Superman vs WBH-To the Death

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Save for one scan I stumbled upon a day or three ago in these forums, don't think I've really had much experience with Zeus outside of Homer's Iliad. (DC Comics excepted, of course)
IN the Iliad, however, Zeus is described as being so much stronger than the rest of the Greek Pantheon that Poseidon himself, master of all the world's oceans, tells Hera, who is plotting against Zeus in hopes of destroying Troy, that he does not wish that ALL the rest of the gods united together should face Zeus in real combat, fearing Zeus is much stronger than any of the rest of them. Zeus himself boasts that if all the gods were to take a chain and fasten hold to his arm they could not bring him down from heaven, but that he himself, were he minded, could lightly pull every last one of them up to HIM.
None of the Pantheon dispute that argument, either.

In other words, the Hulk-pancake Hercules notwithstanding, ZEUS might be leagues above Hulk, but it doesn't necessarily follow that all other Greek deities are nearly that much more powerful, for Zeus is the strongest of them all.

Might be interesting, by contrast, for instance, to see if HERA could contend with Hulk in a physical matchup. Not all gods are created equal.

By skyfather , we mean the godheads of their respective pantheons, people who are members of the Council of Godheads , like Odin , Vishnu/Brahma/Shiva , Itzamna etc .
These are the guys that are way above Hulk's paygrade .

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Ignoring is the wrong word. Rather I've heard the argument and found it lacking. Relativistic bubble or whatever you choose to call it, your argument is that Callisto has great speed and momentum making it more difficult than a typical moon moving/stopping/slowing feat.
Actually, you've said it is more difficult than a typical EARTH moving/stopping/slowing feat, despite the fact that Earth is 16 times more massive than our moon.
Actually, considering the Starbreaker ep, you're saying that again.

Problem is Superman is being paired with numerous other yellow sun-empowered Kryptonians. It's fine to say Superman "holds back", has mental blocks, can't use his full strength, etcetera. It's even okay to say he's stronger than the average Kryptonian. But how far are we to take that? What, is he 3 times stronger? 4 times? 5? 6?
Even allowing for that, there are EIGHT other Kryptonians out there trying their level best to stop that thing! And failing.
Even though a crew of Thanagarians go out there and slow the moon for them.
What, are these Kryptonians "holding back", too?

And yet, we can look at JLA "Terror Incognita" and witness another moon hurtling with great speed and momentum toward a planet.
OUR Moon, and OUR own Earth on collision.
But here we have a rookie Lantern and Wonder Woman assisting.
So here adjusting a swift-moving momentum-laden moon succeeds.

Even as the assistance of Martian Manhunter and Wonder Woman again allows planet Earth tow-recovery after that.

Apparently, mass aside,

Superman + Hal Jordan = success*.
Superman + Kyle Rayner + Wonder Woman = success.
Superman + Martian Manhunter+ Wonder Woman = success.
Superman + 8 Kryptonians = failure.

The Callisto feat was explained before.

And that's not even getting in to the point that it was written in an arc, by a writer that had been consistently nerfing Superman throughout his run. It also doesn't discount all of Superman's very high strength feats either.

If you're really going to try to claim that Superman could only accomplish any of those feats with help, based on one showing in a bad comic by a poor writer, then that's not really going to be valid on the forum, as that's not how we do things.

If that's not what you're claiming, then disregard the last paragraph.

That's what he is claiming, I always thought that the GL construct was a harness to prevent the earth from shattering because it was getting pulled in opposite directions.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
What I know of Starbreaker I know from reading online reviews and KMCs own respect thread on the guy. I do not own any comic of pre-Crisis (Metal Age) Starbreaker.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Going by the following and the fact that there is no Wonder Woman in the story, which, if memory serves correctly, was true in its own era, as she left the team for a short while for whatever reason:

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" ... [w]hile it is part of some bigger storyline (aren't all comics, nowadays?), I find you can read and enjoy this issue all on its own--its a retelling of sorts of Justice League of America #s 96 and 97, where the World's Greatest Super-Heroes take on the cosmic vampire known as The Starbreaker.

But the fun part is that this issue is written by classic JLA writer Len Wein, and that he has rewritten it to include all the members of the team. And, unlike in the original issues, Aquaman gets to be involved, and personally pound the snot out of Starbreaker ... "
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.aquamanshrine.com/2009_01_01_archive.html

Originally posted by -Pr-
So what's the actual issue here?

Originally posted by -Pr-
Not the comic book issue. The debate issue.

He is basically saying that Superman moved the planet with Hal Jordan, because this is a retelling of a pre crisis story.
Because apparently he moved the planet on the old story on the silver age, that is why He is moving the planet again on the modern age, that if this wasn't a re-telling of the story, he would not moved the planet under modern era writing standards

But He never moved the planet on the silver age, he only did it on the modern re-telling of the story.

