Originally posted by Naija boy
Warrior madness Thor does literally signify 10x amp but it seems the thread starter was referencing the blood and thunder version. No matter as regardless of character the result remains the same.
WM and or bloodlusted counts as I could never really distinguish the two anyway.
😛
Originally posted by Naija boy
Warrior madness Thor does literally signify 10x amp
Evidence? This seems like a hard claim to prove, and I have more Thor knowledge than most (though I'll be happy to be proven wrong). Not to mention that most of his power is with Mjolnir anyway, which obviously can't be "amped" in a traditional sense.
Originally posted by Naija boy
None of the feats you mentioned are above skyfather at all. Giving a general reference to his moving through characters (aka team busting) without giving an idea of the individual context surrounding each fight as well as without taking into account how the characters fought him and how that would differ forumwise....does not cut it. There is also the matter of his less than stellar showings against weaker opposition to consider. His fight against Monarch was Guardian amped and thus inapplicable here ( even then Monarch fought foolishly ). Then, Punching a wall of reality and its result, is rather unquantifiable and certainly cannot be reliably shown to be a >Skyfather levelThe other feats you mentioned such as moving and destroying planets for instance, are not above skyfather or even close really. You havent even provided a strength feat that can be quantifiably placed above Hulks portion of the HOTM feat, and Hulk has assistance from a much more powerfully portrayed Thor here.
Prime key to victory would most definitley be the extent to which he utilizes his speed (which imo, in character would not be to the extent which he becomes entirely unhittable). A heavily physical confrontation against these two toe to toe, (ala his fight against Ion) is unfavorable to even him
You have a much lower estimation of his fights then. Monarch, who I'd say is well beyond the duo as well, and took out dozens/hundreds of herald-level beings, none of them fodder. And Prime practically no-sold the Monarch-explosion, and absorbed some of it to become stronger, which is an absurd durability feat.
Then there's Mxy, the Corps, PC Supes, escaping the Speed Force, Ion, the dozens of heroes he took on more than once. No-selling Black Adam's attacks. The planet moving/destroying was also contextual. There's some that could do it with their best attack. Then there's Prime, who one-paneled a planet simply by flying into it, and was casually rearranging others. He was nowhere near his full capacity, or even straining himself. Not all planet-busting feats are the same. Had he wanted, it's clear he could've one shot an entire solar system, for example, in just a few panels. Say what you will about skyfather, but there's not many Trans beings with that level of power. Amped or not (usually not for many of those), the kid is at least high Trans.
I also feel the need to reiterate that you still seem to be insisting that I'm claiming he's > Skyfather, which isn't the case. I think Odin's feats collectively trump Prime's. I agree with Harbinger's assessment that he straddles the line between Trans. and Skyfather.
Originally posted by carver9
Martian Manhunter had a good showing against Prime and Conner worked Prime twice to my knowledge.
J'onn knocked him back after surprising him by phasing. Connor got himself killed in what was probably Prime's lowest showing of that arc (which is saying something in and of itself). I think they had a rematch, but there were others involved in the fight.
Originally posted by Digi
You have a much lower estimation of his fights then. Monarch, who I'd say is well beyond the duo as well, and took out dozens/hundreds of herald-level beings, none of them fodder. And Prime practically no-sold the Monarch-explosion, and absorbed some of it to become stronger, which is an absurd durability feat.
Agree.
His showing against Monarch's attacks was impressive as heck. We can always bring up all his other feats, but him plowing through that Monarch is always getting undersold. That Monarch was treating different iterations of Supes, GL's, and Wondy's, etc. like gnats. His on panel power and implied power was nutz.
Originally posted by carver9I still can't believe that you are still bringing this up. Where does it state that he was playing around or taking prime lightly? Just read some comics bro. He was trying to conquer the universe and you think he will play around? If you think it was because of his speech then you have to read more comics, that's how he speaks.
Monarch also held back against Prime and didn't fight anywhere close to his arena standards.
Originally posted by Digi
Evidence? This seems like a hard claim to prove, and I have more Thor knowledge than most (though I'll be happy to be proven wrong). Not to mention that most of his power is with Mjolnir anyway, which obviously can't be "amped" in a traditional sense.
True Warrior madness was mentioned as givng a 10x amp in Thor v1 502. Its irrelevant however as the thread starter indicated he was talking about Blood and thunder Thor not true Warrior madness Thor.
You have a much lower estimation of his fights then. Monarch, who I'd say is well beyond the duo as well, and took out dozens/hundreds of herald-level beings, none of them fodder. And Prime practically no-sold the Monarch-explosion, and absorbed some of it to become stronger, which is an absurd durability feat. Then there's Mxy, the Corps, PC Supes, escaping the Speed Force, Ion, the dozens of heroes he took on more than once. No-selling Black Adam's attacks. The planet moving/destroying was also contextual. There's some that could do it with their best attack. Then there's Prime, who one-paneled a planet simply by flying into it, and was casually rearranging others. He was nowhere near his full capacity, or even straining himself. Not all planet-busting feats are the same. Had he wanted, it's clear he could've one shot an entire solar system, for example, in just a few panels. Say what you will about skyfather, but there's not many Trans beings with that level of power. Amped or not (usually not for many of those), the kid is at least high Trans. I also feel the need to reiterate that you still seem to be insisting that I'm claiming he's > Skyfather, which isn't the case. I think Odin's feats collectively trump Prime's. I agree with Harbinger's assessment that he straddles the line between Trans. and Skyfather.
