Mara Jade vs. Darth Sidious

Plus, I am fairly certain most of that stuff about Kyle is non-canon, simply due to the fact that the Force Powers you can choose are never canon unless shown outside it. He uses Lightning, Grip, etc. But Destruction and that Spear one (I read it, forgot it, don't care to re-read just for the name) have not been shown without the player in control, or having picked that power previously.

Tell me, who was it that said that Jerec was equal to Vader? Because he isn't. Evar. And he hadn't absorbed the full power and was washed out because of it.

You obviously underestimate Kenobi, when you are the guy who is called THE master of a form, no equal at all, not even the 800 something year old Grand Master of the Jedi Order, then you have some crazy skills with a lightsaber.

Source where the rubble weighs tons?

You said earlier yourself Desann had not yet absorbed the power of the Valley, or he would be "eradicating star systems with a whisper"

Methinks you just think Kyle is hawt and want him to win.

I said Mara wins earlier, just FYI. She is gonna get beaten up pretty badly, but she wins.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Exterminate star-- whaaat?

"He searches for the location of a sacred place, the Valley of the Jedi. The Force of thousands of Jedi is trapped here. If Jerec captures this power, he will be a creature such as the universe has never seen. A supernova of stars in a fleeting thought—the eradication of life from a star system in a whisper—will be within his power."
- Qu Rahn as a Force ghost to Kyle Katarn

I'm surprised you're arguing this, if you don't even know the material.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien

No, he fled from Luke.

Because he had Hethrir's army to prepare - and the Power of the Valley of the Jedi, waiting for him.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien

"The Universe"? Again--whaaaat?

Play Jedi Knight: Dark Forces II - study up. 😉

Originally posted by Lord Lucien

No, he ran away after failing to do Luke any harm.

Except school him in lightsaber combat, and then bury his ass under some debris.

Which Luke waited convienently until Desann was gone, to lift off of him. 😛

Luke: (Speaking from under the pile of debris)

"Is he...gone..?"

Kyle: "Yeah, the bastard got away - don't worry Luke, we'll catch up to him soon."

Luke: (Luke throws the debris off of himself and stands up, a pseudo-smug look on his face)

"Kyle, be careful about Desann - I tried to convince him to turn back to the Light, but he was willfull and escaped."

Kyle: (Frowning) "Funny, I didn't hear you say any such thing to him when you two fought - you just kept diving at him and stabbing at him, and then he deflected your attacks and buried you."

Luke: "You..did?"

Kyle: "Yeah, Luke, I was watching the whole duel."

Luke: (Luke's face drains of color) "Oh, well, I felt sorry for him, and.."

Kyle: (Kyle's voice, concerned) "-Luke, if Desann manages to absorb all that Power - he can kill everyone like, the entire Universe, and we won't be able to stop him then."

Luke: (Luke's voice wavering, as he casts his eyes downward) "Yeah..yeah..I know..":

Kyle: (His eyes narrowing) "Gods.. you're afraid of him, aren't you, Luke?"

Luke: (Luke's face turns red) "No. No. I just felt sorry for him."

Kyle: (Kyle's eyes roll and narrow again) "Luke, the Valley of the Souls..!?

Luke: "Okay, okay, you know what? You just..go get Desann, and I'll rally the others, and we'll take care of this.."

(Luke turns around and starts to walk away)

Kyle: "Luke.."

(Luke says, his back to Kyle, still walking away)

"We'll take care of this!"

(Luke waves a hand in dismissal, back turned)

Kyle: (Sighs and shrugs)

Luke falling to Pre-Valley Desann.

Luke fought Desann after he absorbed Valley of the Jedi, here is conversation between Luke and Kyle proving that:
3:00
YouTube video

Also, he lost to Caedus not because he needed to look after others but because Caedus smashed airspeeder into his back.

You know, one time I was playing, when that cutscene ran, Desann died. No joke.

