Young Franklin VS Adult Franklin

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Smartest humans in the multiverse == smartest beings in the multiverse ?

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Meh , that statement doesn't really mean much when we have an on-panel feat of Reed outperforming his counterparts(the universal entropy gun incident) , in the intellect/intelligence/thinking department , while those other Reeds , to my knowledge , apparently don't have any such feat(except for 616-Reed's hyperbole) .

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Was that Celestial depicted alive in subsequent panels ? Also , considering how it took 5 UNs on the Council's part to kill an alternate Galactus , I doubt that those are equal to their 616 counterparts .

We never saw the Reeds use those UNs against that Galactus. We only saw them BRANDISH the UNs. Remember the original Galactus saga? Reed merely had to SHOW Galactus the UN, and he tucked his tail and fled earth. Intimidation is key. We never saw those UNs fired, therefore it is illogical to assume they ever were.

To the contrary, we physically SAW the Celestials tank initial blasts from the UNs. Uber feats, imo.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Fact also remains that for the momentary time period that , that Reed managed to activate his IG , he owned 4 Celestials , and he didn't go on to own the rest , because the Reed who was acting as the portal to that IG's native universe . Also , in a What If , Doom's gems got cracked and drained of power , in order to beat the entire Celestial race , so I guess those What If Celestials were == the Mad Celestials ?

Only point is that even with momentary full access to his universe, Reed was unable to take out the Ceelstials with his IG. It's a good feat for the Celestials any way you cut it.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Also , as far the "n00b IG wielder is capable of owning abstract entities" claim in regards to the Council's IGs is concerned , what makes you think that 616 IG==its alternate counterpart ?
Because , IIRC , then in F4#605.1 , the Nazi Reed ended up killing everything in his universe with the IG's power , however , for some strange reason he couldn't restore all that he destroyed . And that same "n00b IG wielder" also undid all the damage that the IG had wrecked prior . So this leads me to confidently proclaim that 616 IG!= its alternate counterparts , and that in all likelihood , 616 IG > its alternate counterparts .

So your contention is that the 616 IG's infinite power is more infinite than the alternate IG's infinite power? Yeah, not even going to respond to that seriously.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller

Smartest humans in the multiverse == smartest beings in the multiverse ?

I'm pretty sure that MC2 Reed has the greatest invention feat in all of marvelverses so wouldn't surprise if a group was a Reeds was the smartest collective in the multiverse.

Originally posted by Galan007
So your contention is that the 616 IG's infinite power is more infinite than the alternate IG's infinite power? Yeah, not even going to respond to that seriously.

This is based on a "real life" theory by the way.
http://io9.com/5873581/the-odd-genius-who-showed-that-one-infinity-was-greater-than-another

Now add to the fact we're comparing ALTERNATE reality IGs and Celestials and the water gets even more muddy.

Originally posted by Galan007
Reeds have always been portrayed as such, yes. You know of anyone else who has built tech capable of mucking with LT in any way/shape/form?

Originally posted by Galan007

Ah, so you believe Reed was speaking in hyperbole to his rogues? You've been solid up until now, don't start blatantly ignoring on panel happenings.

Originally posted by Galan007

You're starting to fall apart. Relax.

Only point is that even with momentary full access to his universe, Reed was unable to take out the Ceelstials with his IG. It's a good feat for the Celestials any way you cut it.

That Reed only had his IG functional for a momentary period of time , and in that time-period , he merked 4 Celestials with ease . In fact , IIRC , when he was with the FF and Doom , he was adamant on going back to his home universe so that he could activate his IG . IMO, that clearly implies that , once his IG was functional again , he would have put a stop to the Celestials , once and for all .

Originally posted by Galan007

You aren't remembering correctly. That Reed never tried, and failed, to undo what he had done. He never even said that he couldn't undo it--all he said is that the nexus point which housed the Council was the best place in existence from which to build himself a new future, as it exists outside of any/all universal 'confines'. More importantly, he also said that his IG contained INFINITE power:

"What happens when you give a God an infinite canvas and all the time in the universe? Eventually, he has an idea."

