Time-Trapper Vs Phoenix Force

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
You never found that out.

The story said legends told of that happening. That is inconclusive.

Furthermore, Necrom ripped a shard of the Phoenix Forces power for his own use and the Force fled in pain. Does that mean Necrom is more powerful than the Force or could defeat it in battle?

No.

Because Necrom coveted the Phoenix power so it could make him a god.

Looking at feats of character A tapping power from character B can be kind wonky in general...

Take Kalibak tapping into Darkseid's power. He's able to punk out Orion by siphoning it, yet Darkseid himself can't beat Orion?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Eternity himself states that his existence is brought about by the PF

Canon states that his power derives from the Big Bang which is the PF.

The Phoenix Force and its hosts have performed feats beyond any of the Abstracts.

Do not let showings by the P5 make you overlook the capabilities of the Force itself.

You know that a Spark can create a Fire that is bigger and more powerful than itself. Some mutants have performed greater feats then PF or even most Abstracts as well, doesn't make them more powerful or more important. Abstracts don't have a comic series and only few appearances^^.

As far as I see it the PF is as much needed as Galactus and important and powerful enough to play a vital role in the Universe but she is a part of the Universe after it's created and there are beings in the same Universe which are more powerful then it. She never appeared to be the ultimate infinite power tbh. The infinite power is a quite misused term in comics btw.

The PF was also beaten by less then Abstracts.

But where would you rank the PF? Beyond Galactus? Death? The IG or even Eternity?

Originally posted by cdtm
Looking at feats of character A tapping power from character B can be kind wonky in general...

Take Kalibak tapping into Darkseid's power. He's able to punk out Orion by siphoning it, yet Darkseid himself can't beat Orion?

If Darkseids power can be used by an amateur to take out Orion and yet DS himself can not or at least has not in their battles then its common sense that the potential is their for DS to do it to, however their is another factor in play.

Its important not to be so superficial in your assessments.

The P5s showings as heroes whilst trying to be restrained and acting hero-like does not demean the Force.

A ruthless villain wielding a shard of the power less than any of the P5 members was blowing up solar systems.

That shows you how great an effect the P5s determination to be heroes has on their showings.

Originally posted by cdtm
Looking at feats of character A tapping power from character B can be kind wonky in general...

Take Kalibak tapping into Darkseid's power. He's able to punk out Orion by siphoning it, yet Darkseid himself can't beat Orion?

Maybe because we can assume that DS has only Avatars working for him and they are limited to the power they can use, a True Darkseid appeared just once during FC imho.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
You know that a Spark can create a Fire that is bigger and more powerful than itself. Some mutants have performed greater feats then PF or even most Abstracts as well, doesn't make them more powerful or more important. Abstracts don't have a comic series and only few appearances^^.

As far as I see it the PF is as much needed as Galactus and important and powerful enough to play a vital role in the Universe but she is a part of the Universe after it's created and there are beings in the same Universe which are more powerful then it. She never appeared to be the ultimate infinite power tbh. The infinite power is a quite misused term in comics btw.

The PF was also beaten by less then Abstracts.

But where would you rank the PF? Beyond Galactus? Death? The IG or even Eternity?

Thats not the case at all.

The PFs role is to perpetuate the creation cycle by igniting it and eventually destroying it however its being is the actual energies of creation, the Big Bang.

The Firebird isnt the sum of the Phoenix Force, it is an avatar, a manifestation of the energies of creation, within creation.

The PF has been called by the Watcher as 2nd in power only to the supreme being

The Supreme Intelligence called it the greatest destructive power in existence

Eternity himself states that it controls the creation cycle and that he and the other Abstracts wouldnt exist without it

Roma the omniversal majestrix confirmed its role as the energies of creation by saying without the Force there would be no universe, just a void

Reed Richards confirms it is the energies of creation

Tony Stark in AvX confirms it is one and the same as the Big Bang

One thing to keep in mind is that the Force is not an evil entity or a ruthless villain, it is a cosmic force with a role and purpose so comparing its destructive feats to those of the IG or some other power wielded by a villain isnt a sensible comparison.

as i stated compare the feats of Necrom wielding a shard of the PF to one of the P5 members who wield more and you'll see how great an effect a characters role and intentions have on their showings.

