Full power Kuurth vs Superman

Originally posted by Stoic
Because it's the way that he fights. He believes that he can take it. You're trying to fight in his stead and nowhere did it ever say that CIS was off.

True.

CIS is when the character is genuinely that stupid. The forum example is Rhino.

Is Superman as dumb as Rhino? Hence my question. Does he have super intelligence, yes or no?

It's not something that can be held back. He holds his strength back. WWH holds his strength back, as per character.

You're basically arguing that he has no super intelligence. You either that's it or don't.

Originally posted by Stoic
You can't sit there and argue power set bro. The Hulk during WW Hulk would be total PIS if that were the case. He would have just shown up at a major fault line and stomp killed the Earth with everyone on it. This would go against his character. The X-Men should have all been destroyed the moment he took the field, or they refused to allow Chuck his day in in court. You can't just argue power set.

So your argument is that he DOES have super intelligence, but......holds his intelligence back as per his character?

That sounds weird as hell.

Full power Kuurth can definitely hang with Superman. Toss up. Certainly not a Superman stomp. That’s ridiculous

I want to scream and yell so I'll wait until tomorrow after Christmas. 12 Am baby.

Originally posted by Stoic
In that case whenever the Hulk is in a thread he begins off with a solar system destroying punch then. Right? Full capacity rule right? You're being ignorant to Superman's character. It isn't plot when he gets hit in fights. It's within his character.

You would have people believe that when Superman fights, he flies in and hits his opponent, observers his opponents twitch muscle fibers, and dodges. You should go and read a Superman comic book. He gets hit all of the time. It would only be PIS if it happened once, but he has an entire history of being hit. He isn't Spiderman. And even Spiderman gets hit. You know what, go ahead with your unrealistic views of a fictional character that has never fought the way that you're making him out to be.

Kuurth would hit him. Rabid Superman fans are worse than DBZ fans. It actually makes fans like me grow a dislike to the character that can't be beaten, hit, slowed, out thought, and a myriad of other things that the more unreasonable fans believe about him.

Your argument is stupid. You are basically saying that Superman gets hit because he chooses to (in character). You are not understanding that he sometimes gets hit because he COULDN'T react in time to the attack. It's the same reason a boxer gets tagged by another boxer. He is sometimes written without the proper speed and reflexes to evade the attack.

Character is based off morals, intelligence, and style. Superman isn't stupid enough to purposely get hit unless he's trying to gauge the opponent.

Finally, you are ignoring forum rules about full capacity. The rule give flash as an example.

In conclusion, Superman does not get hit because he chooses to, its because he couldn't react in time. Character has nothing to do with this. It's more about the ability to do something

I can see the argument with say, Stark.

Extreme intelligence. But, he also has extreme arrogance.

So he'll make a Character buster suit. Thor,Hulk, Phoenix, whatever.

But in his arrogance, he'll misgauge his opponent.

Same with Luthor. Even Batman.

Arrogance. Does that sound like Superman?

Originally posted by h1a8
Your argument is stupid.

😂

Originally posted by Damborgson
Wait, wait, wait. That would mean that anytime Superman gets hit by a non flash character, it's PIS.

If we go that route, Superman skyrockets out of the Trans tier and most likely out of the skyfather tier.

Well, let's analyze two questions.

If you had Superman's stats, would you ever get hit? The answer is no.
Are you smarter than Superman? As smart as you are, the answer is also no.

Or, if you want, we can make it more simple.
Imagine the average person you know.
If they were millions of times faster than the person they're fighting, do you think they'd ever get hit?
If no, do you think that Superman is less smart than the average person to get hit?
The answer is also no.

Superman gets hit, for the same reason Flash does - plot.

You're thinking of it as a 'power' but it's not a power, any more than punching is a power. Strength and speed are the most simple stats possible. It's not like other characters, who have three dozen powers and you can argue that they forget or don't resort to them often enough.

If all you could do is be fast, strong, and shoot laser beams out of your eyes, what are the chances you'd forget how fast you are, and let a snail hit you? Imagine a [comically large] snail trying to hit you, would you let it in real life? Of course no.

