Originally posted by Endless Mike
Nope. See:
I said Midgard almost always refers to planet Earth, a single example of the opposite doesn't change that. (That's what "almost" means, that there are exceptions.) When Thor, Odin and others refer to Midgard or Midgardians they almost always mean Earth and Humans (respectively).
http://marvel.wikia.com/Midgard
Originally posted by Endless Mike
They are in separate dimensions. Traditional definitions of distance don't apply.Not necessarily. Odin would deliberately do what he could to prevent that from happening. It's also not as if Earth is the only place in the normal universe where Asgard can access and be accessed from.
Of course, that's why I used quotation marks. In MU there is, however, a concept of "distance" between dimensions. The godly realms of Earth-sphere should be "closer" to Earth than, say, to the Andromeda galaxy.
Originally posted by Endless Mike
Except I've already explained that:- His goal is to wipe out the entire nine worlds, which are all separate dimensions/universes. Not just Earth.
- There are multiple powerful gods and beings on Earth that could stop him if he tried directly attacking it.
- He wants to try to set up a plan or get a power where he can wipe out all of the 9 worlds at once. That's why he was attacking Asgard in the first place, to get the Eternal Flame.
Nope. Odin's a dick like that. Earth and humanity are implied to be partially his creation after all.
Also in the Infinity fight he later fixed all the damage he had caused.
As I already explained, there are many possible reasons for that. Those Skyfathers are just not as powerful as Odin, or they live in their own dimensions and don't care what happens to the normal universe like Odin does, or they fixed the damage afterwards...
Hell, how common are alien Skyfathers anyway?
How it is reasonable to ignore repeated on-panel feats and statements from reliable characters that have occurred throughout the characters' history because you personally think it doesn't make sense?
Comics lead to a lot of fridge logic if you overanalyze them. That doesn't mean you get to deny canon feats.
Comics are internally inconsistent, of course. Due to different writers, their different opinions about the characters, lack of knowledge of physics, plot-induced demands ("PIS"😉, and outright errors and mistakes, there will be paradoxes and contradictions all the time.
Speaking strictly from the logics point of view, as soon as there's a paradox within a system then the concept of "truth" becomes meaningless. We can describe what has happened on-panel in some comic book issue and consider it to be true, such as "In Spider-Man issue XX Spider-Man beat Hulk by hitting him with a truck". However, predictive propositions such as "If they fought and Spider-Man hit Hulk with a similar truck, Hulk would go down" cannot be deduced to be true or false.
So there are two possibilities. One can either take the logically sound stance and say that there's no point in arguing about comic book characters and their abilities at all since definite truth values cannot be assigned to them. Or one could take it a step further, and pick out a consistent set of feats and showings, and say that "This is this characters' power level, these other feats are outliers and contradictions".
Returning to the topic at hand, the most consistent power level for skyfathers is planetary/global. Since you presented a metaphor allow me to do the same: Imagine you're a kid in a room with a brightly-coloured small snail or slug in the middle. You would like to protect that slug. But, there's another kid in the room with big boots who would love nothing more than to stomp on and crush that snail, indeed being hellbent on doing it. You wrestle with this other kid, rolling and stomping around the room like crazy. If this other kid, even for a second, gets close to that slug he would crush it. And you can very easily crush it yourself if you make a little mistake or your opponent causes you to do one. On occasion you would have to leave the room to eat or sleep, leaving the slug unprotected. In addition, there's another dozen of similar good kid - bad kid pairs in that room, each focused on either killing or protecting that very same slug. Amidst all that chaos, could that slug really survive? No, it wouldn't. Now, for someone with a "galaxy-busting" power level, a single planet is MUCH MUCH MUCH more easily crushed than a slug is for a kid with big boots. Earth would have no chance at all. But since it's not destroyed and recreated daily in MU, Surtur and others very likely don't have such powers.
Trying to fit together a "galaxy-busting" power level for skyfathers and the Earth's continued survival in a consistent way would necessitate a very convoluted series of explanations and excuses, some of which you have presented in your posts. As I mentioned earlier, this is not wrong in fact since there are no absolute "true" or "false" when it comes to comic book statements. However, I prefer a simpler explanation: Earth survives because the evil skyfather-level entities (and by implication their good counterparts such as Odin) do not have galaxy-scale powers. Occam's razor at work.
Originally posted by Endless Mike
Now I know you're just trolling. They never used planet-destroying attacks on the likes of Thing and Colossus, and the strength of those two is way above just lifting trains.The fact you think lifting a train is Thing or Colossus' maximum is hilarious in and of itself, but what makes you think the planet is the inconsistent one instead of the lower feats?