The Phoenix Force is beyond the Abstracts as confirmed by Eternity.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
If Darkseids power can be used by an amateur to take out Orion and yet DS himself can not or at least has not in their battles then its common sense that the potential is their for DS to do it to, however their is another factor in play.

Or, it's common sense that there's PIS in play.

There's no evidence of an "avatar" Darkseid, and no evidence of "other factors". (And from what you're saying, the Necrom example sounds like similar PIS writing, if Necrom could drive away the Phoenix Force in pain.)

Sometimes bad writing, is simply bad writing.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Maybe because we can assume that DS has only Avatars working for him and they are limited to the power they can use, a True Darkseid appeared just once during FC imho.

Orion's fought, and beaten, the true Darkseid before. Simonson's Darkseid was the "true Darkseid".

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

The Phoenix Force is beyond the Abstracts as confirmed by Eternity.

So you believe the PF can defeat any abstract in 616?

To quote Quanchi: Based on?

So far, you're arguing that the PF's role, and comments from other characters, put it at the top of the abstract chain. But being important to the universe doesn't always equate to top tier power levels...

TT is, at the least, above Skyfather level. He grappled with and survived an encounter with Infinite Man, who became the a living embodiment of time in its entity, from the the Big Bang to Entropy, and around again.

Originally posted by cdtm
Or, it's common sense that there's PIS in play.

There's no evidence of an "avatar" Darkseid, and no evidence of "other factors". (And from what you're saying, the Necrom example sounds like similar PIS writing.)

Sometimes bad writing, is simply bad writing.

For a start i made no mention of Darkseids avatars in my argument so that point needs to be directed elsewhere....

And if an amateur can tap into DS' powers and beat Orion whereas Ds can not then that clearly shows that DS has the potential to beat Orion himself.

Lets get back on point anyway.

The Phoenix Force controls the creation cycle in Marvel from Big Bang to Big Crunch thereby demonstrating control over entropy in her role.

Simple.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
For a start i made no mention of Darkseids avatars in my argument so that point needs to be directed elsewhere....

And if an amateur can tap into DS' powers and beat Orion whereas Ds can not then that clearly shows that DS has the potential to beat Orion himself.

Lets get back on point anyway.

The Phoenix Force controls the creation cycle in Marvel from Big Bang to Big Crunch thereby demonstrating control over entropy in her role.

Simple.

By your logic, Chronos also controls the Big Bang and Big Crunch, as he controls time itself (And what did Hourman do? He froze a big bang in time lock.)

And again, TT survived an encounter with Infinite Man, who's essentially a living cycle of time, from Big Bang to Big Crunch, to Big Bang all over again.

Originally posted by cdtm
So you believe the PF can defeat any abstract in 616?

To quote Quanchi: Based on?

So far, you're arguing that the PF's role, and comments from other characters, put it at the top of the abstract chain. But I'm not hearing too many big feats..

TT is, at the least, above Skyfather level. He grappled with and survived an encounter with Infinite Man, who became the a living embodiment of time in its entity, from the the Big Bang to Entropy, and around again.

Comments from reputable characters especially cosmics themselves or geniuses from the MU are good enough as proof.

Furthermore if the PF is confirmed as the power that determines Eternity and the Abstracts existence by Eternity himself then its position as beyond the Abstracts is not debatable.

The M'kraan crystal is a multiversal power. By canon it destroyed the previous multiverse and recreated the current one. The Phoenix Forces power contained its energies when its power was unleashed in the current multiverse.

Jean Grey as the White Phoenix manipulated the atoms of the entire 616 universe

She also amputated not just a universe, but an entire timeline from the multiverse and disposed of it.

So the Phoenix Force empowered Jean Grey to do those feats whilst simultaneously sustaining creation and empowering avatars across the multiverse

And did i tell you that the latest Phoenix Force handbook describes it as a multiversal entity? Thats enough 🙂

Originally posted by cdtm
By your logic, Chronos also controls the Big Bang and Big Crunch, as he controls time itself (And what did Hourman do? He froze a big bang in time lock.)

And again, TT survived an encounter with Infinite Man, who's essentially a living cycle of time, from Big Bang to Big Crunch, to Big Bang all over again.

True and I'd rate IM higher than Phoenix.

Originally posted by cdtm
By your logic, Chronos also controls the Big Bang and Big Crunch, as he controls time itself (And what did Hourman do? He froze a big bang in time lock.)