However, its a bug. I just wanted to say so 😛

Originally posted by Battlemaster
"He searches for the location of a sacred place, the Valley of the Jedi. The Force of thousands of Jedi is trapped here. If Jerec captures this power, he will be a creature such as the universe has never seen. A supernova of stars in a fleeting thought—the eradication of life from a star system in a whisper—will be within his power."
- Qu Rahn as a Force ghost to Kyle Katarn

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Because he had Hethrir's army to prepare - and the Power of the Valley of the Jedi, waiting for him.

Either Desann's the most retarded being in the galaxy, or he was running away.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Play [B]Jedi Knight: Dark Forces II - study up. 😉[/B]

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Except school him in lightsaber combat, and then bury his ass under some debris.

Which Luke waited convienently until Desann was gone, to lift off of him. 😛

Originally posted by Battlemaster
"He searches for the location of a sacred place, the Valley of the Jedi. The Force of thousands of Jedi is trapped here. If Jerec captures this power, he will be a creature such as the universe has never seen. A supernova of stars in a fleeting thought—the eradication of life from a star system in a whisper—will be within his power."
- Qu Rahn as a Force ghost to Kyle Katarn

I'm surprised you're arguing this, if you don't even know the material.

Because he had Hethrir's army to prepare - and the Power of the Valley of the Jedi, waiting for him.

Originally posted by Arhael
It's not like I want to argue about Kyle vs Katarn. But nevertheless I will ones again point out at your lack of knowledge.

LOL. Kyle vs Katarn?

Is that like Kramer vs Kramer? 😆

And I'd hate to point out your lack of knowledge (which is considerable) but I think you mean "once", not "ones". 😛

They're phonetically similar, I know.

Originally posted by Arhael

Luke fought Desann after he absorbed Valley of the Jedi, here is conversation between Luke and Kyle proving that:
3:00
YouTube video

Right - and Luke implies that Desann was too powerful to stop and that Kyle should not try to fight him alone.

So Luke fought Valley-Desann, and lost, again.

Originally posted by Arhael

Also, he lost to Caedus not because he needed to look after others but because Caedus smashed airspeeder into his back.

Nope - Kyle was looking out for the inexperienced Jedi in his group and was supposed to plant a tracking device on Caedus, that's all.
So he was just following a plan.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Right - and Luke implies that Desann was too powerful to stop and that Kyle should not try to fight him alone.

So Luke fought Valley-Desann, and lost, again.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
So... you took a quote by Qu Rahn, about Jerec, and applied to what Desann likely wants. And used that as a basis of Desann's abilities as seen against Luke and Kyle?

Like Jerec, Desann didn't have time to absorb all of the Valley's Power.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien

And he had the founder and leader of the Jedi Knights literally under a pile of rubble in front him. And he ran away.

Either Desann's the most retarded being in the galaxy, or he was running away.

Yeah, being struck by falling piles of rubble tends to kill people. Luke got lucky, as we saw. 😛

Originally posted by Lord Lucien

To learn about Desann? Yeah, for that I'll put in my copy of Jedi Outcast.

And Jedi Knight: Dark Forces II while you're at it. 😉

That way you'll know what you're talking about when you try to argue with me. 😆

Originally posted by Lord Lucien

School him in lightsaber combat? Whaaat? Have you seen that little cutscene? It's randomly generated every time, but unless you like to count the game's mechanics of lightsabers slicing through bodies and not hurting them... then Desann did no schooling. He leaped from the catwalk, pushed Luke, brought the platform down, laughed, and ran. Instead of, say, being horribly crushed from a falling platform, Luke jumps over and shakes his head as Desann runs away. If your goal is to eliminate the Jedi, perhaps you should start with their leader whom you are literally fighting first. Unless of course, all your best efforts at surprise attack, lightsaber combat, Force pushing, and platform dropping fail.

- Yeah, to go to the Valley of the Jedi and become an omnipotent being.

The only person who failed was Luke - when he was too afraid to face Desann in a battle to the death - who could do untold things to the Universe if he absorbed all of the Valley's power.

It's like a little child playing Russian Roulette.

