Weaker Force users can put adequate defense against stronger ones but, if power difference is too big, then there is simply no chance. We can only guess how much more powerful Sidious' instant TK attacks are, Mara would have very hard time blocking them. Even, if she can overcome them, there is, also, Force lightning of enormous strength. She can block lightning but his one might be too strong. Even Luke didn't display blocking his lightning and instead tanked it like a Boss but Mara couldn't afford to tank it. 😄

The only his power I don't worry about is mind domination. Considering her Force bond with Luke and Ben, she's got MAD MOTHER IMMUNITY.

My conclusion is that Mara has fairly good chance against him, if she manage to reach him and engage in lightsaber combat. But, if he utilizes his offensive Force attacks as frequently as Jacen, then her chances are very small.

Originally posted by Zampanó
Though her focus is centered on her erstwhile nephew, her thoughts drift through the years back to the other major Sith Lord that threatened her galaxy. When put into a life or death combat situation, Mara considers Palpatine a precedent. The idea that she feels responsibility for his actions and her own inaction lends credence to the idea that, in her professional opinion, her ultimate set of skills and abilities would have been sufficient to kill the powerful Sith lord years in advance of his eventual demise.

Sounds more like Mara overestimated Palpatine's trust for her. In Allegiance Mara is basically terrified of Vader and admits that her skills are not enough to contend with a sith lord.

Originally posted by Zampanó
I will note that as of RotS, he had touched a lightsaber maybe three times in the past decade.

Yet he still has it in him to slaughter two "celebrated swordsmasters" before they can react, and force Mace Windu back- nearly overpowering him.

Some things never leave a person, especially when they have the force to rely on for their speed and reflexes.

Originally posted by Zampanó
Mara, the beneficiary of an older Palpatine's training, is not a mystic. Rather, she has a very particular set of skills, skills she acquired over a very long career. Skills that make her a nightmare for people like Palpatine.

Yes, Palpatine trained her, which means he is not entirely ignorant of her tricks.

Originally posted by Zampanó
Jacen endured torture and interrogation without respite for days on end without the aid of the Force. Among all of the combatants discussed here, I cannot think of anyone who even rivals this feat. And yet Mara nearly floored him with her first attack. Her tactics put one of the most durable combatants in the galaxy on the defensive without warning.

Palpatine took the full brunt of his own lightning to the face without it even weakening him- the same lightning that nearly overpowered Mace's saber defense. At the age of 17, Plagueis forced Palpatine to stand in the middle of a blizzard having his blood almost frozen, and deprived of sleep, water, and food for weeks straight. Palpatine is pretty durable himself.

Originally posted by Zampanó
This is a vital point. Sidious, in his duel with Windu, commented on the Jedi's sudden awareness of a third party's emotions (Anakin's fear). In the novelization, Sidious is as aware of Windu's thought patterns as the Jedi is himself. To fight an opponent without that awareness will be a disadvantage we have not seen him cope with before.

Being the one to train Mara Jade since childhood, Palpatine will have the advantage of knowing more about her fighting style than Jacen did.

Originally posted by Zampanó
Mara is all about generating disadvantages. Beyond the surprise attack, she was very specific about the terrain in which she would fight Jacen. She set traps, only engaging on her own terms. Specifically, close quarters combat, designed to limit his opportunity to use the Force, was the order of the day. Even when battered by the far-more-powerful Force titan with relatively obscure tactics ("Force jolt her spine"😉 she deflects everything and takes the fight to the ground. Palpatine would not last nearly long as did Caedus if the fight got to the point where "it was a brawl."

Palpatine wouldn't last nearly as long? What exactly brings you to this conclusion?

Before I get into Palpatine's speed, skill, and reflexes that make him a more lethal fighter than Jacen, I want to ask you this: what makes you think Mara can survive a lightning attack from Sidious? Palpatine's lightning is so intense that it can reduce a giant sith worm to ash (Sithisis), powerful enough to KO Yoda, and strong enough to nearly overpower Windu's saber defense and even blast Yoda's saber right out of his hands.

This fight ends with Mara's being reduced to charred bones, IMO.

Zamp, the situation you describe and argument you present are convincing—but both deviate from what you originally claimed in the other thread:

[quote]Zampanó
Bloodlusted, prepped Mara does not cede the advantages of being "more vicious, more faster[sic], and far more powerful" than Sidious.

Zampanó
More Vicious: (See cave fight)
More Faster: (See cave fight)
More Powerful: Given that this limits Palpatine to RotS feats, he's basically got Sithisis and RotS to draw from. Mara has her 3x force power bubble, cross-galaxy awareness (routine as a hand as well as her link w/Ben) and the whole manhandling a Skywalker descendant charism

Whereas in this thread, you conceded that Mara's abilities are not on par with the Emperor's and that she couldn't beat him in an arena-type fight. From your argument, it seems like you believe her victory over Sidious would be highly conditional and rely on specific circumstances. I shouldn't speak for Gideon, but I'd wager that he would not disagree with the idea that Mara could beat Palpatine under certain circumstances.

Since he's banned, though, I'd be happy to play the Devil's advocate and argue on his behalf as an olive branch for my long rivalry with him.

Essentially, I believe that replacing Caedus with (almost) any other character during the Duel in the Kavan Caves would translate to a win for Mara. Color me impressed.

I'm willing to extend that to arena fights as well, but on a much more hesitant basis. When I've encountered resistance by equating Mara with Zannah, you understand why I might be hesitant to put her in a room with Sidious.

Her performance against Caedus is impressive, but I’m hesitant to join you in the extent of your awe of it. Much of Mara’s effectiveness as a fighter owes not to her years as a Jedi but to the skills she acquired as the Emperor’s Hand. She is unquestionably a fine duelist and masterly Force user, but it is the combination of her cleverness, martial arts training, and commendable use of preparation to manipulate the environment. The problem here is that Sidious is the source of that skill and, logically, would not be as susceptible to it as Caedus would be.

Your avatar doesn't match

Didn't want it too be too confusing. Besides, I like mine better.

The problem here is that Sidious is the source of that skill and, logically, would not be as susceptible to it as Caedus would be.

Numerous sources credit Palpatine as being responsible for Mara's training. While he clearly supervised her training and provided instruction (as he did with Maul), no one insinuated he was down doing one handed pushups beside her like Jack Palance.

Additionally, The Force Unleashed shows that Sidious carried a lightsaber on his person even as late as 2 BBY. The fact that they didn't know each other means that they were given orders separately, not that he never saw them.

Allegiance states that Mara was trained personally by Palpatine.

Got an excerpt/page number/preferably both?
Page 145 of The Essential Guide to the Force corroborates that Mara was trained in combat arts alongside Imperial Royal Guardsmen (which Palpatine and Vader are both known to personally observe on many occasions) but Palpatine himself "personally" trained her in the ways of the Force.

Akey 🙂

Page 38:

"Mara was the Emperor's Hand, recruited and trained personally by him, and he trusted her instincts"

Could have been refering to her force training. It didn't specify.

I doubt very much that Palpatine would have the time to teach so many disciples in lightsaber technique on top of everything else they needed to learn to function as effective, elite agents--on top of everything else he was involved in. Something as rudimentary as sword fighting would be better left to other disciples--he had plenty of them. Palpatine would prefer having direct involvement in their Force tutelage--better means of control and influence.

tl;dr

Mara solos.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
tl;dr

Marka solos.

fixed

Yeah, who do you think decides the outcome of battles? GodRagnos alone decides that. And he possesses Mara before she owns Sidious.