Originally posted by Zack Fair
So he did get through the core of the sun and lived to get out the other side. Thats an amazing feat of endurance/durability even if it did kill him. Also true juggerman. Which is why I mentioned earlier they are 2 different things.Reminds me to DL the movies. Got the entire z saga but always forget about dem movies.
No only the energy came out the other side. His physical form was incinerated.
btw: God he's sexy lol.
Originally posted by juggerman
Goku was "struggling" with Vegeta when they first fought.Vegeta was "struggling" with 1st Form Freiza.
#17 was "struggling" with Piccolo.
1st Form Cell was "struggling" with #16.
Goku was "struggling" with Pikkon.
Stalemates often include struggling. Dabura was not overly above Gohan like Broly seemed to be and Dabura was stated to be Cell's superior.
Looks to me like Perfect Cell < Dabura < Broly
Even if it wasn't as obvious as it was with Broly, Dabura was still pretty above Gohan in their fight, which Vegeta scolded him for afterward. If the fight had been more conclusive (for lack of better word), Gohan would not have lasted much longer. Dabura wasn't panting at the end either like Gohan was, as pointed out. Whether he was stronger or weaker than Perfect Cell, you could easily tell Dabura wasn't trying too much against Gohan like he was with Fat Buu.
Originally posted by juggerman
Ok then if Earth hit the sun... Same deal.These DBZ guys seem to have shitty heat durability. Broly and Cooler were killed by the sun. Broly was burned by lava. Goku panicked when Broly's blast set his clothes on fire. Goku dodged lava while fighting Frieza.
As for Goku, he was knocked into lava then rose back out of it when fighting Frieza at one part in the anime, though it might have been filler. Don't remember at this point. If it is, then disregard my mention of it.
When did Gohan make an actual winning comeback against Dabura though like Goku did in his first fight against Vegeta, etc.?
Goku didn't really make a comeback. He was completely spent after countering Vegeta's Galick Gun. Vegeta was still strong enough to kill Goku if he just attacked but he didn't realise Goku couldn't really move so he pulled his trump card (transformation) and toyed with Goku
And some of those other examples were only because one of them was holding back at first, like with 17 because he didn't know Piccolo would become as stronger as he did after easily handling him before, and 1st form Cell was being arrogant when he underestimated 16 as he referred to him as one of Gero's lower model Androids.
Dabura was clearly holding back as well. The point was that stalemates happen all the time and atleast one of them usually struggles. Still a stalemate tho
Goku and Pikkon (assuming you mean in the Other World Tournament) wasn't a stalemate since there was an actual victor.
Yes i was but these fights don't usually END in a stalemate. They fight and stalemate for awhile and then one of them does something different and gets the upperhand.
Goku and Vegeta stalemated until Vegeta went DK
Vegeta and Frieza stalemated until Frieza went 2nd Form
Frieza and Piccolo stalemated until Frieza went 3rd Form
Piccolo and #17 stalemated until Piccolo's Ki started to decrese
Cell and #16 Stalemated until Cell grabbed #17
Even if it wasn't as obvious as it was with Broly, Dabura was still pretty above Gohan in their fight, which Vegeta scolded him for afterward. If the fight had been more conclusive (for lack of better word), Gohan would not have lasted much longer.
It was pretty clear that Broly was well above Gohan. He no sold pretty much every attack and was overpowering Gohan Goten and Goku.
And we don't know how the fight would have gone had it continued. Goku was completely outclassed and being destroyed by Frieza at 50% but when he got mad enough he violated Frieza's hind parts even at 100%. No reason to believe Gohan couldn't do the same to Dabura seeing as how his potential is far above Goku's
Dabura wasn't panting at the end either like Gohan was, as pointed out. Whether he was stronger or weaker than Perfect Cell, you could easily tell Dabura wasn't trying too much against Gohan like he was with Fat Buu.
He was stated to be at Cell's PL by Goku, then Goku says he's stronger than he thought. He's really saying He's stronger than Cell was.
And Gohan completely outclassed Cell as SSJ2. It was embarrassing. Then he gets weaker and struggles with Dabura. He would have had to have gotten alot weaker to just be even with Cell Since he overpowered Cell at half strength. And we don't know exactly how much his PL decreased. I'm just speculating here but that to me says Dabura>Cell
Cooler survived the sun actually, even though he got help from an outside source. Still fairly impressive though that he had anything left of himself at all to still be alive & able to receive aid when the Big Gete Star came along.
Yeah i forgot Cooler survived which makes Broly look even worse. But their race seems to be able to survive injuries that would kill anyone else. Frieza was cut in half and had his face blown half off and survived
As for Goku, he was knocked into lava then rose back out of it when fighting Frieza at one part in the anime, though it might have been filler. Don't remember at this point. If it is, then disregard my mention of it.
