Originally posted by TheGodKiller
the only thing that I don't agree with him on was the Mad Celestials' original intention to take over the multiverse .
Yeah, I don't think that was ever explicitly stated. Then again, I do remember something about the Celestials wanting to take over the Council of Reeds because their umm.. headquarters or whatever led to all divergent realities. So that idea sort of makes sense. I wish Hickman himself visited the boards.
Originally posted by Doon
Yeah, I don't think that was ever explicitly stated. Then again, I do remember something about the Celestials wanting to take over the Council of Reeds because their umm.. headquarters or whatever led to all divergent realities. So that idea sort of makes sense. I wish Hickman himself visited the boards.
Actually this scan very clearly implies that the Mad Celestials' original intention was indeed the conquest of the multiverse :
Bighead Reed : "They want the Council as a staging area for conquest ."
Mad Celestial : "This place leads to all others . We would have all of it...."
The Bridge was basically a pocket space between all realities , so its not inconceivable from the above statements , that the Mad Gods wanted to take over the multiverse .
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Actually this scan very clearly implies that the Mad Celestials' original intention was indeed the conquest of the multiverse :Bighead Reed : "They want the Council as a staging area for conquest ."
Mad Celestial : "This place leads to all others . We would have all of it...."The Bridge was basically a pocket space between all realities , so its not inconceivable from the above statements , that the Mad Gods wanted to take over the multiverse .
Indeed. I vaguely remembered that scene and wasn't sure if it was explicitly stated. Apparently, it was though. And now, it's all in the hands of the Parliament of Doom right? Uh oh.
Originally posted by TheGodKillerI used to believe this. Now it seems quite clear to me that kid Frank's power was used primarily/solely to resurrect Galactus--the orb was summoned/sent specifically by adult Frank for that task, after all:
Yet he needed to amp himself with his younger self's power in order to kill a 4280-Celestial .
And since adult Frank killed a Ceelstial after G was resurrected, there is absolutely no evidence he needed young Franklin's energies.
Originally posted by TheGodKillerThough it is a great feat, kid Franklin warping a single attack from the Celestial doesn't mean much at all in the way of proof that he was superior to his adult self, tbh. When said Celestial initially attacked kid Franklin, it/they had not yet come to the realization that he was a reality manipulator:
And it didn't occur to him to simply warp the Celestials's offensive blasts into flowers(or anything harmless) , which little Franklin did using only SOME of his power :
If they would have realized this from the get-go, their attacks would have been much different--and likely much more powerful.
Remember, they were well aware that adult Franklin was a reality manipulator on a universal scale when he first popped in--hell, they even knew his arrival meant imminent "doom" for them:
...Yet they still attacked him with energy blasts (blasts he tanked, btw):
Originally posted by TheGodKillerJust to remind you, the Celestials attacked the Council's temple, because from there, they were able to track down, and kill, each and every member of the Council of Reeds:
Actually this scan very clearly implies that the Mad Celestials' original intention was indeed the conquest of the multiverse :Bighead Reed : "They want the Council as a staging area for conquest ."
Mad Celestial : "This place leads to all others . We would have all of it...."The Bridge was basically a pocket space between all realities , so its not inconceivable from the above statements , that the Mad Gods wanted to take over the multiverse .
By the time they arrived at the 616 reality, however, 616 Reed was the only Reed left:
Mad Celestial: "Success/triumph/access achieved. The final renegade/interloper/anarchist is here. I sense him/it. Engaging in annihilation/illimination. NOW."
Again, the Mad Celestials' only goal was to eliminate all of the Reeds in the Council. Their actions were having too much of an impact on creation. Multiversal conquest was never their intent.
Originally posted by Galan007
I used to believe this. Now it seems quite clear to me that kid Frank's power was used primarily/solely to resurrect Galactus--the orb was summoned/sent specifically by adult Frank for that task, after all:
http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/12420053_f1.jpg http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/12420054_f2.jpgAnd since adult Frank killed a Celestial after G was resurrected, there is absolutely no evidence he needed young Franklin's energies.
