Originally posted by DamborgsonLikely because Kuurth didn't have a force-field like classic Juggs did. However, I still don't believe that a character demonstrating the ability to breach Kuurth's armor equates to that same character being able to damage Kuurth's physical being. Just MO.
yep. Seems more than obvious that he wasn't at his classic "take a godblast levels."
Originally posted by Galan007Hear me out 😛
You think he was, what?
The writer said he was writing a classic unstoppable Juggernaut story.
Also his unstoppability enchantment, which had been gone while he was in the Thunderbolts, was back in full effect.
We learned in the Thunderbolts from Satanna that Cain could call upon the power of Cyttorak anytime he wanted to kick Kuurth out of his body.
We also learn that until Cyttorak was told by Magik that Cain was Serpent possessed he was very happy with Cain.
So we have the writer saying this is a classic Juggernaut tale, him using one of his full powered effects, and we know that Cain wasn't cut off from his power source anymore.
I think that makes a strong case that Cain was in fact in full powered Juggernaut form.
You could make arguments for the opposite being true and I can respect it, but the above are the reasons why I feel that was classic fully Juggered up Cain walking around.
^ I get what you're saying, but Juggs certainly didn't have a force-field in place... Unless you think that Colossus (and co.) can physically break through his FF, and shred his armor/helmet--or that Thor can breach his FF without first invoking some sort of enchantment..?
Imo, Kuurth was written in a classic light, but sans a force-field. If his FF was in play, it was watered down to laughable levels.
Originally posted by ODG
FP Kuurth demonstrated greater durability feats than classic Juggernaut did in several areas. He was simply more durable than classic Juggernaut. Which is the only rational conclusion since it was the Serpent's power on top of Cytorrak's [b]full blessing as explicitly revealed in Colossus' and Illyana's conversation with Cytorrak. Even should you disregard how Cytorrak treated FP Kuurth, depowered Juggernaut wasn't literally unstoppable by any measure in his many appearances. So your assumption that this was depowered Juggernaut's + Serpent's power is simply false. I'll chalk it up to you just never having read any depowered Juggernaut appearances.[/B]
Originally posted by Galan007It's not like in classic levels he was always walking around with a forcefield on. Classic Juggernaut has had his helmet removed before by the mutants.
^ I get what you're saying, but Juggs certainly didn't have a force-field in place... Unless you think that Colossus (and co.) can physically break through his FF, and shred his armor/helmet--or that Thor can breach his FF without first invoking some sort of enchantment..?Imo, Kuurth was written in a classic light, but sans a force-field. If his FF was in play, it was watered down to laughable levels.
I mean he fought Nightmare there was never a mention of it.
Surviving Slashes from Wolverine without a scratch no FF mentioned.
When he went on his rampage through the other Exempalrs he never used his FF.
I would say besides a few comics(Thor) most of the time Cain was always written as just as durable without a forcefield as with one.
I know there is a debate on the forums as to exactly how durable Cain is with or without his FF, I think there are plenty of instances of Cain surviving devastating attacks without for me to think he is just as durable with it as without it, but in the context of whether or not Cain being at his classic levels is dependent on him having his FF up?
I think we've seen enough of classic Juggernaut to know that just because he isn't using a FF does not mean he isn't at his classic levels. In fact in terms of which powers I would use to judge whether or not he is at classic, the FF is close to the bottom.
Originally posted by NewjakI think we are on the same page here.
It's not like in classic levels he was always walking around with a forcefield on. Classic Juggernaut has had his helmet removed before by the mutants.I mean he fought Nightmare there was never a mention of it.
Surviving Slashes from Wolverine without a scratch no FF mentioned.
When he went on his rampage through the other Exempalrs he never used his FF.
I would say besides a few comics(Thor) most of the time Cain was always written as just as durable without a forcefield as with one.
I know there is a debate on the forums as to exactly how durable Cain is with or without his FF, I think there are plenty of instances of Cain surviving devastating attacks without for me to think he is just as durable with it as without it, but in the context of whether or not Cain being at his classic levels is dependent on him having his FF up?
I think we've seen enough of classic Juggernaut to know that just because he isn't using a FF does not mean he isn't at his classic levels. In fact in terms of which powers I would use to judge whether or not he is at classic, the FF is close to the bottom.
