Using Mindless Ones as a measure is a waste of time due to fluctuating showings. They have some good showings but they also have plenty of shitty ones. It all depends on the writer, in the HoTM they were typical faceless army that is troublesome in large numbers.
The Destroyer Armor. Even in regards to raw might, it can access and wield more power than Hulk can. I wonder if we'll ever see it drain all the pantheons of their power forcefully again.
Originally posted by Naija boy
Much to address here. Firstly, the mindless ones durability DOES fluctuate, but they certainly more than one feat. They have instances of being unharmable to even classic strange to even Umar herself in the past commenting on their near indestructability which gives an extremely strong precedent for the claims made in HOTM. Furthermore, your denigration of the neutron star feat is virtually enitrely based on your determination that the impressiveness of the feat was lost on the writer and that it should thus be discarded. Disregarding a feat because it violates your preconceived notion of what characters should be capable of withstanding, while in clear contradiction to the authorial intent of the writer is extremely faulty and whimisical argumentation. Particularly when we are discussing a medium that relies routinely on the use of such fantastical (and indeed some times illogical) displays in order to emphasize character attributes. The amount of feats that could be discarded on such reasoning would be huge i. While definitely a faulty argument, this is still tangential to the main argument since i didnt even reference that feat in order to try to aggrandize the mindless ones. I am simply assessing them by what was actually contained and mentioned regarding them within HOTM.The pertinent point u seem to be missing is the importance of the numbers of the mindless ones in determining the impressiveness of Hulks feat. Even taking the lower portrayals of the mindless ones they have always been a threat to the skyfather level Dormammu and Umar in their enitrety, because of their huge numbers. Destroying one mindless one might be easy depending on their portrayal. However, destroying thousands? millions? billions or more? that becomes much harder because in order to do that you would have to output whatever amount of force is needed to destroy one, times the astronomical number of mindless ones that there are. This can either be released progressively (by killing them one at a time) or simultaneously (all at once like hulk did). In the case of a simultaneous destruction, if the amount of force needed to kill one mindless one (regardless of portrayal level) is spread over more than one of them, then the force per unit volume/mass is less on each individual mindless one and thus the blast would have less effect on each individually than it would if there were just one. Translate that to the HOTM feat, and we had Hulks residual shockwave ( a minute fraction of the force at the epicentre) producing force capable of wrecking the entirety of the mindless ones simultaneously, whose numbers were so great that Umar could not even survive them let alone put them all down (simultaneously or otherwise). A proper understanding of this shows why that part of the feat is absolutely insane (the most impressive part by far) and without taking this into account, you are underselling it big time. Labelling it PIS that it was mentioned that Umar wouldnt survive is more whimisical argumentation that further defies established on panel precedents/history since the mindless ones due to their numbers have historically been huge threats to Umar and Dormammu and have had to be put behind a barrier as opposed to being completely eradicated.
Furthermore, attempting to assess the potency of WBHs feat in this scenario but limiting it within the context of a superimposed label (trans), and thereby adjudging Umars inability to perform the feat as PIS due to her superior superimposed label of skyfather..... is fallacious and clear circular reasoning. Your conclusion(it is PIS), is assumed in your premises (WBH is trans and Umar is skyfather) as the implication is that a "trans" level character can in no case perform what a skyfather fails to do(which is false). It is the near equivalent of downgrading Thors great performance against the celestials because Odin is a skyfather and should thus outperform Thor, making his failure to do so PIS. WBH being labelled trans (especially due to limited scope abilities and lack of versatility) does not take away from the gravity of his depicted output on panel and, his outperforming Umar in that scenario.
Lastly on this, The dark dimensional matter may have been weaker but that effect doesnt apply to the mindless ones themselves nor any other characters within it btw. Not to mention the dimension of the mindless ones (which was combined with the dark dimension) is actually made up of denser material than earth
Ok i probably should have put Dark dimension planet (as i normally do) in my earlier post. Whether Pak portrayed the entire dark dimension as a planet, or just showed a planet as part of the dark dimension is really irrelevant to my core contention and im happy to stick with the former. All that we know definitively is that WBH destroyed a planet that was the combination of the Dark Dimension throneworld and realm of the mindless ones. Thats fine by me and i wont contend otherwise.
As evidenced by the more detailed explanation i gave above, No it would not. Mjolnir has gotten broken by much much less forces than Hulks impact quite frankly. Im not sure of this portal feat that you are referencing but id like to see it and the context so that i know how much it can really be assesed as a durability feat. Then we would have to weigh it against the times mjolnir has been broken by forces demonstrably weaker than whatever this feat is. Moreover blocking energy is impressive but not exactly an effective gauge since it would obviously depend on the level of exertion of the skyfather (since even the likes of Surfer and Thor have taken hits from skyfathers with varying degrees of success and im sure you wouldnt at all call them unharmable to WBH impact output). Moreover if the blocking was a means of absorbing it (not saying it was but id like to see it), then it is not really a durability feat at all.
