Baleman vs Black Widow.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
Logically, you have no basis to make that assumption as you have no idea what experience those mobsters may or may not have had.

Screen feats for the ninja please!

Yes, actually I do. There is a logical reason to believe that the ninja would have experience in hand-to-hand combat not so with the mobsters.

Basically, we know that Batman is defeating competent fighters in H2H combat; we don't know if Black Widow is.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
Actually, Catwoman defeated Bane. IIRC Batman was lying on the ground soaking in a puddle of his own blood. I mean, as long as we're ignoring context here.

Except Batman still beat Bane in H2H. Sure, he capitilzed on his weakness but it's pretty much analgous to kicking a guy in the balls. Perhaps it's "cheap" but in the end you still win.

Originally posted by ares834
Yes, actually I do. There is a logical reason to believe that the ninja would have experience in hand-to-hand combat not so with the mobsters.

Didn't they kick Bruce's ass when they raided his mansion in Begins?

Originally posted by ares834
Basically, we know that Batman is defeating competent fighters in H2H combat;

Not doing a good job of it if he is able to be grabbed from behind and held down by local mob goons

Also, I have yet to see Batman take on any opponent of BW's agility, so all this talk of ninjas and mobsters is strawmanning.

Originally posted by ares834
we don't know if Black Widow is.

Seriously?

Originally posted by ares834
Except Batman still beat Bane in H2H.

Except it wasn't H2H. Bane was manhandling him H2H and Bats had to improvise "Hand-2-Mask"

Originally posted by ares834
Sure, he capitilzed on his weakness but it's pretty much analgous to kicking a guy in the balls.

😆 No way is Bale's slow, unagile ass is going to get BW in such a position before she KO's him in 3 seconds

Also, you act like that was some slick martial arts move he did, grabbing Bane's mask. It was an act of desperation because Bane's fists were getting comfortable in their new residence which is Baleman's face

Originally posted by ares834
Perhaps it's "cheap" but in the end you still win.

A very, very unimpressive win

Originally posted by Lestov16
Didn't they kick Bruce's ass when they raided his mansion in Begins?

Don't remember TBH. However, after Ra's is poisoning Gotham ha battles four ninja at once.

Originally posted by Lestov16
Not doing a good job of it if he is able to be grabbed from behind and held down by local mob goons

Ooh, the typical low ball argument.

Originally posted by Lestov16
Also, I have yet to see Batman take on any opponent of BW's agility, so all this talk of ninjas and mobsters is strawmanning.

Lol, how is it strawmanning? DO you even know what a strawman is?

Originally posted by Lestov16
Seriously?

I'm not saying Black Widow is incompetent in combat, but rather we have no reason to believe that the mobsters and guards she defeated are.

Originally posted by Lestov16
Except it wasn't H2H. Bane was manhandling him H2H and Bats had to improvise "Hand-2-Mask"

You must have not watched the movie because there was no "manhandling" going on in the second fight.

Originally posted by Lestov16
😆 No way is Bale's slow, unagile ass is going to get BW in such a position before she KO's him in 3 seconds

😆

I'm fine with people believing BW wins. And I will admit she does look flashy, but the notion she is going to defeat Bats in 3 seconds is straight up laughable.

Basically at the end we have Bats defeating competent fighters in combat including Ra's, bane, and the ninja. Meanwhile, the only person that BW has defeated that we can reasonably assume is competent is Hawkeye. Personally, I think assessing which one is victorious based on who they have defeated is more reasonable than which one looks to fight better as the latter is somewhat subjective.

Originally posted by ares834
Don't remember TBH. However, after Ra's is poisoning Gotham ha battles four ninja at once.

You mean this poorly choreographed fight scene?

YouTube video

Originally posted by ares834
Ooh, the typical low ball argument.

You mean the argument which shows how Bats is inferior to BW in H2H? I'm not lowballing, i'm showing how Bats is not near BW in skill or agility

Originally posted by ares834
Lol, how is it strawmanning? DO you even know what a strawman is?

Yes..........he's made of straw........and I think Nick Cage and some bees had something to do with it.....

Originally posted by ares834
I'm not saying Black Widow is incompetent in combat, but rather we have no reason to believe that the mobsters and guards she defeated are.

But none of that matters. We can clearly see that she is far more agile and skilled in H2H than Bruce.

Originally posted by ares834
You must have not watched the movie because there was no "manhandling" going on in the second fight.

