Mara Jade vs. Darth Sidious

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I doubt very much that Palpatine would have the time to teach so many disciples in lightsaber technique on top of everything else they needed to learn to function as effective, elite agents--on top of everything else he was involved in. Something as rudimentary as sword fighting would be better left to other disciples--he had plenty of them. Palpatine would prefer having direct involvement in their Force tutelage--better means of control and influence.

Sidious is pretty much the poster Sith for superb time management.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I have to admit, despite how crappy LotF got, that was a damn good fight scene.

Its worth pointing out that Caedus shouldn't have been able to do that. A mistake was made in the text, if you look you can see that both of Jacen's arms are occupied at that point. He's grabbing her hair, holding his lightsaber and fumbling for a dart all at the same time. Unless he grew a 3rd arm he shouldn't have been able to do that.

Caedus had very rare control over his body, thanks to Vergere, and had developed a very prehensile Penis - which he used to grab and utilize the dart.

Talk about wanking a victory. 🙄

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

Being the one to train Mara Jade since childhood, Palpatine will have the advantage of knowing more about her fighting style than Jacen did.

In the Thrawn Trilogy, Mara states that she had held a lightsaber, perhaps a handful of times in her entire life, let alone use one.

Palpatine would not have likely trained her in more than basic techniques and such.

If you want to talk people who trained her and really know her Jedi fighting skills - that would be Kyle Katarn.

Kyle was the one who truly taught Mara how to develop her swordsmanship with a lightsaber, and was the one who spearheaded her Jedi training.

Palpatine knew Mara Jade - the young girl and Emperor's Hand who fought more with a vibroblade and blaster than anything else.

Palpatine does not and has never known Mara Jade - the Jedi Master who is one of the finest swordsbeings of the Order, who managed to defeat a Dark Kyle Katarn who was on par with Darth Vader, at an early age - and who later destroyed countless deadly Vong warriors, and who is also on par with the man who could kill RotS Palpatine himself - Caedus.

Jacen knows Mara the Jedi Master - Palpatine, does not.

Eh, I am not quite sure you could put Caedus on par with Palpatine. Just because he is insanely powerful, doesn't mean he can compare with teh M0st Powahfullll S1th Lord ta evar exist EVAR!1!11!!!1!1!11!1!

The only similarity of Mara's style to Sidious is piercing strikes. But, if we compare her fights and his there is nothing similar.
We see Sidious utilizing pure lightsaber combat against Windu and company and Luke. With Yoda it was either lightsaber or Force attacks.
But Mara most of the time goes for body shots and starts grappling opponent. In fight with Alima Rar she finished her with punch in her throat (when Luke fought Lumya). With Lumya she dodged her whip and went for wrestling, headbutt into metal jaw was a fail though. 😄 And with Caedus same thing. She crippled him with a kick into his knee and they ended up grappling.
In NJO, when Katarn was first mentioned, he was described as hand-to-hand combat expert. Maybe that's where the style difference comes from.
Considering that Mara trained together with Katarn, Corran Horn and Luke, she is a solid challenge for Sidious in combat with no offensive Force attacks.

Palpatine's superhuman strength is alluded to and displayed in Darth Plagueis: his father, Cosinga, remarked that young!Palpatine used to fight him off when he'd tried to swaddle him. Then, as an untrained Force adept at age 17, he manhandles and hurls one of his father's bodyguards across the passenger bay of their luxury ship. Later, during his abduction by Santhe security guards, Palpatine prepares to tear out their throats barehanded—but before he can do so, he's rescued by Plagueis's Sun Guards. His pain threshold is similarly immense, considering how he's able to tank a sustained volley of Force lightning to the face whereas attacks of lesser duration were enough to immobilize Luke with pain. Using the Force to enhance physical prowess is an elementary skill of trained Force users and has been put on display more than once by a number of adepts across a multitude of eras. Palpatine's Force training is more extensive than Mara as is his natural power. While he may not possess her skill in unarmed combat, there's no reason to conclude that her physical strength exceeds his with the Force at his command—particularly when you consider the quality and caliber of Palpatine's opponents over the years: Plagueis, Maul, and Windu, all of whom exhibit physical prowess in vast excess of what is produced by Mara Jade.

With respect to Palpatine being unfamiliar with Jedi!Mara, the entire theme in Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice with respect to Mara is that she set aside her guise as Jedi Master to return to her role as the Emperor's Hand and it is in that mentality that she faced and nearly killed Caedus.

Though, at this point, it doesn't matter since ROTS Sidious has not yet supervised her training.

Originally posted by Stea1th Moose
Palpatine's superhuman strength is alluded to and displayed in Darth Plagueis: his father, Cosinga, remarked that young!Palpatine used to fight him off when he'd tried to swaddle him. Then, as an untrained Force adept at age 17, he manhandles and hurls one of his father's bodyguards across the passenger bay of their luxury ship. Later, during his abduction by Santhe security guards, Palpatine prepares to tear out their throats barehanded—but before he can do so, he's rescued by Plagueis's Sun Guards.

Damn. And Palpatine's 5'1 and weighs a hundred pounds dripping wet.whip

I noticed Palpy and Luke are similar in size, too.. Hm.

