Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Yes, but I'm a bigger arsehole than the people who showed it to him the first time
The first scan wasn't canon and the scans I showed you were recent portrayals of the characters. It also helps that Umar who is walking around with Dormammu powers and is in complete control of the Dark Dimension couldn't even stop the Mindless Ones. You are clearly trying to lowball the characters.
On panel, Umar couldn't stop the Mindless Ones.
Recent portrayals and stop trying to ignore whats said on panel.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So if we can only use recent portrayals, how is it we sometimes use Savage Hulk destroying countless dimensions with his punches?
Ive never used that as a showing for any recent Hulks BUT it has been shown on panel that WWH/WBH>>>>>Savage Hulk. When that is pretty much made plain and clear, using Savage fts, a weaker Hulk isnt wrong at all.
Originally posted by carver9
Ive never used that as a showing for any recent Hulks BUT it has been shown on panel that WWH/WBH>>>>>Savage Hulk. When that is pretty much made.plain and clear, using Savage fts, a weaker Hulk isnt wrong st all.
Originally posted by Damborgson
Mindless ones are generally considered fodder. There is no getting around the fact that they are broken from everything ranging to WBH to fire hydrants hitting them. Their one "feat" that people like to base their durability on a skrull talking about how they resisted a neutron star and were able to mine on them or something similar. Here is everything that is wrong with that: 1. Nothing stands on a neutron star. They spin 300 times per second approximately. 2. Nothing resists the gravity of a neutron star. Even if they were somehow magically placed on it the force of impact would be enough to level worlds. Seeing as how an object the size of a marshmellow dropped from approximately 6 feet would carry the power of and produce a blast the size of a nuclear explosion when the neutron star is hit. Everything that could make that some sort of feat is flawed, and I doubt the writer even knew what a neutron star is. They typically don't examine things as closely as we do on forums and probably thought it sounded cool. So breaking mindless ones even while it was a shockwave that did it isn't something to really get all pepped up about in my opinion. And that Umar somehow couldn't do it, I'd chalk up to PIS. She is a legit skyfather afterall. WBH in all his glory is still trans at best.also the mindless ones didn't get any favors from the dark dimension: http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/mind/DrStrangeSorcerersupre50-11.jpg
Much to address here. Firstly, the mindless ones durability DOES fluctuate, but they certainly more than one feat. They have instances of being unharmable to even classic strange to even Umar herself in the past commenting on their near indestructability which gives an extremely strong precedent for the claims made in HOTM. Furthermore, your denigration of the neutron star feat is virtually enitrely based on your determination that the impressiveness of the feat was lost on the writer and that it should thus be discarded. Disregarding a feat because it violates your preconceived notion of what characters should be capable of withstanding, while in clear contradiction to the authorial intent of the writer is extremely faulty and whimisical argumentation. Particularly when we are discussing a medium that relies routinely on the use of such fantastical (and indeed some times illogical) displays in order to emphasize character attributes. The amount of feats that could be discarded on such reasoning would be huge i. While definitely a faulty argument, this is still tangential to the main argument since i didnt even reference that feat in order to try to aggrandize the mindless ones. I am simply assessing them by what was actually contained and mentioned regarding them within HOTM.
The pertinent point u seem to be missing is the importance of the numbers of the mindless ones in determining the impressiveness of Hulks feat. Even taking the lower portrayals of the mindless ones they have always been a threat to the skyfather level Dormammu and Umar in their enitrety, because of their huge numbers. Destroying one mindless one might be easy depending on their portrayal. However, destroying thousands? millions? billions or more? that becomes much harder because in order to do that you would have to output whatever amount of force is needed to destroy one, times the astronomical number of mindless ones that there are. This can either be released progressively (by killing them one at a time) or simultaneously (all at once like hulk did). In the case of a simultaneous destruction, if the amount of force needed to kill one mindless one (regardless of portrayal level) is spread over more than one of them, then the force per unit volume/mass is less on each individual mindless one and thus the blast would have less effect on each individually than it would if there were just one. Translate that to the HOTM feat, and we had Hulks residual shockwave ( a minute fraction of the force at the epicentre) producing force capable of wrecking the entirety of the mindless ones simultaneously, whose numbers were so great that Umar could not even survive them let alone put them all down (simultaneously or otherwise). A proper understanding of this shows why that part of the feat is absolutely insane (the most impressive part by far) and without taking this into account, you are underselling it big time. Labelling it PIS that it was mentioned that Umar wouldnt survive is more whimisical argumentation that further defies established on panel precedents/history since the mindless ones due to their numbers have historically been huge threats to Umar and Dormammu and have had to be put behind a barrier as opposed to being completely eradicated.