No trolling at all, this is just another example of me requiring internal consistency. Marvel heroes have a pretty nicely continuous set of power levels. Spider-Man is slightly weaker than Venom, Venom is slightly weaker than Ms. Marvel, Ms. Marvel is slightly weaker than Colossus, Colossus is slightly weaker than Namor (under water), Namor (under water) is slightly weaker than Thor, and so on. Unless, for example, Thor can defeat BILLIONS AND BILLIONS of Namors underwater at the same time, or Ms. Marvel can defeat BILLIONS AND BILLIONS of Venoms at the same time, then the herald-level heroes such as Thor cannot consistently have planet-busting powers.
Colossus has very rarely demonstrated anything above "train-lifting" levels of physical strength. And he has been straining to perform feats at that scale.
Originally posted by Endless Mike
So say some random shmuck with a spaceship armed with a planetbusting laser suddenly warps into orbit and blasts the Earth, you think that would be a smart idea with the Skyfathers around? You think they wouldn't bitchsmack him and then fix the Earth?
The fear of retribution plays very little role in the decisions of crazy gods of destruction.
Originally posted by Endless Mike
And even if he did somehow manage to destroy the Earth with just his base power (and avoided the subsequent ass-kicking by all of the gods and Skyfathers who survived), that wouldn't accomplish much, because he would still have the rest of the 616 universe to deal with, as well as the other 8 dimensions.
So, you are saying that Surtur with his base power (without the Eternal Flame) might not be able to destroy Earth? While you maintain that Odin has the power to destroy galaxies? Meaning that at base levels he's less to Odin than a crippled mosquito is to a guy in a bee suit?
Originally posted by Endless Mike
You forgot rogue Celestials from other universes, as seen in the FF arc.
No, I didn't. I clearly specified that I meant the 616 celestials.
Originally posted by Endless Mike
What's funny is that he was later retconned to be half of a cosmic cube, and Galactus and the others were just playing with him to make him seem stronger than he was.
When the Beyonder was retconned, his galaxy-busting feat was retconned too. It was all an illusion. So while he arguably remained skyfather level or above he no longer had the power to destroy actual galaxies.
I'm with Magnon on this. Those "evidence" that skyfathers can destroy galaxies isn't evidence. No one doubts Galactus destroyed several star systems in Annihilation cause we downright saw him unleash a massive blast that destroyed everything in it's path.
Regarding the Odin vs Infinity fight, the whole thing is on Youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3u5_Py8AkBs
Evidence contradicting Odin's galaxy destroying capabilities-
1) About 1:45 when Odin makes his allege galaxy busting feat, they even show you a wide shot of parts of the galaxy in that exact same panel and it looks pretty intact to me.
2) Immediately after this scientist are commenting and from what I gather it basically says they spot Odin and Infinity's energy signatures. So they can spot those two in the distance but not multiple galaxies getting destroyed huh? That would be like me being able to spot a boy in China from an airplane, but not noticing that China itself just got blown up. Make sense. 🙄
3) Those scientists end their conversation in very big text "such a force can DESTROY THE EARTH!" So apparently Earth's durability > multiple galaxies' durability. Right...🙄
4) We were shown repeatedly throughout that fight that Infinity was only destroying one planet at a time. Yet he was able to overwhelm Odin. A planet buster overwhelms a galaxy buster? Yeah makes more sense.
5) Odin is the good guy here. Why would he be destroying galaxies?! Before this we only saw Infinity destroying a few planets, then supposedly Odin comes in and destroys some galaxies? Why would he do that? To help speed up Infinity's path of destruction?
6) Biggest contradiction of the bunch. This all happened BEFORE their fight even got started. Anyone else see what's so illogical about this?
Now evidence supporting Odin galaxy destroying capabilities-
"Though planets crumble... though galaxies fall... I vow by Asgard's golden gates... the prize shall ne'er be thine" - Odin
That's it? A statement about Odin's determination that happens to have the words galaxies fall in it? Does anyone have a scan of Jonah Jameson mentioning planets getting destroyed or a wheelchair bound Xavier saying "jump" and "moon" in the same sentence? Through that evidence we can deduce that Jameson can destroy planets and a wheelchair bound Xavier can jump to the moon.
Regarding this Walker fellow, I looked up his respect thread and only thing that was confirmed was that he killed all living beings in his galaxy. Nothing to say how fast he did it or what method he used. And if you insist this is evidence of galaxy destroying capabilities, then that also means Garth Ennis's Punisher is a planet+ buster.