They short. 😛

Edit: Yep, just checked - Luke is 5'7 and Palpatine is 5'8.

Never thought Palpatine is taller, hmm.

I guess because he's sort of hunched over, most of the time.

Wow, they're both tiny.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
In the Thrawn Trilogy, Mara states that she had held a lightsaber, perhaps a handful of times in her entire life, let alone use one.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
She uses one extensively to the point where it's essentially her primary weapon (she even duels with Vader), in Allegiance, so at best the Thrawn trilogy, being 20 years old, would be overruled in this situation.

Well, that book is all one adventure, right?

There was a Canon short-story in the book Tales from the New Republic, in which Pre-Jedi Mara essentially has to infiltrate an underground criminal hideout, and the only weapon she realizes she can sneak in, is a lightsaber.

If I remember correctly, she conceals it in a vase and disguises herself, and then later in the story when she's been found out and mobbed by dozens of thugs, she breaks open the case, pulls the lightsaber out - and proceeds to kill them by the droves.

She also states in that story how little use or practice she had ever had with a lightsaber, and through talent and determination manages to still slaughter the groups of criminals.

So, I think the Thrawn Trilogy still holds - Mara is just highly talented with a lightsaber.

Which would make sense, given her later battles.

(Keep in mind, in the Thrawn Trilogy, she still managed to defeat Luke's Clone in a lightsaber duel)

Also, keep in mind - when Mara dueled Jacen she had a reach disadvantage (and reach accounts for alot) when she used a Vibroblade and Shoto, whereas Jacen was wielding a full-length lightsaber.

Jacen had the reach-advantage there - and she still managed to close the distance with him, time and time again.

So she's got sick talent and adaptability.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
She uses one extensively to the point where it's essentially her primary weapon (she even duels with Vader), in Allegiance, so at best the Thrawn trilogy, being 20 years old, would be overruled in this situation.

And in Choices of One she uses one as well and the narration remarks on her extraordinary skill. It seems Zahn has overwritten his previous work.

His pain threshold is similarly immense, considering how he's able to tank a sustained volley of Force lightning to the face whereas attacks of lesser duration were enough to immobilize Luke with pain.

While he may not possess her skill in unarmed combat, there's no reason to conclude that her physical strength exceeds his with the Force at his command

Originally posted by ares834
And in Choices of One she uses one as well and the narration remarks on her extraordinary skill. It seems Zahn has overwritten his previous work.

What's the direct quote? It could just be referring to her incredible talent.

Originally posted by Pwned
Yeah, Kyle may be good, but he's not great. All in all, you can compare him to Kenobi, just without the saber skills.

Kyle Katarn way back in Jedi Knight: Dark Forces II had power and swordsmanship on par with Kenobi, when he defeated a deadly Dark Jedi named Jerec, who had power that rivaled Vader's - and he defeated this man, after Jerec had become Empowered by the Valley of the Jedi.

Flash forward 25+ years and thousands of deadly opponants later, including hundreds of deadly Dark Jedi (a Desann more powerful than the one Luke failed to defeat) and Sith Spirits, and you have a warrior more deeply-versed in the Jedi arts than most on the Council.

His light skirmish with Caedus can't even be counted as a defeat, because Kyle had to focus on protecting the weaker and experienced Jedi with him and Kyle's mission was merely to use a diversion to plant a homing-device on Caedus.

Kyle was Mara Jade's greatest teacher - and they learned alot from each other (see: Mysteries of the Sith)
Kyle's Force abilities early on, could handle those of a Valley-empowered Jerec (whose destructive capabilities went beyond Vader's) and Kyle became adept in rare and powerful Force techniques such as Destruction (Mysteries of the Sith) and even rarer such as Spear of Midnight Black.

When he became the Temple Battlemaster, his lightsaber skills were constantly honed, and he would go on to instruct hundreds of students at the Temple.

In terms of swordsmanship, current Kyle is far beyond Kenobi, and his Force powers are likely somewhat stronger than Mara Jade's - all in all, he's about at DE Luke's level - if not somewhat stronger.

Originally posted by Pwned

However, I think that if Mara goes at this the same way she went after Caedus, she has a chance. Caedus just barely got that dart in time, and he is also physically stronger than Sidious. Does Mara get any prep time?

Zampano is correct here. Sidious does die.

His overall destructive abilities in the Force may be greater - but Mara is highly adaptive and able to close distance, allowing her to repel such attacks.

I think she beats him in a fight no closer than Sidious's earlier duel with Mace.

Are people still arguing that Desann "defeated" Luke?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Are people still arguing that Desann "defeated" Luke?

The guy that wanted all the power of the Valley, and could exterminate Star Systems within a whisper with it? That Desann?

Yeah, he did. He defeated Luke.

- Unless Luke valued Desann's life, over that of the Universe.

Or, they could have been secretly lovers?

But yeah. Desann beat him.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Are people still arguing that Desann "defeated" Luke?

At least momentarally imo.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
The guy that wanted all the power of the Valley, and could exterminate Star Systems within a whisper with it? That Desann?

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Yeah, he did. He defeated Luke.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
- Unless Luke valued Desann's life, over that of the Universe.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
But yeah. Desann beat him.