(Dynasty of Evil) Darth Bane -vs- Darth Plagueis (Darth Plagueis)

Originally posted by Pwned
The sentence, "He drew upon the energy of the temple to create a field of death that would normally exhaust him very rapidly"

(Paraphrased slightly due to my current lack of a book on hand)

That implies that he can do it elsewhere, but not for very long.

That is extremely paraphrased. This is the full passage, pardon the truncated sentences, I copied it straight from my PDF copy:

Dynasty of Evil
Bane extinguished his weapon and stood perfectly still, allowing the swarming horde to close in
on him as he gathered his strength. He called upon the power of the temple itself, feeding on it to
bolster his own abilities as he created a deadly field around his body. It began as a tight circle,
but quickly spread outward until it extended to a radius of ten meters, with the Sith Lord at the
center. The air within the circumference of the field suddenly became darker, as if the light from
the red sun above had been suddenly dimmed.
Cloaked in the shadowy gloom, Bane simply held his ground against the enemy assault. The
front ranks of onrushing cultists shrieked in agony as they entered the field, their life essence
violently sucked out of their bodies, aging them a thousand years in only a few seconds. Muscles
and tendons atrophied instantaneously; their skin withered and shrank, pulling tight across their
bones. Eyes and tongues shriveled, turning them into mummified husks before their desiccated
flesh crumbled away, leaving only skeletal remains and a few strands of hair.
The effort of creating an aura of pure dark side energy would have quickly exhausted even Bane.
However, as his enemies fell he was able to draw their essence into himself, feeding on their
energies to revitalize his fading strength and reinforcing the field in preparation for the next
wave of victims.

The implication is that even aided by the focusing energies of the temple, it would have continued to exhaust Bane had he not consumed the essences of his dying enemies. There is nothing that mentions his ability to replicate this feat elsewhere.

Thanks for posting that, like I said, I don't have my book on hand.

To me, it implies that he had to draw upon the energy in the temple or it would have quickly exhausted him. Consuming their essence was what allowed him to keep it up for as long as he did.

Then you're reading it wrong. The "however" refers to him sucking up the life essence of the dying not the temple.

Edit: Ah, I see what you are saying. It's impossible to say whether he could use it without the temple or not.

If he can, there is no way possible I see Plagueis winning. If he can't, then Bane still takes it, but by a much narrower margin.

Why? We don't know how effective it would be against a force user. Truthfully, I feel Bane has a far better chance based on his saber skills and other powers rather than this one-off power.

If the ability was truly that powerful then he would have used it against Zannah.

He didn't use it against Zannah due to PIS, obviously.

But really, how could Plagueis win this? I am not so well versed in his abilities, and I am not going to use Wookie as a know-all perfect-reliability source.

Originally posted by Pwned
Thanks for posting that, like I said, I don't have my book on hand.

To me, it implies that he had to draw upon the energy in the temple or it would have quickly exhausted him. Consuming their essence was what allowed him to keep it up for as long as he did.

Consuming the essence of Malevolence cultists is what the text identifies as enabling Bane to continue the attack; he's already drawing on the temple's energies when he muses that the effort would have quickly exhausted him, indicating that even drawing on such a nexus, his ability to apply the attack would have dwindled quickly had it not been for the presence of the aforementioned cultists. With that in mind, I see no reason to conclude he could conjure the technique elsewhere, particularly since he fails to wield it against Zannah (as Nephthys notes). Moreover, as ares reminded us, the Malevolence cultists were non-Force sensitives: there's no reason to assume the attack, even if Bane could wield it bereft of a dark side nexus and/or fodder for him to consume, would be remotely effective against a trained Force user, particularly one of Plagueis's caliber.

Actually, there is a way to tell if it would work.

Plagueis is roughly on par with Bane, that is the consensus, correct? As the passage describes, it is, "A field of pure dark side energy" the same as Zannah's tentacles, just in a different form, with a different way of utilizing this particular power/skill. That means that it would work on just about anybody, as the tentacles showed to be insanely powerful creations. Maybe I am just trying to make Bane sound cooler, but thats how it seems to me. Both appear to be the very similiar, especially in how they are carried out.

Though I grant it may only be possible for him to do it on a nexus, as with Zannah and the tentacles. I can accept that. Plagueis still loses.