Regarding heralds and BRB destroying planets, okay here's what I've seen from these guys so provide me with scans if I'm wrong. Silver Surfer destroyed a planet in Annihilation after he got boosted by Galactus and when he and another guy were unleashing their energy at the same time.
Terrax splits planets with his cosmic axe. Considering the guy puts all his power in that thing, that's not too surprising.
BRB destroyed a small planet (or was it a small moon) in his fight with Stardust when he took Stardust's weapon (don't know what it's called) and slammed it together with Stormbreaker. The other time I saw he had his shipped Scuttlebutt launch a bunch of nukes a planet, so not his actually power level.
So basically -
boosted Surfer combining energy with enemy = destroyed planet
Terrax putting most of his power in his weapon = split planet
BRB putting his and Stardust's weapons together = destroyed planet or moon
Okay looks like it takes a lot of effort for these guys to actually destroy a planet.
Like I've said, I've seen many decent arguments refuting every single galaxy busting feat of Odin's. I've also seen some that seem to indicate he has blown up or could blow up galaxies. If there are 10,000 star systems in the milky way with life (out of say 100-200 billion), and each has 10 skyfathers (just to keep it simple), that means there are 100,000 beings in one galaxy that can destroy it, and multiple other galaxies. Out of those 100,000, two have never fought in the galaxy and destroyed it yet? Really? Now multiply that by the billions and trillions of galaxies in the known universe. The universe wouldn't even exist anymore. Especially since Odin and whoever supposedly fought and destroyed many galaxies that they WEREN'T EVEN FROM!!!! according to some people here. So why aren't other skyfathers fighting in another galaxy destroying ours? (Andromeda for instance might have another 100,000 skyfathers, which is relatively nearby).
Sounds kind of preposterous to me. And even regardless of whether he has destroyed a galaxy in the past, I can 100% guarantee you he never will do so again in a Marvel comic book. Those days are long gone (if they even existed).
Originally posted by Magnon
When the Beyonder was retconned, his galaxy-busting feat was retconned too. It was all an illusion. So while he arguably remained skyfather level or above he no longer had the power to destroy actual galaxies.
After his retcon , Beyonder and Molecule Man engaged in a battle which warped reality on a trans-multiversal scale .
Mr Master has shown me the scans , and the LT and other Abstracts were witnessing the battle , which seems to indicate that this feat is more than just narrative hyperbole .
There was also an omniversal agency which documented the damage caused by the battle and it seems to further confirm it .
Don't really know whether the feat really stands today or not .
Originally posted by eaebiakuya
Guys, who is his Walker guy ? Anyone can post his feat ?
The very first scans are of him offering the the souls of the life forms from his galaxy that he killed to Mistress Death.
Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
Like I've said, I've seen many decent arguments refuting every single galaxy busting feat of Odin's. I've also seen some that seem to indicate he has blown up or could blow up galaxies. If there are 10,000 star systems in the milky way with life (out of say 100-200 billion), and each has 10 skyfathers (just to keep it simple), that means there are 100,000 beings in one galaxy that can destroy it, and multiple other galaxies. Out of those 100,000, two have never fought in the galaxy and destroyed it yet? Really? Now multiply that by the billions and trillions of galaxies in the known universe. The universe wouldn't even exist anymore. Especially since Odin and whoever supposedly fought and destroyed many galaxies that they WEREN'T EVEN FROM!!!! according to some people here. So why aren't other skyfathers fighting in another galaxy destroying ours? (Andromeda for instance might have another 100,000 skyfathers, which is relatively nearby).Sounds kind of preposterous to me. And even regardless of whether he has destroyed a galaxy in the past, I can 100% guarantee you he never will do so again in a Marvel comic book. Those days are long gone (if they even existed).
Not for anything but this is the exact same stance LoM had and I agreed with him 100%. But we are stuck with what's on panel, no matter how stupid. Even if the Odin galaxy busting can be debated, the Surtur galaxy busting feat isn't. Just by forging his sword he destroyed an entire galaxy. Not even the one Earth is in but some random @$$ galaxy somewhere in the universe.
Originally posted by zopzop
Preach!Not for anything but this is the exact same stance LoM had and I agreed with him 100%. But we are stuck with what's on panel, no matter how stupid. Even if the Odin galaxy busting can be debated, the Surtur galaxy busting feat isn't. Just by forging his sword he destroyed an entire galaxy. Not even the one Earth is in but some random @$$ galaxy somewhere in the universe.
