SBP vs Phoenix 5

Originally posted by ODG
Only an idiot would fail to recognize that most of their showings throughout Avengers Vs X-Men involve the Phoenix Five holding back per Phoenix Cyclops' orders. It's why Phoenix Namor eventually loses his patience and goes rogue. It's why Spider-Man tricks Phoenix Magik and Phoenix Colossus to go at each other.

But, again, that has everything to do with their mission and Cyclop's leadership. It has little, or nothing, to do with the Phoenixforce itself and its erratic showings when used by others.

There's better examples than those to prove "erratic showings"

Originally posted by ODG
Only an idiot would fail to recognize that most of their showings throughout Avengers Vs X-Men involve the Phoenix Five holding back per Phoenix Cyclops' orders. It's why Phoenix Namor eventually loses his patience and goes rogue. It's why Spider-Man tricks Phoenix Magik and Phoenix Colossus to go at each other.

But, again, that has everything to do with their mission and Cyclop's leadership. It has little, or nothing, to do with the Phoenixforce itself and its erratic showings when used by others.

I wouldnt say thats true.

I mentioned their roles as heroes playing a part in their showings as you agree, you disagree or place little significance on the nature of the power they wield as having something to do with their showings which is strange when we look at Emmas frying of Hawkeye because she momentarily lost control, or Emma distancing herself from humanity in an attempt to be a hero, before succumbing to the powers destructive urges. The characters facing an internal struggle with the power and its tendency to bring out primal destructive urges in its hosts is a major feature within this and all Phoenix related stories.

As aforementioned the hosts showings are a combination of factors, the seductive, passionate nature of the power they wield, their roles as heroes/mission objectives and the conflict between these necessitating restraint in all they do.

Originally posted by ODG
Only an idiot would fail to recognize that most of their showings throughout Avengers Vs X-Men involve the Phoenix Five holding back per Phoenix Cyclops' orders. It's why Phoenix Namor eventually loses his patience and goes rogue. It's why Spider-Man tricks Phoenix Magik and Phoenix Colossus to go at each other.

This bit i'll agree is spot on. 👆

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I wouldnt say thats true.

I mentioned their roles as heroes playing a part in their showings as you agree, you disagree or place little significance on the nature of the power they wield as having something to do with their showings which is strange when we look at Emmas frying of Hawkeye because she momentarily lost control, or Emma distancing herself from humanity in an attempt to be a hero, before succumbing to the powers destructive urges. The characters facing an internal struggle with the power and its tendency to bring out primal destructive urges in its hosts is a major feature within this and all Phoenix related stories.

As aforementioned the hosts showings are a combination of factors, the seductive, passionate nature of the power they wield, their roles as heroes/mission objectives and the conflict between these necessitating restraint in all they do.

They have nothing to do with each other. The former is on-panel, explicit, obvious and requires nothing more than simple reading. The latter is projected, convenient, extenuated and sounds like apologist semantics. And, more importantly, one is also on-topic and the other is off-topic.

Originally posted by ODG
You tried to conflate Phoenix Cyclop's specific leadership for them to hold back with this notion that the Phoenixforce's own objectives set some sort of amorphous cap to other users' power levels.

They have nothing to do with each other. The former is on-panel, explicit, obvious and requires nothing more than simple reading. The latter is projected, convenient, extenuated and sounds like apologist semantics. And, more importantly, one is also on-topic and the other is off-topic.

Not at all.

I gave a variety of factors which could be used as explanations for a Phoenix hosts showings in general and some which more specifically have been shown to apply to the P5. Factors which have been stated explicitly on panel.

The Phoenixes conflicting agenda with that of its host has explicitly been shown and stated on panel to be able to significantly effect a hosts performance on battle. I presented that as one of a few factors, why you have singled that out as if it was the only one i do not know especially when the Forces corruptible nature as the embodiment of destruction and rebirth and the inner struggle this causes with the characters attempts to be heroes/act responsibly was also put forward and focused on.

I never conflated the effects/influence of the mission with the Forces objectives. You did that yourself by looking at my post. I put forward a number of factors all of which have through on panel statement and action been shown to effect a hosts performance throughout continuity and within this event. If you place less significance on one then thats your prerogative, but dont tell me im doing something im not mate, thats your misunderstanding. 😬

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Not at all.