Though it is a great feat, kid Franklin warping a single attack from the Celestial doesn't mean much at all in the way of proof that he was superior to his adult self, tbh. When said Celestial initially attacked kid Franklin, it/they had not yet come to the realization that he was a reality manipulator:
If they would have realized this from the get-go, their attacks would have been much different--and likely much more powerful.
Remember, they were well aware that adult Franklin was a reality manipulator on a universal scale when he first popped in--hell, they even knew his arrival meant imminent "doom" for them:
...Yet they still attacked him with energy blasts (blasts he tanked, btw):
Originally posted by Galan007
Just to remind you, the Celestials attacked the Council's temple, because from there, they were able to track down, and kill, each and every member of the Council of Reeds:By the time they arrived at the 616 reality, however, 616 Reed was the only Reed left:
Mad Celestial: "Success/triumph/access achieved. The final renegade/interloper/anarchist is here. I sense him/it. Engaging in annihilation/illimination. NOW."Again, the Mad Celestials' only goal was to eliminate all of the Reeds in the Council. Their actions were having too much of an impact on creation. Multiversal conquest was never their intent.
Bighead Reed : "They want the Council as a staging area for conquest ."
Mad Celestial : "This place leads to all others . We would have all of it...."
The scan which you presented , takes place BEFORE those Mad Celestials were reduced in numbers from god-knows-how-many-there-were-originally to 4 .
Its not unreasonable to assume that with so many of their brethren killed , their numbers reduced drastically , their species essentially becoming endangered , they may have renounced multiversal conquest and set their goal as solely the extermination of all remaining Reeds as revenge(its not unreasonable at all to assume such , considering their mental state to begin with) .
Originally posted by TheGodKillerMy opinion has changed (see the first sentence of my previous post.) Taking the entire story into context, it's pretty obvious that kid Franklin's power was used solely by adult Frank to resurrect Galactus.
All that is nice and well Galan , but did you not yourself claim in the original Galactus VS Celestials thread that adult Franklin having to kill himself in order to destroy the final Celestial(Eson) , as compared to him killing the his first Celestial , indicated that he was being amped ? Unless and until you have changed your position about adult Franklin's supposed "death" , then I see your original line of reasoning more logical than what you are presenting now .
I believe that adult Frank was able to kill the first Celestial far easier than he was able to kill Eson for one of two reasons:
a.) Eson was simply THAT much more powerful than the first Celestial Frank destroyed.
or
b.) Frank's power had diminished significantly due to combating multiple Celestials simultaneously.
Originally posted by TheGodKillerThe scan takes place AFTER, actually. Furthermore, you're assuming that their numbers dwindling forced the Celestials to abandon their alleged quest for multiversal supremacy, and instead opt to simply track down/kill all of the Reeds? I can't agree, because that was never stated. What was stated (by the Celestials themselves) is that killing the Council was their primary/sole goal:
This scan tells a different story :Bighead Reed : "They want the Council as a staging area for conquest ."
Mad Celestial : "This place leads to all others . We would have all of it...."The scan which you presented , takes place BEFORE those Mad Celestials were reduced in numbers from god-knows-how-many-there-were-originally to 4 .
Its not unreasonable to assume that with so many of their brethren killed , their numbers reduced drastically , their species essentially becoming endangered , they may have renounced multiversal conquest and set their goal as solely the extermination of all remaining Reeds as revenge(its not unreasonable at all to assume such , considering their mental state to begin with) .
Multiversal domination never seemed like the Celestials' intent. Ever. It could have been, but I don't see why killing every single member of the Council (a task they literally went out of their way to accomplish) would have taken so much precedence...
Originally posted by Galan007
My opinion has changed (see the first sentence of my previous post.) Taking the entire story into context, it's pretty obvious that kid Franklin's power was used solely by adult Frank to resurrect Galactus.I believe that adult Frank was able to kill the first Celestial far easier than he was able to kill Eson for one of two reasons:
a.) Eson was simply THAT much more powerful than the first Celestial Frank destroyed.
or
b.) Frank's power had diminished significantly due to combating multiple Celestials simultaneously.