Furthermore, attempting to assess the potency of WBHs feat in this scenario but limiting it within the context of a superimposed label (trans), and thereby adjudging Umars inability to perform the feat as PIS due to her superior superimposed label of skyfather..... is fallacious and clear circular reasoning. Your conclusion(it is PIS), is assumed in your premises (WBH is trans and Umar is skyfather) as the implication is that a "trans" level character can in no case perform what a skyfather fails to do(which is false). It is the near equivalent of downgrading Thors great performance against the celestials because Odin is a skyfather and should thus outperform Thor, making his failure to do so PIS. WBH being labelled trans (especially due to limited scope abilities and lack of versatility) does not take away from the gravity of his depicted output on panel and, his outperforming Umar in that scenario.
Lastly on this, The dark dimensional matter may have been weaker but that effect doesnt apply to the mindless ones themselves nor any other characters within it btw. Not to mention the dimension of the mindless ones (which was combined with the dark dimension) is actually made up of denser material than earth
Another issue: No, the whole dimension did not get destroyed. Thats positively laughable. Umar said "hello destroyers of my dimension" and people just ook off running. It'd have been figurative more than anything else. There was litterally nothing besides that comment that would suggest that the whole dimension went splat. Which is why I'm against the idea that WBH died at any point during that ordeal. We never saw him die or reform at any point, and comments that suggest it are not enough. That said, it goes the same for the other part. He broke a planet, killed the mindless ones, bi-beast, wendigo, armageddon, etc. But that was the extent. There is absolutely no reason to try and make it better than it was. To try that hurts the feat more than it helps and it becomes reaching. If the Hulk were destroying dimensions with the impact of power, of course I'd agree he mangles the destroyer. But he did not. So we have to work with what was given.
Ok i probably should have put Dark dimension planet (as i normally do) in my earlier post. Whether Pak portrayed the entire dark dimension as a planet, or just showed a planet as part of the dark dimension is really irrelevant to my core contention and im happy to stick with the former. All that we know definitively is that WBH destroyed a planet that was the combination of the Dark Dimension throneworld and realm of the mindless ones. Thats fine by me and i wont contend otherwise.
Now, The destroyer would be hitting him harder than anyone did in HOTM. Wendigo is a non factor. Fists that can groove Mjolnir are not. Mjolnir has resisted stuff much, much, much more powerful than what the Hulk did. It's destroyed portals that dwarf stars (which caused an explosion that in turn dwarfed the portal) and emerged unscathed. As well as blocked energy from sky fathers without damage. It's durability is without a doubt beyond the measure of getting hurt by the Hulk's impact
As evidenced by the more detailed explanation i gave above, No it would not. Mjolnir has gotten broken by much much less forces than Hulks impact quite frankly. Im not sure of this portal feat that you are referencing but id like to see it and the context so that i know how much it can really be assesed as a durability feat. Then we would have to weigh it against the times mjolnir has been broken by forces demonstrably weaker than whatever this feat is. Moreover blocking energy is impressive but not exactly an effective gauge since it would obviously depend on the level of exertion of the skyfather (since even the likes of Surfer and Thor have taken hits from skyfathers with varying degrees of success and im sure you wouldnt at all call them unharmable to WBH impact output). Moreover if the blocking was a means of absorbing it (not saying it was but id like to see it), then it is not really a durability feat at all.