Well........I am poor, so no, I haven't seen TDKR yet. However, based on this:

YouTube video

It's quite apparent that the choreography hasn't made any radical improvements.

Also quite apparent that, while not getting "manhandled", Bats doesn't have any significant advantage in the fight

Originally posted by ares834
I'm fine with people believing BW wins.

We know she wins based off the basic common sense logic that Bats is clearly not agile enough to keep up with her

Originally posted by ares834
And I will admit she does look flashy,

She's Scarlett Johannsen. I'd go gay just so she could phuck me straight

Originally posted by ares834
but the notion she is going to defeat Bats in 3 seconds is straight up laughable.

Not laughable

YouTube video

Highly Likely

Originally posted by ares834
Basically at the end we have Bats defeating competent fighters in combat including Ra's, bane, and the ninja.

In slow, unagile, poorly-choreographed fights

Originally posted by ares834
Meanwhile, the only person that BW has defeated that we can reasonably assume is competent is Hawkeye.

In a far more awesome and well-choreographed fight than any of Bats'

Originally posted by ares834
Personally, I think assessing which one is victorious based on who they have defeated is more reasonable than which one looks to fight better as the latter is somewhat subjective.

Not really. If I only saw the scenes in the Bourne Trilogy where Bourne pwned the cops, I'd still be able to gage his skill level.

Personally, I think assessing which one has better onscreen feats is more reasonable

Originally posted by Lestov16
Personally, I think assessing which one has better onscreen feats is more reasonable

I'd agree.

Which is why I'm relying on what they have defeated. Attempting to assess which is better based on how it looks is somewhat subjective which is why I refrain from it. I always have. Consider SW, visually the most impressive duelist is Maul. But would I consider him to be superior to Mace Windu who is slow in comparison? Hell no.

Originally posted by ares834
Which is why I'm relying on what they have defeated.

Okay.

Batman against mob goons: Gets subdued and held down and has to struggle to pull off a win

Black Widow against mob goons: WTFpwns them all effortlessly, and unlike Batman in the Penthouse, she didn't have an advantageous position or armor and was in fact tied up and surrounded

And yet you continue on attempting to take what is perhaps Batman's worst fight and match it with Black Widows best...

In Begins we have him taking down numerous goons at once in an almost effortless fashion:
YouTube video

We also have that Ninja scene you provided earlier.

Here we have him taking several guys rather effortlessly as well:
YouTube video

Really, your average goon poses almost no threat to Batman in H2H.

Really, your average Baleman fight is absolutely unimpressive compared to BW

Originally posted by Lestov16
But he got damn near close....

I thought he built it already for Loki, and was just able to utilize it because he wasn't mind-controlled anymore

I'm sorry, but I refuse to believe that. Other than following Loki's orders, I did not see Clint impaired any way, physically or psychologically

So?

I know you're joking now 😂

You mean to tell me that this

YouTube video

is better choreographed than this?

lol no

Blame the fight choreographer. Not the actress. And her fight scenes were a shit load more entertaining than Baleman's

I've already proven that Widow (and Hawkeye) are far better combatants than Baleman and his unagile slowness

Close, but no quite there.

I'm pretty sure Loki didn't want it, he put it there on his own.

What what did you expect to see? Hawkeye tripping on a banana peel?

So it's not that good. It can be somewhat resisted and fixed with a hit on the head. It kind of sucks as far as magic goes.

Black Widow's fights just make no sense. Her opponents go down to moves that can't put down children. You seriously think a real fighter or soldier would go down to freaking cartwheels and hair-whips? Batman fight scenes have problems, but at least they look more plausible.

I just finished watching Haywire. Crap movie, but Gina Carano's fights look better because she knows what she's doing. You can't put an untrained actress and expect her to look convincing as a martial artist.

Batman has his armor, her hits won't do crap but his concrete-breaking fists will bust her up. Strength >> Agility

The hair-whip was meant to be a headbutt. It was a choreography fail.

Originally posted by Psychotron
Close, but no quite there.

I'm pretty sure Loki didn't want it, he put it there on his own.

What what did you expect to see? Hawkeye tripping on a banana peel?

So it's not that good. It can be somewhat resisted and fixed with a hit on the head. It kind of sucks as far as magic goes.

