I thought it was a pretty applicable example.
Problem with Black Alice is, if you prevent her from using other non-characters' powers, she's just a normal girl. And if her opponent is say, Booster Gold...
But if her opponent is Odin, for example, then the thread becomes Odin vs Odin, as that is all she can do. So preventing her from drawing on outside sources is silly, as long as you place caps on her.
Here, the Destroyer is drawing on the power of others like Magneto draws on the powers of other planets when he fought Iron Man. Its not summoning the pantheons.
But like Jake said, it was a one time moment, and we haven't seen it used again, and was it Loki who did it? Otherwise, its doubtful he could replicate it in the heat of battle. Its like feat sharing between Lanterns.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
It was the Iron Man/Thor mini, particular #3 and 4.Fair enough I guess, wouldn't be very sporting to the Hulk if Loki became omnipotent. Of course I'd like to point out that Loki amping from an extradimensional source of energy wouldn't be much different from what Hulk does technically speaking.
Still curious as to how you think the Hulk would win the physical confrontation even if you believe he's stronger. I.e. put him down. It's Loki animating the Destroyer and not some random dude from the street.
And the Destroyer's stamina is even more unlimited than the Hulk's. Loki can undo any damage easily while Hulk's healing factor being overtaxed while not a common occurrence, is possible. Particularly since we're dealing with a mystically powered entity, and even Green Scar's vulnerable to magic of sufficient potency.
Some abilities such as removing Hulk's soul from his body, teleporting him etc. would give him the win I'd wager. Gotta run so I can't get any more in-depth than that.
Ah thanks i just rechecked that. it was the incident with Diablo.
Maybe in the strictest technical sense. However, Hulks entire powerset functions (even passively) as a result of his connection to that extra dimensional energy source which means that even in this Neutral KMC environment it would function even if that dimension is not within the KMC universe. (similar to flashes speedforce powers). The case with the destroyer on the otherhand is more of a forceful absorption of the energy of the pantheons who wont even be present within the neutral KMC universe and i dont think the same aplies. Still its a pretty one off WTF feat and there is no precedent for Loki doing such a thing with the destroyer.
Featwise, id say the strength differential is quite considerable which is what will keep the the destroyer on the defensive constantly and will lead to an accumulation of damage that will win the fight for Hulk. Lokis repairing of the damage unlike Hulks HF is consciously activated similar to how Surfer can heal himself which in the heat of a prolonged battle will make it much less effective. I dont think there is any evidence of merely being magically powered having a negating effect on even WWHs healing facotr (see Zom strange fight) let alone WBH.
Id like to see the scan of the destroyer soul sucking, for sure though as that might work.
So, let me get this straight... In order for The Destroyer to beat Hulk, in a KMC fight, people are suggesting that an entire Pantheon of skyfathers should be included, so that The Destroyer can leech their power?
1) Way to go, you guys might have made Carver's day. Hulk >= Skyfather 😉
2) That is the very definition of "outside help" - the powers are not his own and more to the point, they belong to actual characters
3) Hulk draws ambient and extra-dimensional energies. Both gamma based and nuclear (maybe other sources too), but he has reserves sufficient to create whole armies of Rulk-level beings.
4) Nothing in The Destroyer's arsenal indicates that it would affect WBH at all.
5) WBH would obliterate planets. I doubt very much The Destroyer can withstand that kind of attack.
Originally posted by janus77
So, let me get this straight... In order for The Destroyer to beat Hulk, in a KMC fight, people are suggesting that an entire Pantheon of skyfathers should be included, so that The Destroyer can leech their power?1) Way to go, you guys might have made Carver's day. Hulk >= Skyfather 😉
2) That is the very definition of "outside help" - the powers are not his own and more to the point, they belong to actual characters
3) Hulk draws ambient and extra-dimensional energies. Both gamma based and nuclear (maybe other sources too), but he has reserves sufficient to create whole armies of Rulk-level beings.
4) Nothing in The Destroyer's arsenal indicates that it would affect WBH at all.
5) WBH would obliterate planets. I doubt very much The Destroyer can withstand that kind of attack.
If you actually read the last few posts, you'd see that there's been other arguments outside of the Pantheon amping capabilities the Destroyer has brought up and that while Rage did bring it up as a tactic, no one is seriously arguing it for a method to be used by the Destroyer Armor in a forum match because of the nature of said feat: one time and extremely high end albeit canon.
That said, it is ironic, considering the events of HoTM being used as a given, which is easily Hulk's highest end feat and happened a single time on panel.
1.) Not sure how if the Destroyer Armor amps off of various pantheons that makes Hulk >= Skyfather. It doesn't traditionally need such a feat to beat Hulk, so it would definitely take some leap of Carver logic to get to that assumption.