think it's reasonable to infer that throughout the Hulks' history, despite the power level, there has always been something that can tax his hf enough to where it cannot hold up. The destroyer has the power do that in my opinion. Especially when powered by Loki, who knows how to use the destroyer much better than typical mortals and gives it his own powers on top of that. After a certain point it's know that the destroyer gains power due to the host that inhabits it. Which is why the Balder destroyer was not as impressive as the Loki Destroyer or Thor destroyer were or other mortalk fair even lower and are to weak to stay in the destroyer even f the armor is completely unscathed. Thor has battered the destroyer and knocked a piddly mortal soul out of it before. Even if the armor didn't have a scratch on it. That is not the case with characters like Loki though/ (and yes I know you weren't lowballing or anything, It's just something I felt like putting in the last post
I do recall WWHulks HF getting taxed by Zeus. That was a far far weaker Hulk against a character more powerful than the destroyer. The former cannot serve as a precedent for the latter. When we then take into account the magnitutde of the forces Hulk endured, the whole Hf getting maxed out line of reasoning falls apart and is shown to have little basis in on panel reality. I know that the destroyer does gain power after a certain point in relation to the spirit that empowers it and even acknowledge that a Loki empowered one would be stronger than a balder empowered one. My contention is that the gap has NOT been shown to be gargantuan in the case of Loki and balder and dont think that can actually be substantiated with any form of on panel evidence.
Thor's durability is very much in that ball park. Hulk has better damage soak no doubt, (it's not comparable) but what classic Thor has resisted is nothing short of incredible without a prominent healing factor. Current showings aside, a few months of low showings do not strip away decades that have made Thor the top hero in Marvel. THAT SAID I agree that the destroyers beam would not have the same effect on WBH that it did on Thor. I do stick by though that the Hulk would be fazed. Seeing as how it was only a flash of the visor opening that Killed Thor, and not an extended attack. There was a flash of light and when the avengers turned to see, Thor was dead. Loki has the option to keep that visor open. As well as imply attacks that would slice through Mjolnir like butter, and therefore the Hulk as well. Mjolnir could have been at the epicenter of that attack in HOTM and emerged unscathed. Of that I have no doubt from what Mjolnir has taken in the past.
Thors durability is not in the same ballpark as WBHs unless we take a few isolated high showings ignoring the consistent. Im not even looking at his current string of atrocious mishaps as I accept that he does have high herald level durability on average obviously but WBH tops that (cannot at all see Thor on average no selling simultaneous attacks from Wendigo Bi Beast and Armcheddon). The benefit WBH has is that he appeared relatively few times only to be bombarded with high feats in every appearance. I dont doubt that Hulk would be affected by the destroyer beam (would heal very quickly), but i certainly do NOT place it at a similar level of force (even if left open for a prolonged period) to that which Hulk endured in the HOTM collision and there is little in the way of on panel evidence supporting such. Hence his Hf getting maxed out or even close to it is just not likely. I recall mjolnir being at the epicenter of the collision between Thor,Fenris, and Ulik and breaking. That collision was much less powerful than the one in HOTM (using one much is being generous). I also remeber it breaking when Odinforce Thor hit Bor and unless you think Odinfroce Thor hit Bor with more force than was at the epicentre of the collision in HOTM (which is preposterous) then that is a second time that we have mjolnir breaking from forces less than at the epicentre ( remember several orders of magnitude greater than what the utterly devestating shockwave contained) of the HOTM feat. Still i dont doubt that such beams can slice Hulk, its just that maxing out his HF is really out of the question
It doesn't matter if it's more than one attack though really. The attack that the combined might of the dark gods unleashed is a ridiculous amount of power. It was endangering Odins life (weakened
Odin, but still) without a direct hit. That is true durability. The destroyer walked away intact from that fight as well. And i see it frankly as being above what the Hulk could do. Sure, Hulk can
break the destroyer. But honestly, with his power set eventually anything will break. Loki isn't stupid though. He know when to end things before they are beyond his control, and at the beginning
of the fight, I have no doubt things very much would be in his control. He also doesn't particularly like extended fights unless they cause pain to Thor. He'd be out to kill from the start pretty much
It was impressive of the destroyer to tank that attack no doubt (albeit Odin mentioned that it almost perished) but that is not the same as a prolonged assault from WBH which is what this will eventually turn into. The longer the fight goes the better it is for WBH as his durability, strength,hf etc will only get better and he will definitely ge damaging it. Conversely the destroyer will have to attempt to max out WBHs HF/durability damage soak quickly which given WBH feats, it has simply not shown to be able to. As i said, IF it has something estoeric that would be the best way to go.