Originally posted by Galan007
The scan takes place AFTER, actually. Furthermore, you're assuming that their numbers dwindling forced the Celestials to abandon their alleged quest for multiversal supremacy, and instead opt to simply track down/kill all of the Reeds? I can't agree, because that was never stated. What was stated (by the Celestials themselves) is that killing the Council was their primary/sole goal:
Mad Celestial: "Success/triumph/access achieved. The final renegade/interloper/anarchist is here. I sense him/it. Engaging in annihilation/illimination. NOW."Multiversal domination never seemed like the Celestials' intent. Ever. It could have been, but I don't see why killing every single member of the Council (a task they literally went out of their way to accomplish) would have taken so much precedence...
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Or there can be a third option : Adult Franklin used some(not all) of the blue orb's power , which enabled him to destroy that other Celestial completely . He used it in such an amount , so that enough was left to recharge Galactus as well .
There can be multiple options WHEN ONE SPECULATES, but I think keeping things within a certain frame is important to the efficacy of interpreting events properly. Although Galan and I have disagreed in the past, I think we try our best to base our decisions on what has been shown or explicitly stated on panel. And like I said, Hickman and Epting specifically created a scene that shows AF extracting the orb from his body at the precise moment he chose to utilize its power.
Again, here are the solid facts:
1) AF acquires the orb from YF
2) AF extracts the same orb to resurrect Galactus
Those facts are indisputable.
Now, by your logic, the orb could have enhanced AF's power level simply because he was exposed to it. If someone else chooses to SPECULATE even further, he/she could say that the orb similarly empowered Galactus as well. They could even say that Galactus was using all of YF's powers since he was the recipient of the orb right? See what I'm getting at here? Speculation can take you to the moon and back! lol That's why we try to go by the solid facts.
Originally posted by Utrigita
I think AF drew it out from himself, just like YF did.
Off-panel, Galactus then withdrew YF's orb from himself and shared some of it with his other heralds.
Starfire: "Damn, that's some good s%@&!"
Galactus: "Indeed. Without it, I couldn't possibly beat that Celestial! Brought me back to life too -- just like Frosty!"
Silver Surfer: "Hey! Let me have some! I want to be all-powerful too!"
YF: "Wow. It's like the amp that keeps on giving! Who's awesome? Me! It's me! I.. AM... AWESOME!!!"
Originally posted by Doon
There can be multiple options WHEN ONE SPECULATES, but I think keeping things within a certain frame is important to the efficacy of interpreting events properly. Although Galan and I have disagreed in the past, I think we try our best to base our decisions on what has been shown or explicitly stated on panel. And like I said, Hickman and Epting specifically created a scene that shows AF extracting the orb from his body at the precise moment he chose to utilize its power.Again, here are the solid facts:
1) AF acquires the orb from YF
2) AF extracts the same orb to resurrect GalactusThose facts are indisputable.
Now, by your logic, the orb could have enhanced AF's power level simply because he was exposed to it. If someone else chooses to SPECULATE even further, he/she could say that the orb similarly empowered Galactus as well. They could even say that Galactus was using all of YF's powers since he was the recipient of the orb right? See what I'm getting at here? Speculation can take you to the moon and back! lol That's why we try to go by the solid facts.
Don't worry , the Mad Eson making Galactus howl:
has convinced me that Eson was (considerably) stronger than the other Mad Celestials .
Based on that I have already changed my opinion . Adult Franklin wasn't amped by young Franklin .
Originally posted by Doon
Off-panel, Galactus then withdrew YF's orb from himself and shared some of it with his other heralds.Starfire: "Damn, that's some good s%@&!"
Galactus: "Indeed. Without it, I couldn't possibly beat that Celestial! Brought me back to life too -- just like Frosty!"