I agree with you. In fact, despite what I said, I think there is plenty of on panel evidence Odin has destroyed galaxies, but like I said, I think it's pretty stupid, and I would bet anyone here some actual money that Odin never has another galaxy destroying feat ever again.
Originally posted by PillarofOsiriswatch a writer take u up on the challenge and write it in a future story just to spite u.
I agree with you. In fact, despite what I said, I think there is plenty of on panel evidence Odin has destroyed galaxies, but like I said, I think it's pretty stupid, and I would bet anyone here some actual money that Odin never has another galaxy destroying feat ever again.
Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
I agree with you. In fact, despite what I said, I think there is plenty of on panel evidence Odin has destroyed galaxies, but like I said, I think it's pretty stupid, and I would bet anyone here some actual money that Odin never has another galaxy destroying feat ever again.
I think the writers were just throwing around the word "galaxy" cause it sounded cool and children would recognize it from their science classes.
I don't get why people think its so hard to believe Odin can bust galaxies.
It's stated that Surtur has the power to destroy a galaxy, and its a fact that the twilight sword was created by destroying a galaxy. It's hard to deny Surtur is not a galaxy buster. Odin is just as powerful as Surtur no?
It's stated that galaxies were shattered right here. It's not coming from Odin's mouth either, it's coming from an omnipresent narrator.
I just don't see how people can deny that he wasn't capable of destroying a galaxy.
A lot of comes from the fact that some people simply think that destroying a galaxy is too much power for a skyfather or Odin in particular.
Considering Odin's greatest fights/feats have him, on multiple occasion, fighting with galactic repercussions, I don't see how it's PIS or how anyone can just say "I don't like it/it doesn't make sense so it shouldn't count".
Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
Like I've said, I've seen many decent arguments refuting every single galaxy busting feat of Odin's. I've also seen some that seem to indicate he has blown up or could blow up galaxies. If there are 10,000 star systems in the milky way with life (out of say 100-200 billion), and each has 10 skyfathers (just to keep it simple), that means there are 100,000 beings in one galaxy that can destroy it, and multiple other galaxies. Out of those 100,000, two have never fought in the galaxy and destroyed it yet? Really? Now multiply that by the billions and trillions of galaxies in the known universe. The universe wouldn't even exist anymore. Especially since Odin and whoever supposedly fought and destroyed many galaxies that they WEREN'T EVEN FROM!!!! according to some people here. So why aren't other skyfathers fighting in another galaxy destroying ours? (Andromeda for instance might have another 100,000 skyfathers, which is relatively nearby).Sounds kind of preposterous to me. And even regardless of whether he has destroyed a galaxy in the past, I can 100% guarantee you he never will do so again in a Marvel comic book. Those days are long gone (if they even existed).
Stop using logic. That's silly.
Its like asking why does North America get so much superhero action - if mutations were random (pre-HoM of course) then by statistics, China and India would be completely dominating the world.
Originally posted by zopzop
@HumanMovieGuide
Then what do you make of the Surtur/Twilight fiasco? Just by forging his sword, he destroyed an entire galaxy. And he's Skyfather level.
You mean earlier in the thread? The text downright says "Far beyond the fields we know, the core of an ancient galaxy... explodes!"
Considering the core of a galaxy is a bunch of stars tightly compressed, that should be the easiest part of a galaxy to destroy. Get a couple of them to go supernova and the rest should handle itself. Heck we even see in every panel of those pages a bunch of stars and planets survived that explosion.
Also what happened to the Surtur respect thread? I remember trekking through it a while back and they posted the fight that happened later in that story and Surtur dominated Odin without much trouble. I'm not an expert on the guy, does the Surtur have methods of powering or charging himself up? Would explain why he seems more powerful than normal both in power and in beating down Odin in that story.
I just found some Youtube videos of Surtur, maybe I could find more context there. I notice there seems to be a tendency to leave some important info out of certain feats.
For example people boats about Juggernaut withstanding a godblast from Thor. When I saw videos of said fight, not only did Thor told an ally he's sick and weakened, but the godblast itself was weaksauce that it barely drained Thor as evident how not only did Thor returned back to fighting but used several magical spells shortly after.
Another is PC Superman's infamous star system sneeze. Looked up that story and found out it was a result of the guy sucking up a whole city wide cloud of Mxy's magic sneezing dust. With that much sneezing dust, Jimmy Olsen could've probably accomplished atleast half that feat.
Or Zero Hour Parallax's universe busting feats. Yes he did it, but he did it by harnessing entropy and letting the entropy do the rest of the work. And the list goes on.