I gave a variety of factors which could be used as explanations for a Phoenix hosts showings in general and some which more specifically have been shown to apply to the P5. Factors which have been stated explicitly on panel.

The Phoenixes conflicting agenda with that of its host has explicitly been shown and stated on panel to be able to significantly effect a hosts performance on battle. I presented that as one of a few factors, why you have singled that out as if it was the only one i do not know especially when the Forces corruptible nature as the embodiment of destruction and rebirth and the inner struggle this causes with the characters attempts to be heroes/act responsibly was also put forward and focused on.

I never conflated the effects/influence of the mission with the Forces objectives. You did that yourself by looking at my post. I put forward a number of factors all of which have through on panel statement and action been shown to effect a hosts performance throughout continuity and within this event. If you place less significance on one then thats your prerogative, but dont tell me im doing something im not mate, thats your misunderstanding. 😬

And this has bugger all to do with the Phoenixforce theoretically inhibiting its other hosts because of imagined objectives. In less subtle terms, Phoenix Cyclops' leadership has sh1t to do with stuff like the Phoenixforce wanting Jean Grey to die at Magneto's hand or Rachel Grey Phoenix being ktfo by Thor. And nobody cares about that stuff as it has little, or nothing, to do with this thread.

Originally posted by ODG
Fine. We agree the reason why the Phoenix Five aren't blowing up planets as a team (even though the Phoenixforce was one-shotting planets and heralds just before it was split up) is because they're trying to save the planet and humanity per Phoenix Cyclops' orders.

And this has bugger all to do with the Phoenixforce theoretically inhibiting its other hosts because of imagined objectives. In less subtle terms, Phoenix Cyclops' leadership has sh1t to do with stuff like the Phoenixforce wanting Jean Grey to die at Magneto's hand or Rachel Grey Phoenix being ktfo by Thor. And nobody cares about that stuff as it has little, or nothing, to do with this thread.

Mate i was both speaking about hosts in general and the Phoenix 5 specifically. All of the factors i mentioned were relevant.

You just misunderstood me and tried to second guess my intentions.

I never once said that the Phoenix 5 arent going all out in this title because of the Phoenix Forces conflicting objectives. It was a point i made in general about what we've seen in hosts throughout continuity and as this is the same Phoenix Force we're talking about, it was still worthy of a mention. It has definitely been the case for hosts in the past so i thought it worth mentioning as a factor that could apply in some way to the P5. That is my prerogative. Dont make an issue of it.

What i related directly to the Phoenix 5 was the conflict between the powers nature and their mission/desire to be heroes.

Everything else you did yourself.

If you werent so quick and eager to try and find fault in my posts and instead took the time out to read and understand them properly then maybe you'd see that on this issue we're not really in disagreement about anything. 🙂

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Mate i was both speaking about hosts in general and the Phoenix 5 specifically. All of the factors i mentioned were relevant.

You just misunderstood me and tried to second guess my intentions.

I never once said that the Phoenix 5 arent going all out in this title because of the Phoenix Forces conflicting objectives. It was a point i made in general about what we've seen in hosts throughout continuity and as this is the same Phoenix Force we're talking about, it was still worthy of a mention. It has definitely been the case for hosts in the past so i thought it worth mentioning as a factor that could apply in some way to the P5. That is my prerogative. Dont make an issue of it.

What i related directly to the Phoenix 5 was the conflict between the powers nature and their mission/desire to be heroes.

Everything else you did yourself.

If you werent so quick and eager to try and find fault in my posts and instead took the time out to read and understand them properly then maybe you'd see that on this issue we're not really in disagreement about anything. 🙂

Originally posted by ODG
I didn't second-guess your intentions. You either conflated them or you went on an irrelevant off-topic rant. Now you're pretending like you did neither. Forgive my disbelief. I understood everything you wrote. And if you don't feel self-conscious over it, then you have nothing to worry about.

I mentioned factors which have been shown to be relevant to hosts throughout continuity as possible explanations and i focused on ones shown explicitly to effect the P5. Completely logical.

All the rest you misconstrued in your eagerness to try and find fault.

That is all.