Silver Surfer: "Hey! Let me have some! I want to be all-powerful too!"YF: "Wow. It's like the amp that keeps on giving! Who's awesome? Me! It's me! I.. AM... AWESOME!!!"
My point is that I can understand why people have the impression that AF used some power from his younger self based on the way the power was given, saved and later reintroduced.
Originally posted by TheGodKillerThat's quite speculatory.
Or there can be a third option : Adult Franklin used some(not all) of the blue orb's power , which enabled him to destroy that other Celestial completely . He used it in such an amount , so that enough was left to recharge Galactus as well .
What we saw happen is Franklin take the orb of power into himself. When the time was right, he extracted it in order to resurrect Galactus. At no point was it stated/shown/alluded to that he was tapping the orb's power whilst combating the Celestials initially.
Don't get me wrong, I understand where you're coming from (I used to think the same thing) but there is simply no way to prove it.
Originally posted by TheGodKillerYou can stop posting that oversized scan now. I know what you are talking about--you've posting it like 3 times on the same page.
As far as the BEFORE-AFTER issue is concerned....yeah you're right , that was my bad .
The scan itself however implies that the Mad Celestials , upon first entering the Bridge , did so with the intention of multiversal conquest . These statements :Bighead Reed : "They want the Council as a staging area for conquest ."
Mad Celestial : "This place leads to all others . We would have all of it...."
Anyway, you're suggesting that the Celestials originally set out to conquer the multiverse, but ultimately settled with destroying the Council of Reeds alone? Considering those equate to infinitely different goals, that is a hard pill for me to swallow. When you look at the entire context of the story, destroying the Council of Reeds seemed to always be the Celestials' primary intent, with any other agendas taking the back burner--hence their comments when they found 616 Reed: "SUCCESS ACHIEVED. THE FINAL RENEGADE IS HERE..."
Success achieved.
Originally posted by TheGodKillerI disagree. Taking ALL context of the story into consideration (not just a single comment), destroying the Council ALWAYS seemed to be what the Celestials were most concerned with. Hell, not only did they go out of their way to 'acquire' every Reed, but they would even give other characters a chance to live even if they were helping the Reeds (they gave both Doom and kid Franklin the option to 'step aside and live', after all)--that doesn't sound like the methods of multiversal conquerors to me... They ONLY seemed to care about slaying the Reeds.
seem to suggest that their ORIGINAL INTENT was to take over all of the multiverse(what else could it have been , considering that the Bridge is a pocket space which lies between all realities) .
Killing every member of the Council would have taken precedence , mainly because of the Council's defiance towards the Celestials's demands to kneel before them and gain favor , and then the Reeds' counterattack which reduced Celestial numbers to 4 . Combine the fact that they were [b]critically endangered plus the fact that it was the Reeds who made them critically endangered to begin with, plus their own madness , and we get hardcore vengeance . [/B]
Additionally, you seem to be of the opinion that the Celestials' numbers diminished significantly from the time they first encountered the Council, to the time they arrived near earth. You happen to know what their original numbers were? Because the way I see it, even just those 4 remaining Celestials would have been able to conquer the multiverse without much opposition, if that would have been their primary goal--especially if they merged. I can't think of many other beings below Eternity who would be capable of casually one-shotting Galactus amped by 4 worlds. The merged Celestial would have also been FAR superior to even adult Franklin--a universal reality manipulator. So yeah... /shrug
Originally posted by TheGodKillerJust saw this. Cool beans. 👆
has convinced me that Eson was (considerably) stronger than the other Mad Celestials .Based on that I have already changed my opinion . Adult Franklin wasn't amped by young Franklin .
Originally posted by Galan007
That's quite speculatory.What we saw happen is Franklin take the orb of power into himself. When the time was right, he extracted it in order to resurrect Galactus. At no point was it stated/shown/alluded to that he was tapping the orb's power whilst combating the Celestials initially.
Don't get me wrong, I understand where you're coming from (I used to think the same thing) but there is simply no way to prove it.