I thought you were saying that Kuurth possessed a FF--which he clearly did not. I think we both agree on that. I also agree that his unstoppability power was in full effect--he was un-BFRable, and could literally manifest energy bridges to get across certain obstacles easier (he could also climb energy, if it meant reaching his 'target' quicker.) Additionally, I agree that his durability was superior to anything else we've seen from Juggy in the past--like I mentioned earlier, damaging Kuurth's armor (as a few characters did) =/= damaging his physical person (something NO character did.)
Originally posted by Galan007Ah ok good to know. Yeah Kuurth never displayed a FF nor do I think he used one.
I think we are on the same page here.I thought you were saying that Kuurth possessed a FF--which he clearly did not. I think we both agree on that. I also agree that his unstoppability power was in full effect--he was un-BFRable, and could literally manifest energy bridges to get across certain obstacles easier (he could also climb energy, if it meant reaching his 'target' quicker.) Additionally, I agree that his durability was superior to anything else we've seen from Juggy in the past--like I mentioned earlier, damaging Kuurth's armor (as a few characters did) =/= damaging his physical person (something NO character did.)
I do feel if he wanted to he could have summoned a FF. What do you think?
Originally posted by NewjakConsidering the stacked powers Kuurth possessed, I think it's a possibility--though I don't think it's an option the writers even considered. His physical durability alone was more than enough, after all.
Ah ok good to know. Yeah Kuurth never displayed a FF nor do I think he used one.I do feel if he wanted to he could have summoned a FF. What do you think?
Originally posted by Galan007Agreed nothing ever came close to actually threatening him or really damaging him in that state.
Considering the stacked powers Kuurth possessed, I think it's a possibility--though I don't think it's an option the writers even considered. His physical durability alone showed more than enough promise, after all.
Originally posted by celeyhyga17Would be? Depowered Kuurth wasn't nigh unstoppable when coupled with an Asgardian mallet. Literally. He was pushed around after he got depowered.
How has Cytorrak definitively shown stripping part of his power in the past? If someone can add more to this I'd be happy to agree with Kuurth pre downgrade had the full power of Classic Jugs. This is an honest question because I'm not entirely sold on Kuurth having the "full power" of classic Juggernaut. I mean come on, even a depowered Juggs would be nigh unstoppable when coupled with an Asgardian mallet.
Originally posted by celeyhyga17Classic Juggernaut always was vulnerable to tp. FP Kuurth was not. Classic Juggernaut almost never exhibited the ability to levitate. FP Kuurth did it no problem. Classic Juggernaut has been staggered by Colossus. FP Kuurth utterly no-sold Colossus. Classic Juggernaut could always be BFRed or buried. Neither could be done to FP Kuurth. Classic Juggernaut never spontaneously reformed his helmet mid-battle. FP Kuurth did it mid-fight almost instantly.
Plus Juggy has had a history of inconsistency with the whole shield thing. When Illyana reveals what has become of Cytorrak's avatar, Cyto responds with "You are mistaken. Marko finally acts as I would have always wished. He is hymn to my destruction! To my glory!" It's true that Cyto was pleased with what Marko was currently doing, but there is still a measure of ambiguity as to wether he had the utmost abilities of a Classic Juggs. Unless I've missed something, I don't see anything on panel that shows he was fully restored by Cyto. The only definitive thing we see in Kuurth's appearance concerning Cyto was when he was depowered on panel and clear as day.
This isn't a question of whether FP Kuurth operated above depowered Juggernaut or on classic Juggernaut's level. This is a question of whether FP Kuurth operated above classic Juggernaut. And based on the evidence, the answer is quite clear.
Originally posted by ODG
Would be? Depowered Kuurth wasn't nigh unstoppable when coupled with an Asgardian mallet. Literally. He was pushed around after he got depowered.
Originally posted by ODG
Classic Juggernaut always was vulnerable to tp. FP Kuurth was not. Classic Juggernaut almost never exhibited the ability to levitate. FP Kuurth did it no problem. Classic Juggernaut has been staggered by Colossus. FP Kuurth utterly no-sold Colossus. Classic Juggernaut could always be BFRed or buried. Neither could be done to FP Kuurth. Classic Juggernaut never spontaneously reformed his helmet mid-battle. FP Kuurth did it mid-fight almost instantly.