Like I said Thanosi are not Thanos. Of this there is no doubt, but their durability (especially that one who was about as close it got to the real deal) is comparable. It wasn't a rejected clone
Id need to see evidence that this had durability comparable to the real deal for anymore to be said on that.
Yes I agree Pak whored the hell out of it. I never though of writing posts like these against the Hulk if I was arguing in favor of the destroyer. He was exceptionally thorough in trying to take
Thats what happens when a closet battleboarder gets hold of a character i guess. Hopefully surfer gets a guy like that soon.heh.
Originally posted by carver9Prove it wasn't canon.
The first scan wasn't canon and the scans I showed you were recent portrayals of the characters. It also helps that Umar who is walking around with Dormammu powers and is in complete control of the Dark Dimension couldn't even stop the Mindless Ones. You are clearly trying to lowball the characters.On panel, Umar couldn't stop the Mindless Ones.
Recent portrayals and stop trying to ignore whats said on panel.
Did she even actually try? I mean really try. This is the girl who was throwing planetary weight at Thor, and her and Dormammu (who you're making a case for her being the same) beat Eternity. Obviously she was written to her potential. There's also the part where she was the only one who tanked the Hulk attack... but I digress.
Also, saying I'm lowballing is cute considering you're highballing the shit out of them. Even in the Nova arc this fruitcup was cracking their face with a punch
http://s1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc513/dmills31/?action=view¤t=1315092620942.jpg
You think their ****ing averages is working in neutron stars? Not highballing at all.
Basically it boils down to is that Hulk's feat is 100% accepted while every other instance of them getting damaged, destroyed, or have ED is lowballing.
Thing, and Thor destroying them isn't impressive, but you bet your right asscheek that Hulk destroying them is the best thing since tinted van windows.
Recent portrayals? Like Gladiator containing a star Carver? Like Gladiator flying 100x lightspeed? Don't be a total jizz towel Carver, I'm not stupid.
Also, the scan I showed was from like 9 years ago... How out with the times that is!
Originally posted by carver9
The first scan wasn't canon and the scans I showed you were recent portrayals of the characters. It also helps that Umar who is walking around with Dormammu powers and is in complete control of the Dark Dimension couldn't even stop the Mindless Ones. You are clearly trying to lowball the characters.On panel, Umar couldn't stop the Mindless Ones.
Recent portrayals and stop trying to ignore whats said on panel.
@Branlor
Punch=energy blast. I learn something new every day. Then you are completely ignoring the Mindless ones history and focusing on their low showings. Like them withstanding Dormammu and Strange power on a consistent basis. Lowball away bro.
In that comic with Hulk, they were pretty uber since Umar couldn't stop them under her own power. What's so hard to comprehend. No one asked you to comment on my post. You are the one that always dissect people posts trying to find flaws.
PIS and CIS off, didn't see that, Destroyer definitely wins here especially Loki controlling it, yeah Hulk is screwed. Hulk is fighting something that can fight indefinitely without slowing down at all, if I recall Destroyer with Maestro controlling it wrecked the Savage Hulk in his own comic, granted Savage Hulk is weaker, it still implies. Maestro allowed the Hulk too Hulk out and the Hulk still got wrecked
Destroyer is High end trans and can reach Sky Father level and beyond depending on the souls inhabiting the armor, Hulk will not tank Destroyer Disintegration beam or any other ability Loki throw at him, Hulk will have to find Loki body that's the only he can win or hope for Thor to come by BFR him, another that Hulk is screwed.
And this is coming from a Hulk fan!!