Originally posted by Galan007
You can stop posting that oversized scan now. I know what you are talking about--you've posting it like 3 times on the same page.Anyway, you're suggesting that the Celestials originally set out to conquer the multiverse, but ultimately settled with destroying the Council of Reeds alone? Considering those equate to infinitely different goals, that is a hard pill for me to swallow. When you look at the entire context of the story, destroying the Council of Reeds seemed to always be the Celestials' primary intent, with any other agendas taking the back burner--hence Eson's comment when he found 616 Reed: "SUCCESS ACHIEVED. THE FINAL RENEGADE IS HERE..."
Success achieved.
Originally posted by Galan007
I disagree. Taking ALL context of the story into consideration (not just a single comment), destroying the Council ALWAYS seemed to be what the Celestials were most concerned with. Hell, not only did they go out of their way to 'acquire' every Reed, but they would even give other characters a chance to live even if they were helping the Reeds (they gave both Doom and kid Franklin the option to 'step aside and live', after all)--that doesn't sound like the methods of multiversal conquerors to me... They ONLY seemed to care about slaying the Reeds.
Originally posted by Galan007
Additionally, you seem to be of the opinion that the Celestials' numbers diminished significantly from the time they first encountered the Council, to the time they arrived near earth. You happen to know what their original numbers were? Because the way I see it, even just those 4 remaining Celestials would have been able to conquer the multiverse without much opposition, if that would have been their primary goal--especially if they merged. I can't think of many other beings below Eternity who would be capable of casually one-shotting Galactus amped by 4 worlds. /shrug
Originally posted by TheGodKillerNo, what you're talking about is a single statement in lieu of ALL context.
Again , I am talking about their original intention , Galan .
Tell me , originally did those Celestials want to use the Bridge as a staging area for conquest or not ?
Also , did not one of those Celestials themselves claim "This place leads to all others.We would have all of it." ?
Did that same Celestial not then demand that the Reeds bow down and gain forgiveness/favor ?
Does the above statement from said Celestial imply that they invaded the Bridge solely for the purpose of eliminating the Reeds ?The point here is that originally their intent was portrayed as using the Bridge as a staging area for conquering all there is . Hickman often speaks in riddles , in his stories , but in this case one can't any clearer than that . It was shown that the Bridge was a pocket space between all realities , and it was shown that the Celestials originally wanted to use it because "this place leads to all others, we would have all of it" . Again , if their primary goal was just the elimination of the Reeds , then that Arishem-wannabe wouldn't have demanded that Reeds "kneel and gain favor/forgiveness" .
That bigheaded telepath Reed would have made an observation something like this :
"Madness...Madness....They have invaded the Council for the elimination of every Reed throughout existence.....something about our work here repulses them.They've noticed me."
The entire story taken into context, painted a picture that the Celestials were concerned with eradicating the Reeds FIRST. Any other agendas they may have had certainly didn't take precedence over killing the Council of Reeds. As the Celestials said: "SUCCESS ACHIEVED. THE FINAL RENEGADE IS HERE..." Killing the Reeds was their primary task/purpose/goal.
Originally posted by TheGodKillerDespite that comment, the Celestials never attempted to conquer the multiverse--they ONLY went after the Reeds. That's it. I'm not saying multiversal conquest wasn't one of their goals--I'm just saying that on panel, it was secondary to destroying the Reeds.
I understand that Hickman has tried to imply in the SHIELD arc that the "Solve Everything" objective/idea/concept is what apparently drives a Celestial mad , and that could be used to explain the Mad Celestials' apparent obsession with the Reeds , but how does that explain away the original panels in which the statements of both the Bighead Reed and the Mad-Arishem imply that the 4280-Celestials intended to conquer all realities ?
Sidenote: I LOVE how Hickman used SHIELD to set up events in F4/FF. A genius, he is. 👆
Originally posted by TheGodKillerYou're adding a lot of opinion to this. Not going to fall into that circle.