Happy posting 😉

You mentioned theoretical factors which are possibly relevant to hosts that aren't in this thread as possible explanations and conflated the simple explicit one at play that has only to do with Cyclops' leadership affecting the P5. Completely pointless/off-topic at best, utterly shameless/incnsequential at worst.

Your backhanded excuses and feigned innocence notwithstanding.

That is all.

Happy posting 😉

Originally posted by ODG
You mentioned theoretical factors which are possibly relevant to hosts that aren't in this thread as possible explanations and conflated the simple explicit one at play that has only to do with Cyclops' leadership affecting the P5. Completely pointless/off-topic at best, utterly shameless/incnsequential at worst.

Your backhanded excuses and feigned innocence notwithstanding.

That is all.

Happy posting 😉

All this comes down to is 1) An unwillingness to admit that the hosts showings can be determined by factors other than Cyclops' leadership, despite the fact that its both mentioned and depicted on panel that the Forces corrupting influence also factors into their performance.

2) a quite baffling failure to accept that throughout continuity Phoenix hosts share common traits and experiences in using the power so mentioning previous experiences to offer a possible explanation to whats going on with current hosts is a very logical exercise

I'll pass this off as butt hurt from previous interactions.

Im sure theres cream available for said affliction.

Please find relief before posting again. 😱

Originally posted by red sabre
wow thanks man you just made my day, in fact i am going to give you my girlfriend here man she is all yours.

Been there done that.
Wasn't nothing special.
You're passing her just like I did. 😎

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
All this comes down to is 1) An unwillingness to admit that the hosts showings can be determined by factors other than Cyclops' leadership, despite the fact that its both mentioned and depicted on panel that the Forces corrupting influence also factors into their performance.

2) a quite baffling failure to accept that throughout continuity Phoenix hosts share common traits and experiences in using the power so mentioning previous experiences to offer a possible explanation to whats going on with current hosts is a very logical exercise

I'll pass this off as butt hurt from previous interactions.

Im sure theres cream available for said affliction.

Please find relief before posting again. 😱

2) Nobody cares about the lame excuses you come up for other hosts.

I'm afraid you have the monopoly on that.

And hoarded that as well.

Happy posting. kinda

Originally posted by ODG
1) Nobody cares about the lame excuses you come up for other hosts.

2) Nobody cares about the lame excuses you come up for other hosts.

I'm afraid you have the monopoly on that.

And hoarded that as well.

Happy posting. kinda

If you want to act like a traumatized victim, then be my guest. I will carry on regardless using precedence in continuity, on panel scene and handbook statement to prove my point over your unsupported opinion and pretentious bluster 🙂

Happy posting 😉

^ Your text-book projection and feigned attempt at role reversal hasn't remedied your sh1tty arguments or your bitterness. You're about as predictable as yesterday's weather.

Fine job at deflecting onto pure trollery since you can't even muster an attempt to salvage your arguments at this point.

Originally posted by ODG
^ Your text-book projection and feigned attempt at role reversal hasn't remedied your sh1tty arguments or your bitterness. You're about as predictable as yesterday's weather.

Fine job at deflecting onto pure trollery since you can't even muster an attempt to salvage your arguments at this point.

More pretentious waffle.

At first i thought you were just a butt-ravaged troll, but now i seriously do think you believe your delusion.

You come on here accusing me of downplaying the significance of Cyclops orders on the showings/power output of the Phoenix 5 in favour of the agenda of the Phoenix Force.

I tell you thats not the case the agenda of the Force was one of many points I put forward and that Cyclops orders was a factor i covered in different words when i referred to how the P5 are following a mission and see themselves as heroes and are acting accordingly.

That should've been the end of the argument. Or at least would have been if i was not dealing with one afflicted by anal trauma. Not satisfied because your point was shown to be redundant and actually addressed, you moved the goal posts to stage another attempt at one-upmanship and basically said ok cool GS but bringing up how other hosts have been effected by the Force is irrelevant to this thread about the Phoenix 5.

I tell you the effects the Force has on a host are common throughout continuity from its introduction to current 2012 continuity, e.g passionate, destructive urges creating an inner struggle for control and a fear to fully unleash, stuff we've seen explicitly with the P5 and yet because the examples i used to support said point were Jean and Rachel, you fallaciously demean the point and try to say its irrelevant. 😬

Now youre ass spurting pretentious paragraph after paragraph accusing me of some imagined nonsense in an attempt to satisfy your ego.