Given the almost meditative-level of concentration Bane utilized to kill mundane cultists, that is a bold claim to make. His adversary is a highly trained and extremely powerful Force user who would be able to draw upon the same energies that linger in the Valley.

Meditative-level of concentration to create a field of dark side energy that will instantly kill anything that touches it. Yeah, thats so easy.

Seriously, nobody has said why Plagueis wins, so therefore, with arguments supporting Bane, and none Plagueis, Bane logically wins.

Pwned
Meditative-level of concentration to create a field of dark side energy that will instantly kill anything that touches it. Yeah, thats so easy.

Much like your contorted, butchered "paraphrasing" of a passage to yield faulty conclusions, I believe you're neglecting finer details in your rush to declare Bane the winner of this thread: (a.) the Malevolence cultists weren't Force sensitive, let alone trained Force users, let alone one of Plagueis's caliber; (b.) honing the Temple's energies, Bane only extended the field to ten meters and either could not (or elected not) to extend it out farther—Plagueis's speed feats are impressive enough to conclude that he could outrun the kill zone effortlessly; (c.) who's to say Plagueis will recklessly charge Bane like the cultists or allow him the time and opportunity to conjure the death field?

Pwned
Seriously, nobody has said why Plagueis wins, so therefore, with arguments supporting Bane, and none Plagueis, Bane logically wins.

That's retarded. Simply because no one cares or elects to argue in favor of Plagueis doesn't mean Bane would win the duel, it means no one cares enough to argue in favor of Plagueis.

Actually no, if there is no opposing argument, then the argument that has been presented is typically declared the winner, on basis that there is no opposition to their claims.

My "butchered paraphrasing" that I did from a 1 1/2 month memory, without my book on hand to actually type it out. You can hardly fault somebody for not reading a book in a while.

Actually, most of the Malevolence cult was Force sensitive, thats why they were there. They were just barely more sensitive than normal people, and likely would never have been accepted into any established order (such as Jedi or Sith) but they were sensitive.

Like I said, there has been no argument in favor of Plagueis. Therefore, his actions are up to whatever the opposing argument sets out. If I think that he is going to attack Bane with a lightsaber, which I will remind you is approximately 1 1/4-1/2 meter in length counting hilt, and Bane throws up a 10 meter field of pure dark side energy that will kill him, then Plagueis will die. Nobody has set any other course of action for him.

Oh, and I am fairly certain that, "It never was explicitly used against somebody of this caliber, so it can't be said to work on them" is either a logical fallacy or plain stupid. Either or.

In other words both showed something over the top. Both didn't fight anyone of significant caliber to make at least relative comparisons in power. So it's 50/50.
Unless there is a training session between Plagueis and already prime Sidious, where Plagueis overpowers him with lightsaber or the Force or at least equals.

Originally posted by Pwned
Actually no, if there is no opposing argument, then the argument that has been presented is typically declared the winner, on basis that there is no opposition to their claims.

Declared by whom? Battlemaster? Because she's the only one I see who assumes the self-appointed task of deciding who wins and who loses these threads, but not anyone with verifiable authority to interpret canon.

The idea that a lack of opposition means that Bane wins the fight is hilariously stupid. William Lane Craig invited Richard Dawkins to debate the existence of god; Dawkins never showed up, therefore God must exist? 🙄

Your argument is stupid.

Originally posted by Pwned
My "butchered paraphrasing" that I did from a 1 1/2 month memory, without my book on hand to actually type it out. You can hardly fault somebody for not reading a book in a while.

I don't fault you for not remembering.

Originally posted by Pwned
Actually, most of the Malevolence cult was Force sensitive, thats why they were there. They were just barely more sensitive than normal people, and likely would never have been accepted into any established order (such as Jedi or Sith) but they were sensitive.

Dynasty of Evil
Despite their numbers, Bane instantly realized they posed no real threat. Though they worshiped
one of the ancient Sith, these were ordinary men and women. The Force did not flow through
their veins; they were nothing but fodder.

These were the twenty or so cultists killed by the death field. Bane begs to differ.

Originally posted by Pwned
Like I said, there has been no argument in favor of Plagueis. Therefore, his actions are up to whatever the opposing argument sets out. If I think that he is going to attack Bane with a lightsaber, which I will remind you is approximately 1 1/4-1/2 meter in length counting hilt, and Bane throws up a 10 meter field of pure dark side energy that will kill him, then Plagueis will die. Nobody has set any other course of action for him.