Except for the fact that by declaring all out war for conquest on a reality , they would also invoke the ire of their alternate brethren from , who should logically go on to confront their mad counterparts . Think about it Galan , 4 Mad Celestials would actually try and invade just one universe , never mind the entire multiverse , and get away without having to engage an entire race of beings similar to themselves ? Why exactly did Hickman not portray it that way : because of the plot . It is quite surprising though that the Dreaming Celestial wasn't portrayed , seeing how Hickman loves to incorporate plot points from other writers' stories into his own , and the Dreaming Celestial along with the rest of the Host had made an appearance just a couple of issues prior , in Uncanny X-Men .
F4/FF takes place in current Marvel, so the Dreaming Celestial should have already 'ascended' with the Fulcrum. That's likely why Hickman didn't use him.
Originally posted by TheGodKillerThat man made weapon was the most power device ever created by man--a device capable of destroying alternate Beyonders--a device built by multiple Reeds (all of which possess an intelligence =/> 616 Reed.) Hardly a low showing for the Celestials to be split up by it. Hell, MC2 Reed once built a device in the Baxter Building that was capable of owning LT and ALL of the abstracts with their own energies. Don't hate on man made weaponry--especially if it's built by Reed. 😉 Furthermore, individual Mad Celestials tanked attacks from alternate UNs/IGs. Sol's Anvil was a true dues-ex-machina.
Btw , a man-made weapon was able to split them back into 3 , and could have gone on to (possibly) destroy them as well , had it not threatened to ravage Earth as well . So , I doubt that 4 Mad Celestials on their own could actually conquer the multiverse .
Anyway, Voltron Celestial >>> Galactus amped by 4 worlds = Franklin(more or less.) If powers on THAT level were NOTHING to Voltron, I really don't see any other character(s) stopping it. /shrug
Originally posted by Galan007
No, what you're talking about is a single statement in lieu of ALL context.The entire story taken into context, painted a picture that the Celestials were concerned with eradicating the Reeds FIRST. Any other agendas they may have had certainly didn't take precedence over killing the Council of Reeds. As the Celestials said: "SUCCESS ACHIEVED. THE FINAL RENEGADE IS HERE..."
Originally posted by Galan007
Despite that comment, the Celestials never attempted to conquer the multiverse--they ONLY went after the Reeds. That's it. I'm not saying multiversal conquest wasn't one of their goals--I'm just saying that on panel, it was secondary to destroying the Reeds.Sidenote: I LOVE how Hickman used SHIELD to set up events in F4/FF. A genius, he is. 👆
Originally posted by Galan007
You're adding a lot of opinion to this. Not going to fall into that circle.F4/FF takes place in current Marvel, so the Dreaming Celestial should have already 'ascended' with the Fulcrum. That's likely why Hickman didn't use him.
Originally posted by Galan007
That man made weapon was the most power device ever created by man--a device capable of destroying alternate Beyonders--a device built by multiple Reeds (all of which possess an intelligence =/> 616 Reed.) Hardly a low showing for the Celestials to be split up by it. Hell, MC2 Reed once built a device in the Baxter Building that was capable of owning LT and ALL of the abstracts with their own energies. Don't hate on man made weaponry--especially if it's built be Reed. 😉Furthermore, individual Mad Celestials tanked attacks from alternate UNs/IGs. Sol's Anvil was a true dues-ex-machina.
Originally posted by TheGodKillerI have always felt it was one of their intentions... Just not their primary intention.
So you admit that multiversal conquest was a goal of theirs(even if not primary) ? As far as the rest of this portion of your post is concerned , I have addressed that above .
I feel confident in saying this, because if multiversal conquest would have been their primary goal, they would have tried to conquer it at some point--but they didn't. Instead, they went out of their way to kill all Reeds FIRST.
Originally posted by TheGodKillerDon't have proof, but it certainly makes sense. After all, since Tiamut evolved/ascended during the Eternals story, the only way he would still be on earth is if said events took place before his ascension.