Be objective.

Be mature.

If you place a differing level of significance on the factors that may contribute to the P5's showings then thats fine. But dont be so arrogant to state as fact that your factor is the only one relevant here when continuity and this very story arc shows otherwise.

Enjoy your day 🙂

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The Phoenix 5.

Too often people forget to consider the context when assessing characters. The Phoenix 5 consider themselves heroes and want to present themselves as such to the world whilst having the Avengers portrayed as the villains. Therefore it is not fair to make a direct comparison between them and a villain like SBP who ruthlessly slaughters and has little regard for the consequences of his actions.

Furthermore the Phoenix 5 are channeling a sentient being with its own agenda an entity that embodies the passion of creation, destruction and rebirth on a cosmic scale, so they constantly have to rein in their power and be very controlled and precise in what they do for fear of losing control. As heroes is winning a battle, or stomping an opponent with ease worth the risk of getting caught up in the entities destructive urges, unleashing too much power and blowing up the planet?

Wielding the Phoenix Force as a sentient power with objectives and responsibilities is not the same as wielding a non sentient power like HOTI or an artifact like the IG where its power and the full spectrum of abilities they possess can be switched on and off with a thought at any desired extent by the user. That cant be done with the Phoenix Force. Using the power comes with an inbuilt sentience that will let you use its powers as long as long as its for uses that coincide with its agenda or at least dont interfere in any way. (See AOA Jean attacking Archangel in Uncanny X-Force)

All these points are why you can get a Phoenix enhanced Rachel losing to Thor (whilst a standard Rachel can dominate him) and then next thing shes defeating reality warpers and blowing up solar systems in battle.

Why you can have Jean Grey losing to Magneto in battle and then next minute shes securing the power of the M'kraan crystal or amputating timelines.

Or why Phoenix Jean can get taken out by a poison dart, killed by planetary level EMP's and the next shes bathing in stars, and shrugging off black holes

Context people. Context. Take everything into account, its a useless or extremely flawed comparison otherwise.

If for the purpose of this battle the characters are bloodlusted and they dont have to hold back, then a single one of them could take him out, as we've seen on panel in standard comic settings these characters cannot be killed. In forum settings where they dont have to hold back or consider civilians, environmental destruction etc SBP wouldnt stand a chance.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller

I dont get what youre trying to prove. Its not as straightforward as you probably thought when posting. Explain 😕

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I dont get what youre trying to prove. Its not as straightforward as you probably thought when posting. Explain 😕

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
You claimed that the IG is an artifact whose "power and the full spectrum of abilities they possess can be switched on and off with a thought at any desired extent by the user " .
Reed's statement in that scan , that the IG is an "uncontrollable cosmic force" like the Phoenix , disproves your assertion .

Not in the slightest and im guessing youve read Thanos Quest, the Infinity Gauntlet etc because if you had you'd see that the IG is uncontrollable in terms of the power eventually makes a user lose touch with their humanity, they think they know best, they get arrogant and think that because of their power and level of omniscience they can do no wrong. However they still have access to the full range of the IG's abilities with a thought, it is an inanimate artifact.

A Phoenix host however is channeling a sentient being, not just a tool tapped into a power reserve like an IG user. They are channeling the power of a being that manifests to perform "Phoenix Work", that has an agenda and as we've seen on panel has no qualms turning on a host if their actions are against the Forces agenda (aoa jean in uncanny x-force) the Force embodies passion, the passion of rebirth as the Big Bang and of destruction as the Big Crunch, that duality causes inner turmoil within hosts making the power consume the host and lash out wildly and in cases too much of a sensory overload to do a thing with ( see Diamanda Nero in X-men: Phoenix, Emma Frost in Phoenix:Endsong, Hope in AvX4)

So the IG is uncontrollable in that it cant be wielded for long without effecting a hosts decision making, giving them a superiority complex where once they were beneficent (See Adam Warlock)However its full abilities are available to a user.

A Phoenix host never has complete autonomy, they can be taken over by the force, have the power turned against them, be compromised by what the force embodies and lose their minds or find the power too much to cope with and cant do a thing.

Very different.