Sweet God I don't feel like going through any of this again 😂 Look, I've explained my point and yours. And though I still think I'm right on this, we're not making any progress convincing each other from the looks of it. So in order to save time and energy I extend a virtual bro fist. Otherwise this will go on forever as we are both pretty well set in our respective opinions.
Originally posted by iceman24567
Shut up
Originally posted by Damborgson
Sweet God I don't feel like going through any of this again 😂 Look, I've explained my point and yours. And though I still think I'm right on this, we're not making any progress convincing each other from the looks of it. So in order to save time and energy I extend a virtual bro fist. Otherwise this will go on forever as we are both pretty well set in our respective opinions.
All that i mentioned regarding the impressiveness of the feat pertaining to the mindless ones and rest of things in HOTM are facts though. Still we can definitely agree to disagree on the outcome of the battle since its not a stomp either way. 👆
Originally posted by carver9Carver apparently = h1 if he thinks punch differs that much from an energy blast in comics. Apparently Mindless Ones are incredibly durable... unless someone gets the idea to punch them.
@BranlorPunch=energy blast. I learn something new every day. Then you are completely ignoring the Mindless ones history and focusing on their low showings. Like them withstanding Dormammu and Strange power on a consistent basis. Lowball away bro.
In that comic with Hulk, they were pretty uber since Umar couldn't stop them under her own power. What's so hard to comprehend. No one asked you to comment on my post. You are the one that always dissect people posts trying to find flaws.
And you're highballing if you think they withstand Dormammu power on a consistent basis... actually show me this one.
Strange I don't care about. Good feat for them I guess. It still doesn't erase their other showings.
And that's stupid. If we're going to focus on how powerful Umar can or has been written to be with her very impressive feats, then her failing to stop, or not trying to stop the Mindless Ones is utterly retarded.
Again, this falls under picking and choosing. Apparently we're supposed to believe according to you that Thor/Thing, and anything else that has destroyed the Mindless Ones is PIS. However, Dormammu (according to you), and Umar (who you said had Dormammu's power) can't destroy them so that makes Hulk's feat acceptable and right in line with their high feat history.
So basically, Hulk > Dormammu's power according to your line of logic. Actually, not only that, but according to you Hulk > Umar and Dormammu's power.
Clearly Hulk's feat is the one to accept here, and this puts Hulk above Odin apparently since he and Dorm are about equal.
They certainly aren't or weren't canon fodder, instead they were powerful beings in this case. Every other scene where they got damaged was PIS and doesn't count though, because they were canon fodder because apparently they resist Dormammu on a consistent basis!
Your logic has never seemed more Carver my dear brobud.
No one asked you to comment on my posts.
I am. And if you don't like that, then don't flaw. That's not even an argument really, and doesn't really make sense in carvtext:
"Please don't focus on me spouting ass shit on my end, but instead focus on their high feats please."
Originally posted by Naija boy
Your inability to provide any form of reasoned counter argument is glaring.
I have, Im not going to write an novel on it, if that's what you are asking. Destroyer has demonstrated over the years that he can't be harmed unless you are sky father level or beyond being or some serious PIS, which Hulk under pak has been doing that still wont help Hulk. Hulk cant slow down Destroyer period he cant even contain it, he doesn't have the necessary power to do so.
Destroyer has unlimited strength, limitless stamina, invulnerability up there, matter manipulation abilities, and cosmic /mystical energy output, Hulks healing factor can keep him in the fight only for so long, when Loki occupied the Destroyer, it even gave Odin a pause, and this was classic Odin that says a lot.
You have Loki who knows the armor better than anybody else except for Odin, if Maestro Hulk who zero expertise of the armor enter controlled, and beat Savage Hulk down, never mind the fact that Hulk was getting madder and couldn't even slow it down, what do you think Loki is going too do? He's sure as hell is not going to take it lite on Hulk that's for sure.
AD 10/10
I didnt ask for a novel I asked for reasoned arguments that go beyond the "I dont like it so its PIS" type arguments and that can actually be supported with on panel evidence . Destroyer hasnt shown to be beyond the damage threshold of a continuous WBH assault if you actually take into account the gravity of WBH feats.
Destroyer doesnt have unlimited strength (like to see you prove that) and is considerably less strong than Hulk and nothing has been provided to support his maxing out WBH healing factor. Matter manipulation is not likely to work either (seeing as much weaker Hulks have shown resistance to it in varying degrees). "Giving Odin Pause" is ambiguous on not really indicative of much here, as Odins "pause" was certainly not do to a lack of power or inability to defeat the destroyer on his part.
Maestro beating savage hulk in the destroyer is impressive and i would expect Loki to so to savage Hulk even easier but it is a whole different ball game when discussing WBH a character exponentially stronger than Savage Hulk was.
No way does the destroyer win 10/10 as it is not likely he even wins this match at all.