So , that Uncanny X-Men arc didn't take place in current Marvel ? Does it take place some point before Tiamut's ascension ? If so , proof in the form of on-panel evidence or writers' statements would be appreciated .
Originally posted by TheGodKiller'course it does. Those were the smartest beings the multiverse had to offer, after all.
Not really hating on man-made weapons , just pointing out that if the smartest humans throughout the multiverse are capable of making something that can take down a Voltron Celestial(possessing the combined power of 4 Celestials) , it shouldn't imply that such a Voltron Celestial could easily conquer the multiverse .
Originally posted by TheGodKillerReed himself said that the intelligence of his alternate versions was equal to, and in some instances greater than, his own:
As far as alternate Reeds having an intelligence >= that of 616 Reed , I wouldn't be too sure of it , seeing how it was 616 Reed who literally pulled out those entropy guns from his closet(he went back to 616 to get them) seems to imply to me that they are at least peers in terms of intellect , and at most , Reed's intellect is superior to theirs .
I doubt he'd make such a statement in front of his rogues if it weren't true.
Originally posted by TheGodKillerRegardless of the Reeds being destroyed by the UN, the Celestial they targeted still tanked the initial nullification energy-burst... Which is quite impressive.
As far as the UNs go , when were the UNs used when those Celestials first invaded the Council? The first time I saw a UN used by a Reed , he ended up nullifying himself . To my knowledge , no Mad Celestial ever tanked a UN .
Here's a Celestial tanking a UN blast during the first battle:
The Reeds who used the UN simply weren't focused enough to use it without destroying themselves in the process. Doesn't mean that initial blast was any less 'nullify-ie'.
Originally posted by TheGodKillerFact still remains that a n00b IG wielder is capable of owning abstract entities--like Eternity--with a casual gesture. Yet an alternate Reed who was well-accustomed with his IG, was unable to defeat the Celestials with [albeit momentary] full access to his universe. Pretty impressive for the Celestials, imo. /shrug
As far as the IGs go.....that issue , I believe , has already been discussed in the IG vs Celestials thread . Two out of three of those IGs were non-functional , and the very instance that the 3rd IG got activated , it easily merked 4 Celestials , and the only reason that its wielder couldn't get the job done , was because the Reed whose body was being used as a portal to access that IG's native universe , got destabilized and killed , rendering the IG inactive .
Originally posted by Galan007
Don't have proof, but it certainly makes sense. After all, since Tiamut evolved/ascended during the Eternals story, the only way he would still be on earth is if said events took place before his ascension.
Originally posted by Galan007
'course it does. Those were the smartest beings the multiverse had to offer, after all.
Originally posted by Galan007
Reed himself said that the intelligence of his alternate versions was equal to, and in some instances greater than, his own:I doubt he'd make such a statement in front of his rogues if it weren't true.
Originally posted by Galan007
Regardless of the Reeds being destroyed by the UN, the Celestial they targeted still tanked the initial nullification energy-burst... Which is quite impressive.Here's a Celestial tanking a UN blast during the first battle:
The Reeds who used the UN simply weren't focused enough to use it without destroying themselves in the process. Doesn't mean that initial blast was any less 'nullify-ie'.
Originally posted by Galan007
Fact still remains that a n00b IG wielder is capable of owning abstract entities--like Eternity--with a casual gesture. Yet an alternate Reed who was well-accustomed with his IG, was unable to defeat the Celestials with [albeit momentary] full access to his universe. Pretty impressive for the Celestials, imo. /shrug
Also , as far the "n00b IG wielder is capable of owning abstract entities" claim in regards to the Council's IGs is concerned , what makes you think that 616 IG==its alternate counterpart ?
Because , IIRC , then in F4#605.1 , the Nazi Reed ended up killing everything in his universe with the IG's power , however , for some strange reason he couldn't restore all that he destroyed . And that same "n00b IG wielder" also undid all the damage that the IG had wrecked prior . So this leads me to confidently proclaim that 616 IG!= its alternate counterparts , and that in all likelihood , 616 IG > its alternate counterparts .