Originally posted by Pwned
Plus, I am fairly certain most of that stuff about Kyle is non-canon, simply due to the fact that the Force Powers you can choose are never canon unless shown outside it. He uses Lightning, Grip, etc. But Destruction and that Spear one (I read it, forgot it, don't care to re-read just for the name) have not been shown without the player in control, or having picked that power previously.

Powers used in cutscenes are Canon. Kyle used Destruction in Mysteries of the Sith and he used Spear of Midnight Black in the Dark Forces Novel.

Originally posted by Pwned

Tell me, who was it that said that Jerec was equal to Vader? Because he isn't. Evar. And he hadn't absorbed the full power and was washed out because of it.

Tell me, why haven't you done your research?

The Dark Forces II manual states it.

Originally posted by Pwned

You obviously underestimate Kenobi, when you are the guy who is called THE master of a form, no equal at all, not even the 800 something year old Grand Master of the Jedi Order, then you have some crazy skills with a lightsaber.

You obviously underestimate Katarn - go back up and read my post about that, again.

Originally posted by Pwned

Source where the rubble weighs tons?

Your eyes should be sufficient for the task.

Also, refer to the picture of Katarn holding it up.

Originally posted by Pwned

You said earlier yourself Desann had not yet absorbed the power of the Valley, or he would be "eradicating star systems with a whisper"
Methinks you just think Kyle is hawt and want him to win.

That's the danger - if Desann gets there and has his chance to absorb all the Power - it's game over for the Universe.

Originally posted by Pwned

I said Mara wins earlier, just FYI. She is gonna get beaten up pretty badly, but she wins.

Yup, she does. 😛

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
He told Kyle not to fight him alone. Are you spotting a problem here? Kyle is too weak to take on Desann, but less than a day later is killing an even more powerful Desann? Either Kyle is Goku, or Desann just isn't that powerful. Which would explain why Desann felt the need to sneak attack Luke and still run away from him.

No, Katarn was just developing fast, like he did against the 7 Dark Jedi (see: Jedi Knight: Dark Forces II) and while Luke couldn't handle Desann in a skirmish, and was too afraid to follow Desann - Kyle had progressed far enough to take Desann on and save the Universe.

Originally posted by Battlemaster

Nope - Kyle was looking out for the inexperienced Jedi in his group and was supposed to plant a tracking device on Caedus, that's all.
So he was just following a plan.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Like Jerec, Desann didn't have time to absorb all of the Valley's Power.

If you don't accept real evidence here is blatant statement from wookieepedia:
"Thinking that his partner was dead, Kyle thirsted for revenge and in consequence traveled to the Valley of the Jedi, to regain his connection to the Force; but Desann was tracking him. The Dark Jedi brought his band of Empire Youth students with him to absorb the Valley's power, forming an army of dark warriors called the Reborn. He also took with him a small portion of his stormtroopers, and they became shadowtroopers, Force-sensitive soldiers armed with lightsabers and encased in cortosis armor enhanced by Artusian crystals."

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Like Jerec, Desann didn't have time to absorb all of the Valley's Power.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Yeah, being struck by falling piles of rubble tends to kill people. Luke got lucky, as we saw. 😛

Originally posted by Battlemaster
And [B]Jedi Knight: Dark Forces II while you're at it. 😉

That way you'll know what you're talking about when you try to argue with me. 😆 [/B]

Originally posted by Battlemaster
- Yeah, to go to the Valley of the Jedi and become an omnipotent being.

The only person who failed was Luke - when he was too afraid to face Desann in a battle to the death - who could do untold things to the Universe if he absorbed all of the Valley's power.

It's like a little child playing Russian Roulette.

Later, Desann ambushed Luke (the leader of the Jedi Knights--the people he's intent on wiping out), and runs away after a failed attempt to kill him. And Desann is more powerful? The same Desann who had less than year's training under Luke and Hethrir, who had full access to the Valley, who (along with all his minions) was routed by Luke alone... this is the same Desann who's more powerful than Luke? The same Luke whom he never defeated, and whom he ran away from?