I know he did but before he went Super he was fighting Frieza and the ground spit and lava came up. He was afraid to let it touch him
Originally posted by Damborgson
He said that they were about the same. Then later in the fight when Vegeta was getting pissed Goku said Dabura was stronger than he'd thought. Never was it implied that he was weaker than cell, and I think that Toriyama's purpose was to show just how different the scale in power was between a guy like perfect cell and a guy like fat buu was.Yeah no doubt he was weaker, but to be able to drop from the point where you can beat the crap out of someone no problem to being tied with them is pretty huge.
Yeah Bro. From a family kamehameha lol.
Originally posted by juggerman
Goku didn't really make a comeback. He was completely spent after countering Vegeta's Galick Gun. Vegeta was still strong enough to kill Goku if he just attacked but he didn't realise Goku couldn't really move so he pulled his trump card (transformation) and toyed with Goku
Originally posted by juggerman
Dabura was clearly holding back as well. The point was that stalemates happen all the time and atleast one of them usually struggles. Still a stalemate tho
But since Gohan's a hack he got that power boost from the Elder Kai later on which made him surpass SSJ3 Goku and Gotenks.
Originally posted by juggerman
Yes i was but these fights don't usually END in a stalemate. They fight and stalemate for awhile and then one of them does something different and gets the upperhand.
Originally posted by juggerman
And we don't know how the fight would have gone had it continued. Goku was completely outclassed and being destroyed by Frieza at 50% but when he got mad enough he violated Frieza's hind parts even at 100%. No reason to believe Gohan couldn't do the same to Dabura seeing as how his potential is far above Goku's
Originally posted by juggerman
He was stated to be at Cell's PL by Goku, then Goku says he's stronger than he thought. He's really saying He's stronger than Cell was.
Originally posted by juggerman
He would have had to have gotten alot weaker to just be even with Cell Since he overpowered Cell at half strength.
Originally posted by juggerman
Yeah i forgot Cooler survived which makes Broly look even worse. But their race seems to be able to survive injuries that would kill anyone else. Frieza was cut in half and had his face blown half off and survived
Originally posted by juggerman
I know he did but before he went Super he was fighting Frieza and the ground spit and lava came up. He was afraid to let it touch him
Originally posted by BloodRain
Goku said he was stronger from the magic he was using. Plus stating that Dabura would need to be stronger to be a strong opponent back then.
Thats not what he said at all. That magic made him tougher than he thought or something similar. Then he said that though Dabura wasn't an enormous threat now, back in the cell games he would have been trouble.
"Well, even if that wasnt his full strength he would have been a strong opponent a while ago, but..." "Seven years ago, we fough Cell. Dabura's probably at about that same power level."
Goku guesses that a full powered Dabura would be at Cells level.
"Was that magic?" "He's a lot stronger than I thought."
The magic surprised him right before the statement.
"He's not even close to the level he was at when he fought Celll."
If as a SS2 Gohan doesn't compare to Teen Gohan, than Dabura being in his league (Gohan was below him for being out of breath but technically "not losing" yet) says that he's not as strong as Cell. Comparable with Goku's hypothetical Dabura at full power, but still weaker.
Originally posted by BloodRain
"Well, even if that wasnt his full strength he would have been a strong opponent a while ago, but..." "Seven years ago, we fough Cell. Dabura's probably at about that same power level."
Goku guesses that a full powered Dabura would be at Cells level."Was that magic?" "He's a lot stronger than I thought."
The magic surprised him right before the statement."He's not even close to the level he was at when he fought Celll."
If as a SS2 Gohan doesn't compare to Teen Gohan, than Dabura being in his league (Gohan was below him for being out of breath but technically "not losing" yet) says that he's not as strong as Cell. Comparable with Goku's hypothetical Dabura at full power, but still weaker.
yes and here's what you said :
Originally posted by BloodRain
Goku said he was stronger from the magic he was using. Plus stating that Dabura would need to be stronger to be a strong opponent back then.
completely different.
And my arguments all stand. He at Cell level or higher from Goku's cooments.
oh and those links are broken for me >_<
They're the same.
I said Goku announced that he was stronger when he started using his magic, which he did.
I said Goku thought that if he wasnt at full power (an assumption) he would have been a strong opponent back then, which he did.
What comment supports your argument? The one where Goku says he would be at Cell's level assuming he wasn't at full power yet (Also not possible as we only know of certain fighters being able to suppress their power. Dabura did not show this)? Or when both Goku and Vegeta confirm that Gohan is much weaker now only to have Dabura only get an edge in the fight, not a victory?