So your contention is that the 616 IG's infinite power is more infinite than the alternate IG's infinite power? Yeah, not even going to respond to that seriously.

Excpet that a "noob IG wielder"(according to you) , was able to restore everything with just a snap of their finger .
You are basically implying that it never "occurred" to him to restore his reality , when the narration makes it clear he had "all the time in the universe" . Are you seriously trying to insinuate that a guy with Reed's type of intellect(combined with some his own universe's Doom's intellect) , couldn't figure out in all that time , that he simply could simply reverse all the damage he caused ? Because that doesn't make any sense .
What does make sense is the clear implication from those panels , that the IG , for some reason , couldn't undo the destruction it caused , therefore the Reed , using the Bridge , decided to create a new future by "solving everything" .
As far as 616 and alternate IGs are concerned , my opinion has always been that 616 IG > alternate IG . I have seen your debates with both MrMaster and zopzop regarding this issue , so I doubt that you would want to argue that with me . Your opinions are respected and welcome , nonetheless .

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
By mucking up the LT , you mean temporarily bfring it ? In that case no .
What I do have , is the Amulet of the Ancient One(which IIRC , originally belonged to Agamotto) , whose power the LT had to clandestinely draw upon , in order to battle Protege .

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
What on-panel showings ? All we have is a claim from Reed , and in that too , it is clearly mentioned that their intelligence is greater only in "some instances" , and the exact context behind said "instances" is never revealed .
In the succeeding part of your post , you tell me that we never "saw" event X happen . Seeing how 616-Reed has a feat of intelligence under his belt , which puts him above the rest of the Council , as compared to mere hyperbole for the other Reeds from 616-Reed himself , I'd say that since we never "saw" the other Reeds , individually(I'd say that collectively/in groups they could perhaps overtake 616-Reed) , outperform 616-Reed , therefore its safe to say that 616 Reed >= his alternate reality counterparts from the Council .

Regardless, said Reeds were responsible for Sol's Anvil--the Celestial buster. Tech 616 Reed was amazed by. That good enough?

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
How exactly ?

That Reed only had his IG functional for a momentary period of time , and in that time-period , he merked 4 Celestials with ease . In fact , IIRC , when he was with the FF and Doom , he was adamant on going back to his home universe so that he could activate his IG . IMO, that clearly implies that , once his IG was functional again , he would have put a stop to the Celestials , once and for all .

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Excpet that a "noob IG wielder"(according to you) , was able to restore everything with just a snap of their finger .
You are basically implying that it never "occurred" to him to restore his reality , when the narration makes it clear he had "all the time in the universe" . Are you seriously trying to insinuate that a guy with Reed's type of intellect(combined with some his own universe's Doom's intellect) , couldn't figure out in all that time , that he simply could simply reverse all the damage he caused ? Because that doesn't make any sense .
What does make sense is the clear implication from those panels , that the IG , for some reason , couldn't undo the destruction it caused , therefore the Reed , using the Bridge , decided to create a new future by "solving everything" .
As far as 616 and alternate IGs are concerned , my opinion has always been that 616 IG > alternate IG . I have seen your debates with both MrMaster and zopzop regarding this issue , so I doubt that you would want to argue that with me . Your opinions are respected and welcome , nonetheless .

That aside, I am done debating the IG. It will only serve to derail this thread even more. In current continuity, I believe Hickman painted a picture that all IGs are equal, but that's neither here nor there...

Originally posted by zopzop

You were saying?

This is based on a "real life" theory by the way.
http://io9.com/5873581/the-odd-genius-who-showed-that-one-infinity-was-greater-than-another

Now add to the fact we're comparing ALTERNATE reality IGs and Celestials and the water gets even more muddy.

Anyway, what you can't prove, I'm afraid, is that the 'levels of infinity' concept applies to the IGs. Sure you can speculate, but speculation(especially yours)=/=proof. We were told an alternate IG contains infinite power, with no mention that some IGs are more powerful than others--therefore, I'll take the word "infinite" at face value until I have a reason not to.

Originally posted by Galan007
That is in no way/shape/form comparable to the instance I mentioned.