Black Widow's fights just make no sense. Her opponents go down to moves that can't put down children. You seriously think a real fighter or soldier would go down to freaking cartwheels and hair-whips? Batman fight scenes have problems, but at least they look more plausible.

I just finished watching Haywire. Crap movie, but Gina Carano's fights look better because she knows what she's doing. You can't put an untrained actress and expect her to look convincing as a martial artist.

Batman has his armor, her hits won't do crap but his concrete-breaking fists will bust her up. Strength >> Agility

Closer than Bats will ever get

You are correct, according to the wikis. Still. You have yet to prove that it dampened Clint's physical prowess, considering he made that nigh-impossible shot to the Helicarrier

Like I said above

Once again, yes the crow tastes delicious

Doesn't matter how much it defies real-world physics. In her world, she has strength like that

Yes you can if you have the right fight choreographer and training. Matt Damon did it.

Considering this random mook was able to punch him in the face (
0:16 ), I doubt the protective abilities of the mask. All she has to do is KO him right? She's not trying to remove the mask or anything?

Originally posted by ares834
[B]Yes, actually I do. There is a logical reason to believe that the ninja would have experience in hand-to-hand combat not so with the mobsters.

Except Batman still beat Bane in H2H. Sure, he capitilzed on his weakness but it's pretty much analgous to kicking a guy in the balls. Perhaps it's "cheap" but in the end you still win.

And you're dancing around the fact that you've yet to provide any evidence of Bane or anyone in those movies being a batter fighter than Natasha. It's not like I'm going to just forget that the onus is on you. lol

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
Saying it over and over doesn't make it true. Prove it.

But it is true. We have reason to believe Ninja's are capable H2H fighters. They're ninjas after all... Plus we see there training in Begins.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
No, it isn't, because while "kicking a man in the nuts" is a weakness that can be found in any man, damaging his facemask is not. If Bane hadn't been susceptible to having his mask damaged he would have clobbered Batman with his superior skill and strength.

Did I say Batman defeated him through superior skill and strength? No. Only that he beat him in hand to hand, which is true. And no I don't see a difference just because this weakness is unique to Bane.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
And you're dancing around the fact that you've yet to provide any evidence of Bane or anyone in those movies being a batter fighter than Natasha. It's not like I'm going to just forget that the onus is on you. lol

Except I never said Bane was.

Batman has the better feats in defeating the Ninjas which, when combined with his strength advantage, makes him appear to be the superior combatant.

IIRC we only see their training in the art of deception and stealth. We don't see any of them training in H2H.

Either way, its not a better feat than Natasha beating those guys while tied to a fricking chair.

Nah, I'd disagree with you there. Her beating them up on the chair is great and all but I'd say defeating four ninja is more impressive.

Plus he is stronger and takes several concrete busting blows rather nonchalantly.

I think that's just subjective then. I see it as better, you don't.

And BW shrugged off a blow from the Hulk. I know which I see as more impressive.

Originally posted by ares834
[B]But it is true. We have reason to believe Ninja's are capable H2H fighters. They're ninjas after all... Plus we see there training in Begins.

Did I say Batman defeated him through superior skill and strength? No.

So basically, you think Batman wins because... you like his character more. Bad form, dude.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
No, "they're ninjas" doesn't mean that they're automatically superior fighters to the mobsters. Prove it.

My bad. I'm not saying that they are superior to the mobsters. Rather I am saying we have reason to believe that they are competent. However, we have no reason to believe that the mobsters are.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
In which case Bane is irrelevant to this scenario.

Pretty much. But it's not only due to that. Characters like Ra's, Bane, and Hawkeye get their H2H feats based on how well they fared against Batman or, in Hawkeye's case, BW. As such it's impossible to really use these fights to gauge the hero's skill.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
So basically, you think Batman wins because... you like his character more. That isn't really a good argument, no offense.

Not at all. I see his battle against the ninja to be more impressive. He also holds a sizable strength advantage.

I'm siding with Natasha...but I gotta say I was impressed when I realized Bane could punch holes in concrete pillars. Suddenly it made sense how Bane's fists were doing so much damage to a semi-armored Bruce.

Originally posted by ares834
Not at all. I see his battle against the ninja to be more impressive.

But that fight was horribly choreographed. If that's the best you can provide of Bruce's skill, I'm firm in saying BW takes it

Originally posted by ares834
He also holds a sizable strength advantage.

You sure about that?

00:43

She tosses a grown man into the air with her legs