Twice?

Not to mention Desann had enough time to make an army. Why would he need an army if he could become all powerful? Simple answer: He can't.

You never answered my question. Give me a source. You always want a specific statement of things, instead of common sense or other things.

Also, prove Kyle could use those powers after he lost his connection to the Force. He lost all knowledge of how to use it somehow, and so he had to learn it all again.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
You know this? How?

More like, how do you not know this? 😛

Seriously, play Dark Forces II - it's a fun game. 😉

Originally posted by Lord Lucien

Apparently. So did Obi-Wan. Why didn't Desann kill the Jedi Knights' leader right then and there, if he was so superior?

Probably because he thought the heavy rubble had kind of, you know, crushed him?

Why didn't Luke just knock Desann out mercifully with his TK, if he's so superior?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien

You're kind of a dunce. Desann is not in Dark Forces, he's in Jedi Outcast. I'm arguing with you about Desann, so let's stick to his game. Remember: this is Desann. Not Jerec.

I'm a dunce? 😆

You're trying to argue with me about material, the most important of which is located within a game I've played and you haven't, so you keep asking dumb questions, leading me further and further to believe an argument with you, uneducated, at this point would be pointless.

If you weren't such a dunce, you'd pay attention to the fact that Jerec and Desann both sought the same thing, and were both empowered by the Valley of the Jedi. So in that aspect, they have much relevance with each other.

I say, you go play that game (Dark Forces II) and perhaps read the novel, and then come back and try to argue with me. 😄

Originally posted by Lord Lucien

So... Luke single handedly scatters Desann and his Reborn forces... Desann flees. And Luke is "afraid"?

"Scatters" not kills - and you notice Luke gets away without stopping, capturing or killing Desann - Yeah, he was afraid and cautious - just like he told Kyle to be.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien

Later, Desann ambushed Luke (the leader of the Jedi Knights--the people he's intent on wiping out), and runs away after a failed attempt to kill him. And Desann is more powerful? The same Desann who had less than year's training under Luke and Hethrir,

Yeah, and deflected Luke's attacks, trashed him, and left to claim his prize at the Valley

Originally posted by Lord Lucien

who had full access to the Valley

But didn't absorb all it's power, yet.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien

, who (along with all his minions) was routed by Luke alone...

"Routed"? He was alive and fully healthy to face his true opponant at the end of the game.

We didn't see Luke fight Desann or his minions - just Luke talking out of his ass about it.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien

this is the same Desann who's more powerful than Luke? The same Luke whom Desann defeated twice, and whom he ran away from after trashing Luke under a pile of rubble that usually kills people?

Fixed. 😊

Originally posted by Pwned
Not to mention Desann had enough time to make an army. Why would he need an army if he could become all powerful? Simple answer: He can't.

Jedi Master Qu Rahn says differently. 😉

Also, at the time he was devoted to Hethrir's cause, and would need an army to keep the New Republic forces at bay to buy him time to finish absorbing the Valley's power.

Originally posted by Pwned

You never answered my question. Give me a source. You always want a specific statement of things, instead of common sense or other things.

Use the little white orbs in your head and look at the pictures.

And the only Debators around here who give me common sense replies for their arguments are Nephthys and Stealth Moose.

Originally posted by Pwned

Also, prove Kyle could use those powers after he lost his connection to the Force. He lost all knowledge of how to use it somehow, and so he had to learn it all again.

Not knowledge - his connection with it just lapsed.

Those powers are techniques, so he would still have them after he regained his connection.

Wrong. He, at the brink of the dark side, would have used them. Your logic is flawed.

He had time to absorb it. Don't say differently, because he did. He empowered a friggin army. And if you are all powerful, you don't need an army. Meaning Qu Rahn was either wrong or exaggerating. In universe sources are flawed, and such statements can't be taken as absolute, irrevocable truth due to their unreliability.