Superman would have to be legitimately retarded in order for him not to dodge every single attack when he knows how formidable his opponent is, which he does in this thread. The only reason he wouldn't, and you can argue CIS, if he doesn't know ANYTHING about that character, and tries to see how formidable he is, so that Clark's next punch wouldn't pulverize him the moment it connects. But even that has been shown time and time again to not be needed, since he has analyzed opponents's DNA/stats with X-ray vision.

Originally posted by h1a8
Your argument is stupid. You are basically saying that Superman gets hit because he chooses to (in character). You are not understanding that he sometimes gets hit because he COULDN'T react in time to the attack. It's the same reason a boxer gets tagged by another boxer. He is sometimes written without the proper speed and reflexes to evade the attack.

Character is based off morals, intelligence, and style. Superman isn't stupid enough to purposely get hit unless he's trying to gauge the opponent.

Finally, you are ignoring forum rules about full capacity. The rule give flash as an example.

In conclusion, Superman does not get hit because he chooses to, its because he couldn't react in time. Character has nothing to do with this. It's more about the ability to do something

Superman gets hit all of the time, and I'm being stupid?
Reevaluate your stance, because you're in denial.

@Philo

I would never get hit no, and the truth is, it doesn't take much advantage in super speed for someone to make the other totally useless.

I agree, it's plot. But then, how does that transfer to a forum setting?

Full capacity, and if we attribute him getting hit in comics to PIS, means...Superman cannot be beaten. The level of speed and strength he has displayed means he could probably smack the 4th host to pieces all by himself. Because he has the punching power, and he has the speed to make them immobile in his eyes for years essentially. If that's his intended use, then...well, we've been making our threads pretty wrong for years now. And I'm not saying that's not necessarily it, but given just how often he's hit, I have little doubt as to why the skepticism arises regarding his speed. Because what makes sense in the real world, doesn't necessarily make sense in the comic environment we're discussing.

Like Thor, he's clearly FTL++++ in his travel speed, and that means his reaction speed, is also FTL++++ because he can't be just a screaming mass being pulled by a hammer, blind and disoriented. He needs to be able to steer and whatnot. But, that's clearly not the case. Does he turn off his reaction speed in fights? Well no, but...he's still in trouble when he meets nimble opponents. It feels similar here with Superman, though he obviously has many more showings using speed than my example character does.

The thing is, forum fights aren't comic book fights. That's why we're removing the PIS part - plot induced stupidity. The threads here have no plot, and we're using the characters to the best of their intelligence and character. Being fast is just one of those things that happens to be so basic, the characters would have to be mentally impaired not to dodge to the best of their ability if they have [as forum rules state] common knowledge of the opponent.

You're right that it doesn't take much more than a small speed advantage to make your opponent look like a fool, but many here can't wrap their head around that. I always think going to a mma fight video on youtube, slowing it down to 0.25x, and imagining that only a million times slower, and then Superman/Flash being a million times faster than even THAT should drive the point home. But even that's hard to think about, since there's no point of reference, and after like 0.01x the fighters in the video are a statue either way. I don't want to turn this in 'what does that mean if Superman fights that character?' because it would just keep going, but if you can warp reality [like celestials scan], time/distance [i.e. speed] isn't much of a problem. And even then, see: Flash vs Anti-Monitor. It's not unprecedented.

As for your Thor question - travel speed doesn't translate to reaction/combat speed. The same way it's hard to wrap one's head around how fast being that fast is, it's also hard to get perspective on how big space is. If I give you now, a normal human, the ability to fly at 10 times the speed of light, and tell you to fly out of the solar system, you'd 100% not hit anything. Space is so empty, that it's ridiculously impossible to hit anything, unless you really want to. Think of the fact that ALL the planets in the solar system fit between Earth and the moon, and now think how big the solar system is. You apply that to the galaxy, and it's like trying to hit a specific speck of dust while you're jogging. Same applies to Green Lanterns historically, who by and large are normal humans crossing the Universe.