Right, because as a Sith Lord of prodigious ability, Plagueis is limited to only his lightsaber as a means of killing. If only there were some sort force he could bring to bear against his enem—

Oh, wait.

Originally posted by Pwned
Oh, and I am fairly certain that, "It never was explicitly used against somebody of this caliber, so it can't be said to work on them" is either a logical fallacy or plain stupid. Either or.

Right, because Force powers always work the same way with the same level of effectiveness against Force users as they do non-Force users. Well, since that's the case, Plagueis waves his hands and atomizes Bane—since, y'know, it worked against non-Force using assassins so it must work against Bane!

Well considering how there has been absolutely nothign said about Plagueis' Force abilities that he has shown in the middle of a fight, then I have to assume an attack with what I do know he does. Use a lightsaber.

Considering how their debate was never started, there was no winner. There was no debate.

"Doesn't work at all" and, "They have shown no defense against such a technique" is different. If Plagueis can atomize Bane as simply as waving his hand, then he wins. But I want the passage that he does so to anybody.

Pwned
Well considering how there has been absolutely nothign said about Plagueis' Force abilities that he has shown in the middle of a fight, then I have to assume an attack with what I do know he does. Use a lightsaber.

Because Sith Lords can't use the Force at all in combat unless someone provides an excerpt and page number to the contrary. 🙄

Pwned
Considering how their debate was never started, there was no winner. There was no debate.

At last, the telltale glimmer of understanding from the intellectually dull! This was precisely my point. But you claimed that "Bane logically wins" since there were arguments supporting him and "none [for] Plagueis":

Just Got Pwned
Seriously, nobody has said why Plagueis wins, so therefore, with arguments supporting Bane, and none Plagueis, Bane logically wins.

Now that you understand the full depth of your failure, I graciously accept your concession.

Pwned
"Doesn't work at all" and, "They have shown no defense against such a technique" is different. If Plagueis can atomize Bane as simply as waving his hand, then he wins.

You mean trained Force sensitives may have a defense against attacks that are effective against non-Force sensitives? If only I raised that point earli—

Me
Oh, wait.

Pwned
But I want the passage that he does so to anybody.

Darth Plagueis
In blinding motion his hands and feet smashed skulls and windpipes. He stopped once to conjure a Force wave that all but atomized the bodies of six Maladians. He spun through a turn, dragging the wave halfway around the room to kill half a dozen more.

Here's the full passage for your examination:

Darth Plagueis
Not a meter away stood 11-4D, five decapitator disks protruding from his alloy body and telltale lights blinking, in the midst of a self-diagnosis routine. Having run himself through a similar test, Plagueis knew that he had lost a great deal of blood, and that one of his subsidiary hearts was in fibrillation. Sith techniques had helped him perform chemical cardioversions on his other two hearts, but one of them was working so hard to compensate that it, too, was in danger of becoming arrhythmic. Plagueis moved his eyes just enough to fix the locations of some of the two dozen assassins that had survived the Sun Guards’ counterattack; then he dug deep into the Force and catapulted himself to his feet.

The closest of the assassins swung to him with raised vibroblades and rushed forward, only to be flung backward off the canted stage and against the room’s curved walls. Others Plagueis felled with his hands by snapping necks and putting his fists through armored torsos. Spreading his arms wide, he clapped his hands together, turning every loose object in the vicinity into a deadly projectile. But the Maladians were far from run-of-the-mill murderers. Members of the cult had killed and wounded Jedi, and in response to confronting Force powers, they didn’t shrink or flee but simply changed tactics, moving with astounding agility to surround Plagueis and wait for openings.

The wait lasted only until Plagueis attempted to unleash lightning. His second subsidiary heart failed, paralyzing him with pain and nearly plunging him into unconsciousness. The assassins wasted not a moment, throwing themselves at him in groups, though in a vain attempt to penetrate the Force shield he raised. Again he rallied, this time with a ragged sound dredged from deep inside that erupted from him like a sonic weapon, shattering the eardrums of those within ten meters and compelling the rest to bring their hands to their ears.