Basically, he is wrong.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider

2) I don't know what "sky father" level is to be honest.
I was actually surprised to see that Greg Pak had Zeus throw Hulk a beating perusing a respect thread last year.
For isn't Hercules Zeus' own son? Doesn't even Savage Hulk beat Herc fairly regularly?
For that matter, doesn't Odin's son lose fairly often to Savage Hulk?
If Thor has such a hard time despite having Mjolnir, greatest of the Norse weapons, why would his father just roll through?

Perhaps in the future I'll opt to troll, but, in all honesty, I can't recall any instances of my doing so on this particular board to date.

Problem is that your reading background is vastly different from mine.
I saw some scans of Odin today (well, yesterday now I suppose) describing him in the sorts of terms you allude to.

First time I'd seen anything in a comic book (KMC scans rather) that made me think Odin is levels above Thor.

Only things I've seen of him before were deals like Tarene versus Gladiator, the Hulk versus Asgard movie, and the "What If ... Rogue Possessed the Power of Thor?" issue. He certainly didn't strike me as a leagues-above-Thor figure in any of those.
Not PHYSICALLY, at any rate.
Magic wise, maybe.
Physically? No.

Witness the following scene of that "What If ...?" book, for instance ...

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
The "What If" story there posits what would happen, if, back in Avengers #10, Rogue had opted NOT to let Thor go and drain more power before freeing her adopted mom (Mystique) and friends.
The attempt backfires on Rogue, she absorbs ALL of what makes Thor Thor, accidentally killing him in the process and swamping her mind with his memories and persona. She reacts violently to her companions, unintentionally triggering an overreaction from Pyro while she is flying with her team over water, if memory serves correctly.

Unfortunately, Pyro's power is to make things burn.
REALLY hot. Too hot.
The fuel in the tanks of that plane catch fire, there is, predictably, a fierce and sudden explosion, all of Rogue's team, including her mom, Mystique are killed before Rogue can react.

Enter Loki, who convinces the nearly out of her mind child to work with him in the "heroic" goal of overthrowing Odin, starting by waging war against the forces of all of Asgard. Which she does ...

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Note the treatment of the Asgard forces.

Overwhelmed by Thor-Rogue.

No one seems to have any reply for Mjolnir, and all begin despairing.

If Odin is so much greater than Thor ... why?

And why is Odin himself not on the battlefield, fending off harm from his troops with his great power?

At any rate, the fight continues and even the arrival of some of Earth's heroes can't shift the tide enough in Asgard's favor to stop her.

Fortunately, Rogue can stop herself, and she does so, sparing the life of Balder. Whereupon ...

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
... we arrive at the throne room of Odin.

Loki gives Rogue the command to kill the old king.

Presumably, we are meant to understand she can do so, and with surety.

Certainly it is implied that Odin has enough offensive power to take Loki and Rogue in turn; that much isn't in question.
Just doesn't seem at all like its because of a power difference leagues apart from his son Thor, though.

Seems more or less a 50/50 proposition between the two sides, and I would have no problem saying that this can support Odin has the offensive power of Loki and Thor together, but orders of magnitude more than that? No. Nothing of scenes like this, the only kinds I'd seen before yesterday, implies that THAT is the case.

I'm going to make this very simple.

Someone with Skyfather power level can make things that make even less sense than comics. And that is saying a lot.

Logic does not apply to Skyfathers, because from here on and above this power level they defy logic even on a greater level than metas.

So when Zeus says that he can vaporize Hulk with a mere thought, ummmmm. He can.

There is a lot of sky father level feats you can see around and they put herald level feats to shame

Oh! and yes not all Gods are equal, but also not all gods ARE SKYFATHERS

Originally posted by janus77
WBH vaporises Superman. Totally different weight classes here. Superman wouldn't be able to get at WBH, the energy output alone would KO/kill Superman before he got within a planet's distance of WBH.

Oh this is funny 😂

Thanks for the laugh

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Ignoring is the wrong word. Rather I've heard the argument and found it lacking. Relativistic bubble or whatever you choose to call it, your argument is that Callisto has great speed and momentum making it more difficult than a typical moon moving/stopping/slowing feat.
Actually, you've said it is more difficult than a typical EARTH moving/stopping/slowing feat, despite the fact that Earth is 16 times more massive than our moon.
Actually, considering the Starbreaker ep, you're saying that again.