Any time somebody says that some posters are wanking Superman [i.e. 'Wah he beats my favorite character!'] I always say that you have no idea how unbeatable a wanked Superman would look. 'Almost as fast as Flash' translates into 'basically the Flash' for any thread of him not facing the Flash himself, and when we really start wanking his other attributes, well, that would drive people off the forum, probably. But that would be no fun, so that's why you see Superman vs Thor [or insert any other character with no high-end superspeed] as basically Superman fans underselling it, not going to the true extent of the implications beyond 'he's faster' and focusing on other stuff, because most threads would end at the first post, and it would ruin the fun of getting and debating other stuff [at least lately, minus h1]. That's why I'm a always telling you that Kal-El squad will welcome you with open arms, you have no idea how fun it is to hold back arguments yet still be able to easily argue your case. 😛

Kuurth eats Clark and shits him out on abhi's chest.

Originally posted by Philosophía
The thing is, forum fights aren't comic book fights. That's why we're removing the PIS part - plot induced stupidity. The threads here have no plot, and we're using the characters to the best of their intelligence and character. Being fast is just one of those things that happens to be so basic, the characters would have to be mentally impaired not to dodge to the best of their ability if they have [as forum rules state] common knowledge of the opponent.

You're right that it doesn't take much more than a small speed advantage to make your opponent look like a fool, but many here can't wrap their head around that. I always think going to a mma fight video on youtube, slowing it down to 0.25x, and imagining that only a million times slower, and then Superman/Flash being a million times faster than even THAT should drive the point home. But even that's hard to think about, since there's no point of reference, and after like 0.01x the fighters in the video are a statue either way. I don't want to turn this in 'what does that mean if Superman fights that character?' because it would just keep going, but if you can warp reality [like celestials scan], time/distance [i.e. speed] isn't much of a problem. And even then, see: Flash vs Anti-Monitor. It's not unprecedented.

As for your Thor question - travel speed doesn't translate to reaction/combat speed. The same way it's hard to wrap one's head around how fast being that fast is, it's also hard to get perspective on how big space is. If I give you now, a normal human, the ability to fly at 10 times the speed of light, and tell you to fly out of the solar system, you'd 100% not hit anything. Space is so empty, that it's ridiculously impossible to hit anything, unless you really want to. Think of the fact that ALL the planets in the solar system fit between Earth and the moon, and now think how big the solar system is. You apply that to the galaxy, and it's like trying to hit a specific speck of dust while you're jogging. Same applies to Green Lanterns historically, who by and large are normal humans crossing the Universe.

Any time somebody says that some posters are wanking Superman [i.e. 'Wah he beats my favorite character!'] I always say that you have no idea how unbeatable a wanked Superman would look. 'Almost as fast as Flash' translates into 'basically the Flash' for any thread of him not facing the Flash himself, and when we really start wanking his other attributes, well, that would drive people off the forum, probably. But that would be no fun, so that's why you see Superman vs Thor [or insert any other character with no high-end superspeed] as basically Superman fans underselling it, not going to the true extent of the implications beyond 'he's faster' and focusing on other stuff, because most threads would end at the first post, and it would ruin the fun of getting and debating other stuff [at least lately, minus h1]. That's why I'm a always telling you that Kal-El squad will welcome you with open arms, you have no idea how fun it is to hold back arguments yet still be able to easily argue your case. 😛

You make some good points dude. It puts things into perspective better, but I'm starting to get this kind of vibe:

Like I said before, Quicksilver taking down Mr. X with a lead pipe made waves specifically because it was a rare case of how thinge "should" play out.

There's absolutely nothing else remarkable about a speedster stomping a street, except that the fact it rarely happens.

Flash would run circles around superman, he's NOT almost as fast as flash. Superman loses here.

phil going full emperor and maybe gaining a convert. 😂

the argument is essentially irresolvable. i wonder if--had battle boards and the interwebz been around before or while comics were first being introduced--if things would be different? i mean would superman have flash-esque speed and be able to blow up planets with a punch? or would writers have taken more care to make things forum friendly? lol

phil's exactly right. people who like superman or back him in debates DO have to hold back arguments because forum rules make guys like him and flash so far beyond their marvel equivalents that it isn't even worth debating. but marvel fans forget (or never knew) that that difference is something that was INTENTIONAL. marvel ACTIVELY sought to portray their characters as more "real" than dc did. that was the whole point of marvel! their guys were strong, but they couldn't tow solar systems or move planets with next to no effort. it was their belief that readers couldn't relate to those types of power.