And again, TT survived an encounter with Infinite Man, who's essentially a living cycle of time, from Big Bang to Big Crunch, to Big Bang all over again.

Time has no relevance in a void. Time only gains relevance following the creation event which is known as the beginning of time. Eternity is the embodiment of the chronal axis and the concept of time exists after the Big Bang 🙂

Before the Big Bang and following the Big Crunch that the Phoenix Force perpetuates, Chronos would be powerless 😄

Furthermore the Phoenix Force is both of creation and beyond

it could not be controlled by a time manipulator. It determines time, it gives that concept relevance.

Not sure if GS is a really successful troll or just deluded.

Originally posted by CortSether
Not sure if GS is a really successful troll or just deluded.

O_o Harsh.

GS's alright. It's just comics, bro.

Originally posted by CortSether
Not sure if GS is a really successful troll or just deluded.

A troll in what way?

Because my perspectives arent shared by the majority?

I can back up all of my arguments with scans stating my points, if you think that makes me a troll then that would make you the deluded one 🙂

Why not try contributing something of substance instead of popping in to drop an off topic insult kinda like a troll 😄

I love the Phoenix, probably one of my fav abstacts in comics, but TT takes this. PF has been less than stellar lately.

Nice theory. But well the cosmology works different in both companies, obviously.
Still the PF is just one part of a giant Multiversal mechanism and though important just like in a clockwork mechanism all gear wheels are important and wouldn't work without the others, it doesn't create the others, it isn't beyond those others. It's used to give rebirth but after it the Abstracts are again what they were, necessities of the Universe, like Death.
You might disagree, but that's ok.
And you said it, before the big bang, means that there was a time before the big bang, maybe even before the PF itself.
It can be manipulated by a time manipulator, time exists and it was manipulated and defeated by less. Its enegry and energy can always be manipulated. Actually it was always manipulated to give birth to a new Universe, wasn't it?
I still would rank it somewhere between the Abstracts, with a Host even below this.

Edit: BTW I don't think you are a troll, I think your theory is just fine. Comics gives us enough room for different interpretations, yours is rather exotic but still ok, it just doesn't hold more turth in it then other theories imho. Nevermind^^.

Still siding with TT, he seems more powerful and impressive *shurg*.

Originally posted by Golgo13
I love the Phoenix, probably one of my fav abstacts in comics, but TT takes this. PF has been less than stellar lately.

The P5s showings have been less than stellar, but that doesnt demote the Phoenix Force.

Especially when the comics make it clear the P5 are trying to be heroes and act accordingly which explains why they arent blowing enemies apart or eating solar systems. Would you expect that from a good guy? Well thats what they think they are and what they are trying to be.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Nice theory. But well the cosmology works different in both companies, obviously.
Still the PF is just one part of a giant Multiversal mechanism and though important just like in a clockwork mechanism all gear wheels are important and wouldn't work without the others, it doesn't create the others, it isn't beyond those others. It's used to give rebirth but after it the Abstracts are again what they were, necessities of the Universe, like Death.
You might disagree, but that's ok.
And you said it, before the big bang, means that there was a time before the big bang, maybe even before the PF itself.
It can be manipulated by a time manipulator, time exists and it was manipulated and defeated by less. Its enegry and energy can always be manipulated. Actually it was always manipulated to give birth to a new Universe, wasn't it?
I still would rank it somewhere between the Abstracts, with a Host even below this.

The abstracts themselves state that their existence is determined by the Phoenix Force
It is canon that the Abstracts existence and power stems from the Big Bang
The Phoenix Force is the Big Bang
One of the Phoenix Forces many hosts was able to manipulate the entirety of the universe in the palm of her hand displaying complete control of its atomic structure and that was Jean Grey, not the entire Phoenix Force, as previously mentioned it has been stated to be a multiversal force and by containing the power of the M'kraan crystal it has demonstrated that. Both its role and the feats it has empowered its hosts to do whilst simultaneously sustaining creation and empowering other hosts conclusively ranks its power as greater than the Abstracts which it enables and sustains.

If you are not aware of these feats than thats cool i can show you them 🙂

The Abstracts play very important roles as well, but as the controller of the universal creation cycle and the energies of creation that determine the existence of all within that cycle, its role and power are clearly and understandably the greatest.