Baleman vs Black Widow.

Originally posted by Lestov16
But that fight was horribly choreographed. If that's the best you can provide of Bruce's skill, I'm firm in saying BW takes it

Fair enough. But as I said earlier choreography doesn't mean all that much to me.

Originally posted by Lestov16
You sure about that?

00:43

She tosses a grown man into the air with her legs

😐

That pales in comparison to what Batman does. That involves a ton of momentum and she never really lifts the guy off the floor. Batman "armcurls" a full grown man in Begins, shatters a brick with a kick, knocks Bane into the air with a kick, and manages to nearly match Bane in arm strength in their second fight... And Bane's punches shatter concrete! When it comes to pure strength there is no contest.

I am surprised this thread is still going..

Originally posted by ares834
Fair enough. But as I said earlier choreography doesn't mean all that much to me.

😐

That pales in comparison to what Batman does. That involves a ton of momentum and she never really lifts the guy off the floor. Batman "armcurls" a full grown man in Begins, shatters a brick with a kick, knocks Bane into the air with a kick, and manages to nearly match Bane in arm strength in their second fight... And Bane's punches shatter concrete! When it comes to pure strength there is no contest.

Originally posted by ares834
Nah, I'd disagree with you there. Her beating them up on the chair is great and all but I'd say defeating four ninja is more impressive.

Plus he is stronger and takes several concrete busting blows rather nonchalantly.

Beating three grown men while tied to a chair is better than beating 4 ninjas who have no feats.

Seriously do you have any idea how hard it would be to fight in that condition.

Batman had superior armor weapons in his fight Natasha had nothing and the men were armed and she was still able to take them down while tied to a chair.

Also as far as the interrogation went they weren't mobsters but military Why do you think Natasha was calling him General such and such.

Originally posted by Lestov16
Closer than Bats will ever get

You are correct, according to the wikis. Still. You have yet to prove that it dampened Clint's physical prowess, considering he made that nigh-impossible shot to the Helicarrier

Like I said above

Once again, yes the crow tastes delicious

Doesn't matter how much it defies real-world physics. In her world, she has strength like that

Yes you can if you have the right fight choreographer and training. Matt Damon did it.

Considering this random mook was able to punch him in the face (
0:16 ), I doubt the protective abilities of the mask. All she has to do is KO him right? She's not trying to remove the mask or anything?

You wish.

I'm saying it dampened his mental prowess.

And in Batman's world she gets a busted face.

You're wrong. Just compare Bourne's shaky-cam crap with the fights in a Michael Jay White or Scott Adkins movie.

It took multiple shots from Bane before it broke, so I doubt Widow can do much. Especially when Baleman nearly matched Bane in strength and owned him in their second fight.

Originally posted by Psychotron
You wish.

I'm saying it dampened his mental prowess.

And in Batman's world she gets a busted face.

You're wrong. Just compare Bourne's shaky-cam crap with the fights in a Michael Jay White or Scott Adkins movie.

It took multiple shots from Bane before it broke, so I doubt Widow can do much. Especially when Baleman nearly matched Bane in strength and owned him in their second fight.

Also did you just compare Michael Jai White to Mat Daemon as a comparison of fighting choreography.

Listen man there is a reason why MJW's fights look better, because he is a highly trained and highly formidable martial artists. He isn't an actor who spent 3 months learning a MA for a film. It's something he has dedicated his life to.

They don't have to do special camera shots or movie magic to make him look like a good MAist because he is one.

And this still has no bearing on the feats Natasha pulled off. Just because you didn't like them doesn't mean they didn't happen.

Originally posted by Newjak
Dude she did the feats regardless of whether you like them or think they are viable. She did them they worked plain and simple.

Also did you just compare Michael Jai White to Mat Daemon as a comparison of fighting choreography.

Listen man there is a reason why MJW's fights look better, because he is a highly trained and highly formidable martial artists. He isn't an actor who spent 3 months learning a MA for a film. It's something he has dedicated his life to.

They don't have to do special camera shots or movie magic to make him look like a good MAist because he is one.

And this still has no bearing on the feats Natasha pulled off. Just because you didn't like them doesn't mean they didn't happen.

They wouldn't have worked on the LoS or Bane. She fought only weaklings.

That's my point. Hollywood should stop putting guys like Matt Daemon (or women like Scarlett) in action roles. It doesn't work.

She pulled them off in her fights with security guards, she'll fail against Baleman. One brick-shattering kick and it's over.

Originally posted by Psychotron
They wouldn't have worked on the LoS or Bane. She fought only weaklings.

That's my point. Hollywood should stop putting guys like Matt Daemon (or women like Scarlett) in action roles. It doesn't work.

She pulled them off in her fights with security guards, she'll fail against Baleman. One brick-shattering kick and it's over.

So despite what you want to believe. Natasha found herself tied to a chair facing three adult men who under the circumstances likely had military experience since they were following a general and no general is going to not take guys with military backgrounds.

I mean it doesn't even matter if they were weak. You could take a very strong, very talented fighter and put them in the same situation against three weak people and that MAer is going to get their @$$ whooped if they are tied to a chair.

The thing is you assuming that Natahsa isn't skilled because you don't like the choreography or the moves she was using cause you think they are weak and bad, but that goes completely against the entire purpose of that scene. It was to show that she is a BA who can take three fully grown men down while tied to a chair.