Problem is Superman is being paired with numerous other yellow sun-empowered Kryptonians. It's fine to say Superman "holds back", has mental blocks, can't use his full strength, etcetera. It's even okay to say he's stronger than the average Kryptonian. But how far are we to take that? What, is he 3 times stronger? 4 times? 5? 6?
Even allowing for that, there are EIGHT other Kryptonians out there trying their level best to stop that thing! And failing.
Even though a crew of Thanagarians go out there and slow the moon for them.
What, are these Kryptonians "holding back", too?

And yet, we can look at JLA "Terror Incognita" and witness another moon hurtling with great speed and momentum toward a planet.
OUR Moon, and OUR own Earth on collision.
But here we have a rookie Lantern and Wonder Woman assisting.
So here adjusting a swift-moving momentum-laden moon succeeds.

Even as the assistance of Martian Manhunter and Wonder Woman again allows planet Earth tow-recovery after that.

Apparently, mass aside,

Superman + Hal Jordan = success*.
Superman + Kyle Rayner + Wonder Woman = success.
Superman + Martian Manhunter+ Wonder Woman = success.
Superman + 8 Kryptonians = failure.

SMH.

I have started to notice that you are debating in a lot of issues you have not even read.

This "math" above works great IF ignores the context that comes from reading those comic issues.

This argument is as useless as saying

WW alone barely lifts a bridge
WW + MMH + Superman moved a celestial object , since WW can barely lift a bridge, she only contributed that much of force.

My argument sounds very, very ignorant because is dismissing all the other evidence that proves that WW has grater strength than just barely lift a bridge.

Originally posted by carver9
WBH stomps. Superman flies into his OMNI blast which stuns him and Hulk ends it with a single punch. WBH 10/10.

OMNI blast?

WBH with a single punch only knocked down a bloodlusted Sentry; certainly didn't end it there. The same would be true for Superman. The fight would go on a lot longer.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider

2) I don't know what "sky father" level is to be honest.
I was actually surprised to see that Greg Pak had Zeus throw Hulk a beating perusing a respect thread last year.
For isn't Hercules Zeus' own son? Doesn't even Savage Hulk beat Herc fairly regularly?
For that matter, doesn't Odin's son lose fairly often to Savage Hulk?
If Thor has such a hard time despite having Mjolnir, greatest of the Norse weapons, why would his father just roll through?

Perhaps in the future I'll opt to troll, but, in all honesty, I can't recall any instances of my doing so on this particular board to date.

Problem is that your reading background is vastly different from mine.
I saw some scans of Odin today (well, yesterday now I suppose) describing him in the sorts of terms you allude to.

First time I'd seen anything in a comic book (KMC scans rather) that made me think Odin is levels above Thor.

Only things I've seen of him before were deals like Tarene versus Gladiator, the Hulk versus Asgard movie, and the "What If ... Rogue Possessed the Power of Thor?" issue. He certainly didn't strike me as a leagues-above-Thor figure in any of those.
Not PHYSICALLY, at any rate.
Magic wise, maybe.
Physically? No.

Witness the following scene of that "What If ...?" book, for instance ...

What's this about Odin not being magnitudes more powerful than Thor? 😂

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
What's this about Odin not being magnitudes more powerful than Thor? 😂

Its based on a What If ?(of all things) , in which Rogue got Thor's power .

Odin was heartbroken by Thor's loss , to the point that he was willing to let Rogue kill him .In fact in his own words ,he was already "dead inside" . He had simply lost the will to live , due to Thor's loss .
Despite this , he was still powerful enough to kill both Loki and Rogue , and Loki duly notes his "lethal" nature :

All in all , this is a What If , and since it is non-cannon , it should be treated as such . Hardly any convincing comparison of Odin and Thor .

Now THIS is what I call a good Odin-Thor comparison(even though it comes from the drivel written by Fraction , known as Fear Itself) :

I can say with 100% certainty that Superman is more than 3x as powerful as an average kryptonian.

Superman beats the shit out of Hulk

Originally posted by roughrider
OMNI blast?

WBH with a single punch only knocked down a bloodlusted Sentry; certainly didn't end it there. The same would be true for Superman. The fight would go on a lot longer.

There is a difference between WWH and WBH.

Originally posted by carver9
There is a difference between WWH and WBH.

Originally posted by carver9
WWH IS WBH unless the OP states not to use this Hulk during the opening of his post.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

They are the same person but their power levels are different.

Thor and King Thor and Rune King Thor are all the same person.

Just different power levels.

John Byrne Superman is the same as infinite book lifting Superman.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
[QUOTE=13933421]Originally posted by carver9
[B]There is a difference between WWH and WBH.

Originally posted by carver9
WWH IS WBH unless the OP states not to use this Hulk during the opening of his post.

Carter is the master of self-pwnage .