Originally posted by Galan007

So you wanted to see these Reeds each build tech that puts them above 616 Reed (despite 616 Reed outright saying they were his intellectual equals) before you'll take his word as fact? I find it nonsensical that you're picking and choosing which comments from Reed you believe, and which you don't.

Originally posted by Galan007

Regardless, said Reeds were responsible for Sol's Anvil--the Celestial buster. Tech 616 Reed was amazed by. That good enough?

Originally posted by Galan007

He could have beaten the Celestials within his own universe. IGs contain infinite power (even alternate ones.) Infinite power>Celestials. I am certainly not saying that Celestials are superior to an IG wielder. What I am saying is that the Celestials' ability to withstand a single attack from an IG wielder is still a HUGE feat.

Originally posted by Galan007

As the scans clearly state: that Reed wanted to build himself a new future--he wanted to erase his previous mistakes. This can be interpreted a few ways...
a.) He literally wanted to create himself a new future with the IG.
or
b.) By choosing to aid the Council, that Reed felt like he had a fresh start. He was now able to journey throughout the multiverse, helping the Council fix problems they encountered. In a sense, that would allow him, in his mind, to erase his previous mistakes, AND start a new future for himself (many believe good actions outweigh bad actions.) <---That seems like the more logical interpretation now that I read the scene more. Either way, he never tried, and failed, to fix the damage he caused to his universe. That's all I'm saying.

Originally posted by Galan007

That aside, I am done debating the IG. It will only serve to derail this thread even more. In current continuity, I believe Hickman painted a picture that all IGs are equal, but that's neither here nor there...

great convo goin on 👆

for me adult frankie wins easily

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Sorry , but that's just the way it is . When actual , canonical feats(mainstram) are involved , they trump all hyperbole .

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Which is exactly why I asked for individual feats , not a collective effort .

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Those scans also blatantly state that he had all the time in the universe . Within that time , with the kind of intellect a Reed is supposed to have(and he had his reality's Doom's smart skills as well) he could have figured out that he could simply undo the damage done by his IG . He didn't , so that implies that an alternate IG is NOT on the same level as the 616 version , and is in all likelihood , lower .

"What happens when you give a God an infinite canvas and all the time in the universe? Eventually, he has an idea." *Enter the Council of Reeds* In fact, that statement/scene almost makes it seem like that Reed was a co-founder of the entire Council. That must have been the "idea" he came up with. Hmm...

[edit]
Yes. That Reed (the bearded one) WAS a founder of the Council, so my interpretation of the scene in question must be correct:

Either way, your interpretation of the aforementioned scene is a poor one. Like I said before: that Reed never tried, and failed, to fix the damage he caused to his universe. In fact, using YOUR logic, it was merely an unsupported hyperbolic statement (told you it would come back to bite you.) 🙂

Originally posted by Galan007
So anything Reed says that isn't backed with feats is now hyperbole? Horrid logic. That will come back to bite you.

Originally posted by Galan007

The Council was only featured in a few issues, and in those issues they built a weapon more powerful than any other--a weapon that 616 Reed was amazed by--yet that still isn't enough? Jesus.

Originally posted by Galan007

You are taking that statement HUGELY out of context--I expected better from you.

"What happens when you give a God an infinite canvas and all the time in the universe? Eventually, he has an idea." *Enter the Council of Reeds* In fact, that statement/scene almost makes it seem like that Reed was a co-founder of the entire Council. That must have been they "idea" he came up with. Hmm...

[edit]
Yes. That Reed (the bearded one) WAS a founder of the Council, so my interpretation of the scene in question must be correct:

Either way, your interpretation of the aforementioned scene is a poor one. Like I said before: that Reed never tried, and failed, to fix the damage he caused to his universe. In fact, using YOUR logic, it was merely an unsupported hyperbolic statement (told you it would come back to bite you.) 🙂

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Anything he states that is contradicted by CANON , MAINSTREAM feats , is at the very least considered hyperbole , and the most is considered a lie .
I don't see what's wrong with this sort of logic .

Hardly hyperbole. *shakes head*

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
So , still no individual feat of intelligence/intellect/thinking ability ?