And there is a reason why they choose ACTORS instead of MAers for those rolls. Cause at the end of the day at some point you are gonna want them to act, and have to pull off an actual scene of character development.

Are you one of those people who say only wrestlers should portray Superheros cause they are the only ones who can look the part?

Originally posted by Newjak
The problem is you are only assigning them to be weak because Natasha used moves you think are stupid to beat them. The whole point of the scene is to show the opposite.

So despite what you want to believe. Natasha found herself tied to a chair facing three adult men who under the circumstances likely had military experience since they were following a general and no general is going to not take guys with military backgrounds.

I mean it doesn't even matter if they were weak. You could take a very strong, very talented fighter and put them in the same situation against three weak people and that MAer is going to get their @$$ whooped if they are tied to a chair.

The thing is you assuming that Natahsa isn't skilled because you don't like the choreography or the moves she was using cause you think they are weak and bad, but that goes completely against the entire purpose of that scene. It was to show that she is a BA who can take three fully grown men down while tied to a chair.

And there is a reason why they choose ACTORS instead of MAers for those rolls. Cause at the end of the day at some point you are gonna want them to act, and have to pull off an actual scene of character development.

Are you one of those people who say only wrestlers should portray Superheros cause they are the only ones who can look the part?

If that is the point of the scene then they failed. Not my fault they chose such crappy choreography. Can you seriously imagine Batman or Bane going down to a cart wheeling 5'2 100 pound girl? I can't see it. The fact is her moves made no goddamn sense. If you can toss someone on the ground and ko them just like that, well, something is wrong with them.

The interrogation scene is just as bad. One of the guys gets hit with her HAIR and stumbles back, or that guy whose hand she breaks when she slightly turns it. I'm sorry but I can't take this seriously. it's one thing when a superhuman does this crap, but when powerless person does it with sheer skill the movie should reflect that, not do some cartoony fight scene.

Not like Black Widow need any acting skill. Her character was the definition of cliche. Who said anything about wrestlers? Although, even a wrestler would have made a better Bane than Tom Hardy.

Originally posted by Psychotron
If that is the point of the scene then they failed. Not my fault they chose such crappy choreography. Can you seriously imagine Batman or Bane going down to a cart wheeling 5'2 100 pound girl? I can't see it. The fact is her moves made no goddamn sense.

I dunno. I reckon River Tam could probably take him.

Originally posted by Psychotron
If that is the point of the scene then they failed. Not my fault they chose such crappy choreography. Can you seriously imagine Batman or Bane going down to a cart wheeling 5'2 100 pound girl? I can't see it. The fact is her moves made no goddamn sense. If you can toss someone on the ground and ko them just like that, well, something is wrong with them.

The interrogation scene is just as bad. One of the guys gets hit with her HAIR and stumbles back, or that guy whose hand she breaks when she slightly turns it. I'm sorry but I can't take this seriously. it's one thing when a superhuman does this crap, but when powerless person does it with sheer skill the movie should reflect that, not do some cartoony fight scene.

Not like Black Widow need any acting skill. Her character was the definition of cliche. Who said anything about wrestlers? Although, even a wrestler would have made a better Bane than Tom Hardy.

In comics people are only supposed to be peak human do super human feats all the time.

Technically a lot action movies do it to.

I meant there are people who only want wrestlers to portray superheroes cause they are big and buff. It doesn't matter if they can not act at all. You were making the same argument, in that you want MAers to only portray fighters in movies instead of actors.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I dunno. I reckon River Tam could probably take him.

River Tam punches him in the throat and watches him choke blood through the mask. 😄

Originally posted by Psychotron

Not like Black Widow need any acting skill. Her character was the definition of cliche. Who said anything about wrestlers? Although, even a wrestler would have made a better Bane than Tom Hardy.

WB/DC tried that already with steroid induced wrestler Jeep Swenson and that was a p#sspoor interpretation so years later WB/DC went with someone who could actually act and Hardy did a very good job

Some REAL fight choreography

YouTube video

Originally posted by Newjak
You are right it was cartoony and comic in terms of the action but that is what they were going for.

In comics people are only supposed to be peak human do super human feats all the time.

Technically a lot action movies do it to.

I meant there are people who only want wrestlers to portray superheroes cause they are big and buff. It doesn't matter if they can not act at all. You were making the same argument, in that you want MAers to only portray fighters in movies instead of actors.

I guess we're not going to agree any time soon. To me her scenes were boring and hard to take seriously. But then I didn't like the Avengers either.

It's not the same argument, martial artists can fight, wrestlers not so much. They can easily have them do the fight scenes in superhero movies, because everyone is masked. Scott Adkins played Barakpool for example.

What you just described is a stuntman.

Originally posted by NemeBro
What you just described is a stuntman.

They only use stuntmen for certain shots. Adkins played Barakpool in his entirety.

But that doesn't really count, as he was portraying Ryan Reynolds character, not his own

Originally posted by Lestov16
But that doesn't really count, as he was portraying Ryan Reynolds character, not his own

True, but it's not like Reynolds was on the screen for long.

But it's still Wade (Reynolds) though. Even if they got a different actor to portray him for a different scene, the audience is still supposed to believe that that is Reynolds. That's why they got someone who looked so similar.