2.) Not really. It's a source of extra-dimensional power, same as the beings that Dr. Strange or Zatanna or several mystical characters have summoned, or the powers of magical beings whom Black Alice can summon (who don't even have to be in the comic physically for her to do so). Them belonging to actual characters or not isn't really a point of contention because in the story the Destroyer reached out to their respective dimensions for energy; they don't need to be physically present.
3.) Okay.
4.) It can effect skyfathers with its energy output. There's nothing to suggest WBH would no sell the Destroyer at all. That's also without considering Loki's potent magic, which can also effect skyfathers.
5.) Well, first of all, I don't think collateral damage in of itself always trumps any other attack that doesn't cause massive collateral damage. Darkseid's Omega Effect can't destroy planets (that I'm aware of usually) but they certainly can harm beings who can endure planet busting attacks. Likewise, the Odin Force is more than capable of destroying a planet, but a focused Mjolnir toss amped with the OF is going to deal greater and focused damage. Secondly, the Anti-Force blast from Thor, which is cited as being able to destroy a planet, was completely no sold by the Destroyer (under the same writer no less). Mjolnir itself can survive a planet exploding, so logically, the much more durable Destroyer Armor can as well.
re: your point #4. You actually don't make a point/case aside from "it can effect skyfathers" [sic]. Lots of things can affect skyfathers, doesn't mean that they are necessarily of the order of magnitude that WBH was operating at - the "unleashed" potential of Hulk.
Don't forget, Savage Hulk's "affected" The Gardener (an Elder) and Galaxy Master (twice) and WBH is orders of magnitude more powerful than that.
edit.
#2 - there's a major difference between using the "force" that some entity emanates/bestows and using the energies that are internal to said entity.
What Strange does is basically use energies that emanate from beings, that flood their realms etc, that animate avatars like Juggernaut.
Strange wouldn't be allowed to call upon Cyttorak directly, draw down his own personal power, for vs battle. Though he can and does use the Crimson bands.
Similarly, when Strange drew upon Zom, he was taking in Zom's energies to battle Hulk. Thus he had outside help.
One situation is using energies that exist independent of the source/creator and the other is using the source/creator to amp.
Very much the definition of "outside help".
Originally posted by janus77
re your point #4. You actually don't make a point/case aside from "it can effect skyfathers" [sic]. Lots of things can affect skyfathers, doesn't mean that they are necessarily of the order of magnitude that WBH was operating at - the "unleashed" potential of Hulk.Don't forget, Savage Hulk's "affected" The Gardener (an Elder) and Galaxy Master (twice) and WBH is orders of magnitude more powerful than that.
Effect as in grievously harm them. Odin himself felt that the most expedient way of dealing with the Destroyer Armor was to forcibly remove its spirit after stopping time. I certainly feel Odin could have lasted more than a prolonged battle with the Armor and soaked plenty of damage, but such a thing wouldn't have been pleasant.
The Destroyer Armor flat out killed a Loki amped by Dr. Strange's artifacts and was going to kill King Thor, a legitimate Skyfather (albeit not a high end one) in his own right.
I think Savage Hulk vs. the Destroyer Armor is practically spite against Hulk to begin with. WBH has the stats to definitely knock around the DA and send it flying, but I don't see him destroying it and in the off chance he can damage it significantly, it can be repaired or Loki can just go intangible and fly beyond his reach while still assailing him from a distance.
Loki's durability is shabby at best - Voidtry destroyed him whilst he was in possession of the Norn Stones.
What lasting effect did The Destroyer have on Odin? was Odin injured?
Thanos blasted Odin and fought long and hard with him, so there is pretty much nothing to say that it is beyond a "trans level" feat.
There is no "fly beyond his reach" - Hulk's regular stomps/claps affect whole battlefields and his more aggressive ones can disintegrate planets.
At WBH levels, we're talking serious self-bfr before Loki will be at a relatively safe distance.
Also, intangibility has not really worked as a defence against Hulk in the past, I doubt Loki could make it work.
Originally posted by janus77
Loki's durability is shabby at best - Voidtry destroyed him whilst he was in possession of the Norn Stones.What lasting effect did The Destroyer have on Odin? was Odin injured?
Thanos blasted Odin and fought long and hard with him, so there is pretty much nothing to say that it is beyond a "trans level" feat.
Loki also planned to be killed by the Void and didn't resist him. If he didn't want to die, he could have vanished far beyond Void's means to detect, but his death needed to happen so he could be reborn. Loki's blunt force trauma is low, but his defenses against energy and mystical attacks is quite high. He can also reattach his own severed head to his body, so killing him outright is very difficult to achieve to begin with.
The Destroyer was stopped before it acted against Odin. Odin resorting to such a quick means to deal with the Destroyer instead of engaging it in open combat is a testament to the fact that he respected the power of the armor and didn't want to have to have a grueling contest with it, nor be forced to destroy it.
It did damage King Thor something fierce, though. Again, not a Skyfather on the likes of Odin, but still formidable enough, especially considering that the weakest Destroyer spirit wise was able to kill him (normal powered Thor) outright. Considering all the stuff Thor's endured that hasn't killed him, that's a pretty significant feat. JMS OF Thor also endured the blast.