Originally posted by ODG
This isn't a question of whether FP Kuurth operated above depowered Juggernaut or on classic Juggernaut's level. This is a question of whether FP Kuurth operated above classic Juggernaut. And based on the evidence, the answer is quite clear.
Originally posted by celeyhyga17Except depowered Juggernaut was just about as far from unstoppable as you can get.
Your right about being pushed back. He was pushed back by what seemed like a "fully" backed by Cytorrak Colossus. Notice I specifically said a Depowered Juggs coupled with an Asgardian mallet and not a Kuurth totally bereft of Cyto's power. That should automotacilly convey a part of the classic unstoppability power of a classic Juggernaut along with all the trappings of the Serpent's power.
Originally posted by celeyhyga17The "extra" abilities that were all a permutation of his "unstoppability"? The word, "unstoppable," is used to describe all of those feats. Strikes me as abilities I'd chalk up to Marko's personality being sublimated and giving in to destructive tendencies, which is what Cytorrak has always demanded Marko do to regain his full powers. And if it were the Serpent's power, he'd continue to be unstoppable after being depowered, now wouldn't he? The Serpent's blessing definitely granted other things: the power to use rune steps, enslave people with a Serpent brand, and fly.
You lost me here. His extra abilities I chalk up to the Serpent's upgrade. That is plain to see.I don't claim to be an expert on all things Juggs, hence the the question or request on shedding some light of his history concenrning instances where he was depowered or lessened by Cytorrak.
Depowered Juggernaut was nearly killed by a gas explosion in a building. Had to be saved with healing factor blood. Depowered Juggernaut had nanites installed to make him obedient. Depowered Juggernaut could be punched around by Luke Cage. Depowered Juggernaut needed to
Originally posted by ODG
Depowered Juggernaut was nearly killed by a gas explosion in a building. Had to be saved with healing factor blood. Depowered Juggernaut had nanites installed to make him obedient. Depowered Juggernaut could be punched around by Luke Cage. Depowered Juggernaut needed to
Actually I was more concerned with the "how" when it comes to the loss or depletion of Cytorrak's power.
For example...
Does he lose power automatically when he does less "destruction"?
Does he just automatically lose some of his abilities when Cytorrak is simply not impressed?
Does he regain power or gain new abilities when Cytorrak is impressed?
Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Actually I was more concerned with the "how" when it comes to the loss or depletion of Cytorrak's power.For example...
Does he lose power automatically when he does less "destruction"?
Does he just automatically lose some of his abilities when Cytorrak is simply not impressed?
Does he regain power or gain new abilities when Cytorrak is impressed?
Yup, it was explained this way when he was depowered in WWH. Cyttorak depowered Juggs since he became domesticated and stop doing destruction. Cain promised to bring destruction if Cyttorak returned him to full power. Cyttorak agreed and Juggs matched WWH easily.
Originally posted by celeyhyga17I would give you a big it depends 😛
Actually I was more concerned with the "how" when it comes to the loss or depletion of Cytorrak's power.For example...
Does he lose power automatically when he does less "destruction"?
Does he just automatically lose some of his abilities when Cytorrak is simply not impressed?
Does he regain power or gain new abilities when Cytorrak is impressed?
Most of the time Classic Juggs wasn't really spreading tons of destruction all the time but he was obviously at full power.
And has stated a couple of times Cain has a direct link to the Crimson Cosmos so as long as that link exists that Cain can draw on more power.
Really the only times I've seen Cain really depowered is when he basically disobeys Cyttorak or gets caught using someone else's power besides Cyttorak's own.
Originally posted by Newjak
Really the only times I've seen Cain really depowered is when he basically disobeys Cyttorak or gets caught using someone else's power besides Cyttorak's own.
Are u referring to Fear Itself when Cytorrak was informed of his use of the Serpent's power or another instance where a similar thing happened??
Originally posted by celeyhyga17Well there is also the Captain Universe instance where Luke said either the powers effected Cain or Cyttorak had turned off his mojo.
Are u referring to Fear Itself when Cytorrak was informed of his use of the Serpent's power or another instance where a similar thing happened??