In blinding motion his hands and feet smashed skulls and windpipes. He stopped once to conjure a Force wave that all but atomized the bodies of six Maladians. He spun through a turn, dragging the wave halfway around the room to kill half a dozen more. But even that wasn’t enough to deter his assailants. They flew against him again, making the most of his momentary weakness to open gashes on his arms and shoulders. Down on one knee, he levitated a Sun Guard blaster from the floor and called it toward him; but one of the assassins succeeded in altering its trajectory by hurling himself into the path of the airborne weapon.

With nothing more than the Force of his mind, Plagueis rattled the floor, knocking some of the assassins off their feet, but others rushed in to take their places, slashing at him with their vibroblades from every angle. He knew that he had life enough to conjure one final counteroffensive. He was a moment from loosing hell on the Maladians when he sensed Sidious enter the room.

Thank you, now that I have somebody saying Plagueis wins and WHY, then it matters.

As to atomizing him, Bane hasn't shown any method of defending against it. But it did require him to, "Stop to conjure" it. While Bane did not immediately create the aura, I would say their insta-kills are roughly the same time frame to make, as Plagueis barely paused, and Bane, while having to "gather strength" did not seem to take much time due to the onrushing cultists.

Bane has shown to utilize the Force in ways to force his opponent into doing what he wants, and moving where he wants. In his fight with Zannah in the Stone Prison, he sent out carefully measured bursts of lightning to force her where he wanted her. Over the trilogy, he has also shown a remarkable talent for using the Force defensively, as he has a near-impenetrable "shield" that he uses against TK. His lightning also tears through almost any "shild" as well, with it being said to be a million volts.
He also has shown a resilience to sorcery, in that Zannah could not use it to take him out of the fight permanently, only for a short period. Bane can create a cocoon of purple energy which will shield him from an attack, which then proceeds to explode. He also has one of the highest tolerances for pain ever shown, if not THE highest, due to living with Orbalisks for a decade.

Pwned
Thank you, now that I have somebody saying Plagueis wins and WHY, then it matters.

You've confused a sarcastic remark that exposed the flaws in your argument for a literal claim as though I have a stake in this. I do not believe Plagueis would be able to atomize a Force user of Bane's pedigree, especially if Bane is prepared and has erected shields.

Pwned
As to atomizing him, Bane hasn't shown any method of defending against it. But it did require him to, "Stop to conjure" it. While Bane did not immediately create the aura, I would say their insta-kills are roughly the same time frame to make, as Plagueis barely paused, and Bane, while having to "gather strength" did not seem to take much time due to the onrushing cultists.

You have no basis for making such a comparison and its conclusions are faulty. Bane deactivated his lightsaber and stood perfectly still to channel his powers; Plagueis "stopped" breaking necks and crushing windpipes to conjure the Force wave. There is no indication that Plagueis had to act with the same level of concentration and focus that Bane did. More importantly, Plagueis managed to do all of this at a period of intense physical disadvantage: a double case of cardiac arrest and severe blood loss. At full health, preparation, and with access to a dark side nexus, the attack may very well be more potent and more effortless.

But it doesn't matter, as I don't believe Bane would just fall victim to atomization.

Pwned
Bane has shown to utilize the Force in ways to force his opponent into doing what he wants, and moving where he wants. In his fight with Zannah in the Stone Prison, he sent out carefully measured bursts of lightning to force her where he wanted her. Over the trilogy, he has also shown a remarkable talent for using the Force defensively, as he has a near-impenetrable "shield" that he uses against TK. His lightning also tears through almost any "shild" as well, with it being said to be a million volts.
He also has shown a resilience to sorcery, in that Zannah could not use it to take him out of the fight permanently, only for a short period. Bane can create a cocoon of purple energy which will shield him from an attack, which then proceeds to explode. He also has one of the highest tolerances for pain ever shown, if not THE highest, due to living with Orbalisks for a decade.

I'm not interested in whether or not Bane could beat Plagueis, you can find your opponent elsewhere. I'm here simply to correct your errors, the outcome of this thread is inconsequential.

Yeah, I still have to say I'm not reading anything that gives me a clear sense of what Plag can do against another high-level Force user in combat. The example above was similar to Bane's at the temple.

As of now my main weight for any of Plagueis skills again goes to the fact that Sidious chose not to face him in open combat but instead poisoned him, leading me to believe that his former Master was rather formidable.