Seriously, Lucien has a point, you insult people, but you tend to fit the insults better than other people. You do nothing but, "Oh no, thats not what happened because of a game this character was not even in. Oh, and being under rubble but unharmed is a loss. LULZ"

Originally posted by Battlemaster
More like, how do you not know this? 😛

Seriously, play Dark Forces II - it's a fun game. 😉

Okay... I'm giving this one more go.

How do you know Desann couldn't absorb all the Valley's power? How do you know Desann hadn't already basked in the Valley's power? And how do you know Luke didn't do to him what Kyle did to Jerec? Actually answer this time.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Probably because he thought the heavy rubble had kind of, you know, crushed him?

Why didn't Luke just knock Desann out mercifully with his TK, if he's so superior?

Originally posted by Battlemaster
I'm a dunce? 😆

You're trying to argue with me about material, the most important of which is located within a game I've played and you haven't, so you keep asking dumb questions, leading me further and further to believe an argument with you, uneducated, at this point would be pointless.

If you weren't such a dunce, you'd pay attention to the fact that Jerec and Desann both sought the same thing, and were both empowered by the Valley of the Jedi. So in that aspect, they have much relevance with each other.

I say, you go play that game (Dark Forces II) and perhaps read the novel, and then come back and try to argue with me. 😄

Originally posted by Battlemaster
"Scatters" not kills - and you notice Luke gets away without stopping, capturing or killing Desann - Yeah, he was afraid and cautious - just like he told Kyle to be.

But then... when Desann is away from the Valley, he is suddenly able to "defeat" Luke?

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Yeah, and deflected Luke's attacks, trashed him, and left to claim his prize at the Valley

Please try to keep up. After Desann ran from Luke, he did not go to "claim his prize at the Valley." He ran to the Doomgiver and left for the Jedi Praxeum. If you're not aware, the Valley is on Ruusan, and the Praxeum is on Yavin IV. Which doesn't change the fact that he ran away from the leader of the organization he was bent on wiping out. That's either a contradiction in character motive, or an inferiority in power.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
But didn't absorb all it's power, yet.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
"Routed"? He was alive and fully healthy to face his true opponant at the end of the game.

We didn't see Luke fight Desann or his minions - just Luke talking out of his ass about it.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien as amended by Battlemaster
this is the same Desann who's more powerful than Luke? The same Luke whom Desann defeated twice, and whom he ran away from after trashing Luke under a pile of rubble that usually kills people?

Okay... I already know your position on Desann "defeating" Luke at Lenico. But how are you coming to the conclusion that Luke lost to him at Ruusan? He and his forces were scattered... so you translate that to Desann defeat Luke?

*sigh*

A.) You're demonstrably making stuff up--talking out of your ass, as you put it.
B.) Even if that were canon, that still means Desann is retarded--defeating your enemy, leaving him alive, abandoning your source of power. That's retarded.

And you're a dunce.

and while Luke couldn't handle Desann in a skirmish, and was too afraid to follow Desann

But didn't absorb all it's power, yet.

Yeah, and deflected Luke's attacks, trashed him, and left to claim his prize at the Valley

Check this out. It's advisable before you give out more nonsense.
YouTube video
On the video Luke essentially claims that he drove Desann and his crew away from the Valley of the Jedi.
We have no idea how many troops Desann managed to empower before we got there. It good be dozens but it could be thousands... - This is prove that Desann had enough time not only to absorb the power himself but to empower a lot of others.

Here is video of their duel and Luke's conversation with Kyle after:
YouTube video
Luke says that he was attacked by surprise: "I never felt him coming". And that "He's escaped onto a ship".
"We need to destroy the ship before Desann and his army reaches its target... whatever it is."
Luke never tasked Kyle to handle Desann personally. Luke didn't know, where the ship was heading. In fact it was heading to Yavin IV. Kyle was there before Luke and that's why it was him, who defeated Desann.

I like how even Luke described it as an "escape". I've never heard of someone escaping from their victory. Unless of course they were retarded. Or never had a victory.