people want thor to be a forum match for superman, but....in actuality, it's a mismatch. marvel DESIGNED things that way. it's not thor's fault he was conceived in a universe that was created to be more like the REAL WORLD, with heroes that were intended to be more relatable. in a forum setting superman would massacre thor, and, in all honesty, it isn't really a debatable thing. we make it debatable by using "comic book superman". which is fine. i do the same thing. why? for the purpose of discussion of course. in reality, dc and marvel are very different (though marvel has caved some i think over the years and gone more the route of dc in terms of power levels) and comparing characters from the 2 companies is often unfair in some ways. we literally try forcing comparisons between apples and (insert anything as far from apples as you can think of) in the forum and expect people to rationally debate it. lol

what's the FIRST retort of anyone answering the claim that hulk should NEVER touch superman? "superman gets hit all the time in comics!!"

yes, of course he does. so? that has no bearing on the forum. or rather, almost no bearing, because there is the area of CIS. but even that doesn't help--why? because as phil said superman isn't stupid. the plot REQUIRES he ACT stupidly--until it doesn't.

frankly there is no answer to the issue. guys like hulk and thor lose every time to superman. hell, both together would never have the chance to even hit him one time. so we allow comic book superman to rear his head. in reality, there are precious few characters in marvel who can make LEGITIMATE claims to beating characters like superman, flash or wonder woman. again, it's not the fault of the characters, it is simply the universe in which they were born. being more 'realistic' has it's advantages--but it also has disadvantages, and they are obvious in this type of setting. /shrug

Marvels DC is the Xmen.

And Space. And the Fantastic Four. They go full on nerd pandering anytime those are the subject (What DC calls an event, Marvel calls an issue of FF. Superman Beyond 4d doesn't even come close to the stakes of a typical Marvel space event..)

Multiversal killer is boring, gotta up the stakes some.

Marvel Comics have characters that would make superman look like a fool when it comes to speed and strength. Thor and hulk have a long history of tagging speedsters. That's part of their character and powerset. They WILL hit superman, no question about it. Surfer,Gladiator, Hyperion, Count Neferia, Sentry and Blue Marvel could not care less at supermans speed. Most of the ones named here would dust superman in flight speed, reflex speed or anything else dealing with speed. Superman and flash if in marvel comics would be NOTHING special. Marvel has stronger and faster characters capable of shattering planets or blowing them up with an energy blast or mere thought.Anybody thinking superman won't get hit is just a fan that hates the idea that superman can be beaten and hit.

Originally posted by JBL
Marvel Comics have characters that would make superman look like a fool when it comes to speed and strength. Thor and hulk have a long history of tagging speedsters. That's part of their character and powerset. They WILL hit superman, no question about it. Surfer,Gladiator, Hyperion, Count Neferia, Sentry and Blue Marvel could not care less at supermans speed. Most of the ones named here would dust superman in flight speed, reflex speed or anything else dealing with speed. Superman and flash if in marvel comics would be NOTHING special. Marvel has stronger and faster characters capable of shattering planets or blowing them up with an energy blast or mere thought.Anybody thinking superman won't get hit is just a fan that hates the idea that superman can be beaten and hit.

It's basically the same argument for those guys (Glads, Surfer, etc.). They are caught in comics not using their speed when they get tagged, due to plot.
Could Thor hit Quicksilver directly? No. Superman is a lot faster than him.

Superman has traveled to the center of the universe (many galaxies away) in a matter of minutes to reach OA. Only the Surfer can rival that type of flight speed. Everyone else you named falls short by a lot. Also, flight speed does not translate to fight speed (as you didn't read Phil's post on why).

Originally posted by h1a8
It's basically the same argument for those guys (Glads, Surfer, etc.). They are caught in comics not using their speed when they get tagged, due to plot.
Could Thor hit Quicksilver directly? No. Superman is a lot faster than him.

Superman has traveled to the center of the universe (many galaxies away) in a matter of minutes to reach OA. Only the Surfer can rival that type of flight speed. Everyone else you named falls short by a lot. Also, flight speed does not translate to fight speed (as you didn't read Phil's post on why).