The comments say that Dabura is on Cell's level from Goku's assumption or is weaker from how he handled Gohan. No comment says he's stronger.
Originally posted by BloodRain
They're the same.I said Goku announced that he was stronger when he started using his magic, which he did.
I said Goku thought that if he wasnt at full power (an assumption) he would have been a strong opponent back then, which he did.
What comment supports your argument? The one where Goku says he would be at Cell's level assuming he wasn't at full power yet (Also not possible as we only know of certain fighters being able to suppress their power. Dabura did not show this)? Or when both Goku and Vegeta confirm that Gohan is much weaker now only to have Dabura only get an edge in the fight, not a victory?
The comments say that Dabura is on Cell's level from Goku's assumption or is weaker from how he handled Gohan. No comment says he's stronger.
Goku said Dabura was tougher than perfect cell....but they're the same? K.
You said what I posted you said. It's your quote not mine.
what are you arguing at this point? What I'm arguing is that Dabura is = or slightly > Perfect cell. I'm arguing this because of the comment from Goku and Vegeta.
It starts off "There was a guy called cell a few years back. They're about the same."
later :
"He's tougher than we thought"
"yeah but this much trouble with him?!"
it's flimsy but its the only thing to imply it basically. Which is what DBZ tends to do.
Goku didnt say he was stronger. Comparable if Dabura could attain more power? Yes. Stronger? No.
And before that quote he's basically going on an assumption if Dabura hasnt got to his full power yet. But he has at that point, since he cant charge up.
Tougher because of the use of magic. And tougher when compared to a weak Gohan.
Originally posted by BloodRain
Goku didnt say he was stronger. Comparable if Dabura could attain more power? Yes. Stronger? No.And before that quote he's basically going on an assumption if Dabura hasnt got to his full power yet. But he has at that point, since he cant charge up.
Tougher because of the use of magic. And tougher when compared to a weak Gohan.
I know. He said what I posted. He said that Dabura would have been trouble had they been at the levels of the cell games not that he was weaker.
Says who?
So? That weak Gohan was stalemating a being at the level of or stronger than cell.
That weak Gohan was stalemating a being at the level of or stronger than cell.
Gohan was so much weaker than his teen self, to an extent where Vegeta brings it up several times with Goku flat-out agreeing with him, but despite this he can stalemate someone who was stronger than the person his teen self just managed to beat? Even though he's much, much weaker now?
Originally posted by BloodRain
Gohan was so much weaker than his teen self, to an extent where Vegeta brings it up several times with Goku flat-out agreeing with him, but despite this he can stalemate someone who was stronger than the person his teen self just managed to beat? Even though he's much, much weaker now?
I'm talking about perfect cell. Not super perfect cell. I doubt they were referring to Dabura as having the power that Cell had after he regenerated. But if that were the case it still wouldn't be a bad feat since he beat him with one arm.
Goku said that he thinks Dabura is on Cell's level.
Then he says Dabura is stronger than he thought.
Goku thought that Dabura was on Cell's level, but turns out, he is stronger than he thought, and he thought he was on Cell's level.
Therefore Dabura is stronger than Cell.
BloodRain, stop being an idiot.
Gohan apparently being much weaker than when he fought Cell not factor into your analysis there?
Dabura<Cell for the simple fact that Dabura was unable to kill a far weaker Gohan than one Cell could compete with.
Then again, it's hard to tell if Goku is implying Dabura is as strong as Perfect Cell or the stronger, revived Perfect Cell.
Well Cell never really "competed" with SSJ2 Gohan. Gohan was well above Cell. He was so far above Cell that he was able to hold him off and eventually kill him at half strength AFTER Cell got stronger.
Gohan weakening over 7 years might just have put him on par with Cell since he was so much stronger than him as a teen. We really don't know how much Gohan weakened but since he was still able to access SSJ2 so easily he was probably still above Cell
Originally posted by juggerman
Well Cell never really "competed" with SSJ2 Gohan. Gohan was well above Cell. He was so far above Cell that he was able to hold him off and eventually kill him at half strength AFTER Cell got stronger.
It's kinda hard to measure just how much he was above Cell after Cell returned from self-destructing, but being able to disable one of Gohan's arms and thus cutting his strength in half at least says something as far as Cell's power increase, since before he couldn't damage Gohan with even the distructo discs or anything.
Originally posted by juggerman
Gohan weakening over 7 years might just have put him on par with Cell since he was so much stronger than him as a teen. We really don't know how much Gohan weakened but since he was still able to access SSJ2 so easily he was probably still above Cell