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
As far as the bearded Nazi Reed's issue goes , that statement isn't hyperbolic at all , when we are clearly shown that that Reed was(for some reason) incapable of repairing the damage he caused. The ultimate idea he has , after pondering for all the time in the universe , is to go and form the Council with three other counterparts of himself .

Tbh, your conjecture/low-balling reflects a piss-poor description of the narration.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
He had not only his own intellect , he also some of Doom's brains in himself . He could have easily figured out sooner , rather than later , that he could simply restore everything back with the "God Hand" . Yet he didn't . What does that tell us ? That an alternate IG , is at least one tier below the 616 version .

Originally posted by Galan007
You realize Reed's statement ISN'T contradicted, right? He realized the Council members were his intellectual equals, and gave them their credit.

Hardly hyperbole. *shakes head*

Originally posted by Galan007

*sighs* The underlined portion is purely your own, entirely unsupported, conjecture. Said Reed never once tried, and failed, to restore his universe--such a notion wasn't so much as alluded to. I CHALLENGE you to PROVE otherwise. The "idea" he had was creating the Council of Reeds--an organization that would "solve everything" on a multiversal scale. That's it. His own universe became superfluous next to the Council's scope.

Tbh, your conjecture/low-balling reflects a piss-poor description of the narration.

Originally posted by Galan007
See above. This BS is getting old.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Except it is . 616 Reed's personal tech trumped most of the things that the Council was throwing at the Mad Celestials .

Sol's Anvil>>Voltron>>>Galactus amped by 4 worlds = Franklin(more or less.)

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Its already been addressed in prior posts . As I said before , I am not going to go around arguing in circles . Lets just stop this unnecessary argument , OK ?

I have proven the points I intended to prove . You can have the last word in our convo .

More on point, adult Franklin [still] wins.

Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah, I can copy/paste scans/links from other people too! Woohoo!

Anyway, what you can't prove, I'm afraid, is that the 'levels of infinity' concept applies to the IGs. Sure you can speculate, but speculation(especially yours)=/=proof. We were told an alternate IG contains infinite power, with no mention that some IGs are more powerful than others--therefore, I'll take the word "infinite" at face value until I have a reason not to.

616 IG != Alt Reality IGs. 616 characters != Alt reality characters. There is proof of 616 reality IG doing stuff that alt reality IGs weren't capable of.

Originally posted by zopzop
You were going on about one infinity being greater than another infinity and saying you didn't buy it. I gave you on panel proof from Marvel that such a thing is possible and canon (backed up by the 'real life' example Kubik's statement was based on).

Originally posted by Galan007
Again, because the story itself never referenced 'levels of infinity', or referenced IGs possessing varying levels of power, I have no choice but to take the alternate Reed's statement at face value. When he said "infinite", he meant it in the literal sense.

We've also seen the 616 IG do things alt reality IGs were supposedly incapable of doing (functioning out of it's native reality being the most important).

Originally posted by zopzop
But as we've seen, infinite doesn't mean anything. Because there are levels of infinity.

We've also seen the 616 IG do things alt reality IGs were supposedly incapable of doing (functioning out of it's native reality being the most important).

As for your other point: don't care about getting into it. That has nothing to do with what I said.

Originally posted by Galan007
You really think Hickman intended readers to have read a decadeS old issue so that they could apply it to a statement Reed made

If only you didn't wear tight pants and band tees.

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
It's like you understand my problem with this forum better than anyone.

If only you didn't wear tight pants and band tees.

Originally posted by Galan007

So anything Reed says that isn't backed with feats is now hyperbole?

Horrid logic.

He was dead wrong when he witnessed the real big bang on panel.

Just sayin, it can happen.

I'd count on writers making Reed say the right shit most of the time,
but sometimes a bone-head writer or plot,
can make even Reed say shit he shouldn't be saying.

Originally posted by zopzop

But as we've seen, infinite doesn't mean anything.

Because there are levels of infinity.

"There are infinities beyond your narrow limited perception."

I have 5 different Marvel titles where this is explicitly stated.

*edit* ... I actually have more than 5 ...
I'm also talking titles through out the years too, not just mid 90's shit.

Here's another: (2002)

"An Infinity beyond Infinity"