That said, WBH is extremely formidable physically and does have a healing factor on top of that. The only problem is that the Destroyer Armor has extreme levels of durability as well on top of considerable offense and the fact it's being animated by an elite level mage who can call upon his own powers in addition to the Armor's. It's a long fight, but one I can't see Hulk winning due to his limited options.
Originally posted by janus77
There is no "fly beyond his reach" - Hulk's regular stomps/claps affect whole battlefields and his more aggressive ones can disintegrate planets.At WBH levels, we're talking serious self-bfr before Loki will be at a relatively safe distance.
Also, intangibility has not really worked as a defence against Hulk in the past, I doubt Loki could make it work.
Which the Destroyer can endure and under Loki's sway, phase or teleport out of the way of the shockwave.
Can Hulk effect intangible beings in a state of mystical intangibility?
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Loki also planned to be killed by the Void and didn't resist him. If he didn't want to die, he could have vanished far beyond Void's means to detect, but his death needed to happen so he could be reborn. Loki's blunt force trauma is low, but his defenses against energy and mystical attacks is quite high. He can also reattach his own severed head to his body, so killing him outright is very difficult to achieve to begin with.The Destroyer was stopped before it acted against Odin. Odin resorting to such a quick means to deal with the Destroyer instead of engaging it in open combat is a testament to the fact that he respected the power of the armor and didn't want to have to have a grueling contest with it, nor be forced to destroy it.
It did damage King Thor something fierce, though. Again, not a Skyfather on the likes of Odin, but still formidable enough, especially considering that the weakest Destroyer spirit wise was able to kill him (normal powered Thor) outright. Considering all the stuff Thor's endured that hasn't killed him, that's a pretty significant feat. JMS OF Thor also endured the blast.
That said, WBH is extremely formidable physically and does have a healing factor on top of that. The only problem is that the Destroyer Armor has extreme levels of durability as well on top of considerable offense and the fact it's being animated by an elite level mage who can call upon his own powers in addition to the Armor's. It's a long fight, but one I can't see Hulk winning due to his limited options.
We gauge durability and strength of attacks by natural feats, or feats that can tie to natural feats.
Going by feats, and not by what we think is the case, WBH should be able to rend the Destroyer with good effort. While WBH should be able to tank Destroyer's attacks fairly well (or at least with minor injuries that will heal up fast). So again WBH should beat the Destroyer soundly.
This is going in circles, you claim that The Destroyer can withstand WBH's attacks and that the reverse does not hold of WBH.
There has been nothing presented to reasonably support the contention that The Destroyer would endure WBH's attacks.
Nor has anything been presented in terms of offensive power, that suggests it would be a serious threat to WBH.
This is going in circles, you claim that WBH can withstand The Destroyer's attacks and that the reverse does not hold of The Destroyer.
There has been nothing presented to reasonably support the contention that WBH would endure The Destroyer's attacks.
Nor has anything been presented in terms of offensive power, that suggests it would be a serious threat to Ther Destroyer.
Originally posted by janus77
This is going in circles, you claim that The Destroyer can withstand WBH's attacks and that the reverse does not hold of WBH.There has been nothing presented to reasonably support the contention that The Destroyer would endure WBH's attacks.
Nor has anything been presented in terms of offensive power, that suggests it would be a serious threat to WBH.
It endured the Anti-Force at point blank range, which is capable of destroying a planet. It's significantly more durable than Mjolnir, which can endure going through stars, planets exploding, and the energies which would destroy a galaxy. So yes, there are feats, plenty of them, to warrant the Destroyer Armor can endure Hulk.
The Destroyer + Loki's spell craft are both enough to harm Skyfather beings separately, let alone together.
And you never answered whether Hulk can affect a mystically intangible being, let alone one who can teleport across the battlefield, make independent illusions of himself, mindrape, etc.
I'm presenting to you feats and facts, and you're dismissing them for...well, whatever reason you feel like I guess. Even Naija and Psycho Gundam are at least open to the idea that the Armor can harm Hulk (which going by feats, is extremely likely and almost a given).
Originally posted by h1a8
We gauge durability and strength of attacks by natural feats, or feats that can tie to natural feats.Going by feats, and not by what we think is the case, WBH should be able to rend the Destroyer with good effort. While WBH should be able to tank Destroyer's attacks fairly well (or at least with minor injuries that will heal up fast). So again WBH should beat the Destroyer soundly.
In your feeble mind yeah, but on paper no.
What Jake has mentioned is fact, Destroyer is powerful out right, but a person like Loki, Thor, Odin etc can bring their own powers into play added to the armor devastating powers that can challenge a sky father and give him a pause speaks volume on the armor capability's, Destroyer is far beyond Hulk, Hulk can poinded away all he wants, unless he has Celestial type power to slag it, Hulk gets raped.