I have adequate respect for his accomplishments and powerlevel, but Im just attempting to cut through some of the exageration that trumps substance often seen in the case of prime. Declaring feats of his that are not even skyfather level (and some are not even close) to be "above skyfather" is a paramount example of this . Ive already mentioned how the Prime that fought Monarch was Guardian amped Prime and theirby not even pertinent to this thread. But even then, you described him as having practically no sold the attack from Monarch...... when in actuality he was koed and seen floating helplessly after. It is undoubtedly an insane feat that he even survived, and thus there is no need to misconstrue it.
The Mxy incident is hardly even a feat and certainly NOT a battle feat seeing as Mxy didnt really do anything, perhaps due to primes magic immunity, perhaps due to PIS. Not to mention iirc that was guardian amped Prime as well which makes it not relevant to this thread. PC supes was also not operating anywhere near his actual PC levels at that point in time so that hardly qualifies as above skyfather. No selling Black Adam was largely due to magic immunity iirc and even without that is not even a skyfather level feat let alone above it. Escaping the speedforce is impressive but cant even be shown to be skyfather level let alone above it. Same goes for his fight against Ion and so on and so forth. To present these fights in such a grandiose manner (as to which they can be above skyfather level feats involves quite a bit of exageration and context omission.
It is true that not all planet moving/destroying is the same and I readily agree that Primes feats in that regard are above what is typical of high herald level strength (though im not sure what you mean by him being able to oneshot the solar system). Still while he is firmly within the Trans category and thus easily above high herald level strength. none of the relevant strength feats can be shown to be quantifiably superior to Hulks feat in HOTM, which is why i thoroughly object to their being blown so way out of proportion. I understand that you are not saying Prime is above skyfather level overall, but wrongfully aggrandizing his feats even without having that ultimate conclusion of "skyfather!" causes the same problem imo as while i completely agree that he is trans, i find some your description of his feats to be quite inflated.
Originally posted by Naija boy
True Warrior madness was mentioned as givng a 10x amp in Thor v1 502. Its irrelevant however as the thread starter indicated he was talking about Blood and thunder Thor not true Warrior madness Thor.
I'll have to go back and read it, but it seems like something that will be hard to see as anything but writer hyperbole. Mjolnir doesn't get amped, his lightning doesn't hit any harder. His versatility with the hammer doesn't improve. So he gets....angrier and stronger?
Originally posted by Naija boy
I have adequate respect for his accomplishments and powerlevel, but Im just attempting to cut through some of the exageration that trumps substance often seen in the case of prime. Declaring feats of his that are not even skyfather level (and some are not even close) to be "above skyfather" is a paramount example of this . Ive already mentioned how the Prime that fought Monarch was Guardian amped Prime and theirby not even pertinent to this thread. But even then, you described him as having practically no sold the attack from Monarch...... when in actuality he was koed and seen floating helplessly after. It is undoubtedly an insane feat that he even survived, and thus there is no need to misconstrue it.The Mxy incident is hardly even a feat and certainly NOT a battle feat seeing as Mxy didnt really do anything, perhaps due to primes magic immunity, perhaps due to PIS. Not to mention iirc that was guardian amped Prime as well which makes it not relevant to this thread. PC supes was also not operating anywhere near his actual PC levels at that point in time so that hardly qualifies as above skyfather. No selling Black Adam was largely due to magic immunity iirc and even without that is not even a skyfather level feat let alone above it. Escaping the speedforce is impressive but cant even be shown to be skyfather level let alone above it. Same goes for his fight against Ion and so on and so forth. To present these fights in such a grandiose manner (as to which they can be above skyfather level feats involves quite a bit of exageration and context omission.
It is true that not all planet moving/destroying is the same and I readily agree that Primes feats in that regard are above what is typical of high herald level strength (though im not sure what you mean by him being able to oneshot the solar system). Still while he is firmly within the Trans category and thus easily above high herald level strength. none of the relevant strength feats can be shown to be quantifiably superior to Hulks feat in HOTM, which is why i thoroughly object to their being blown so way out of proportion. I understand that you are not saying Prime is above skyfather level overall, but wrongfully aggrandizing his feats even without having that ultimate conclusion of "skyfather!" causes the same problem imo as while i completely agree that he is trans, i find some your description of his feats to be quite inflated.
And I think you're underselling him still. We could add in Time Trapper in the Legion story arc (not to mention the fight with the Legion iteslf). Or heat vision-ing right through Kal's hand. Or his speed, which isn't being talked about here (and really should be).
It's also unclear whether or not the Black Adam thing was magic immunity or just psychotic durability. Surviving the Monarch encounter suggests that it could easily be the latter. Btw, no-sell was the wrong word there, but he survived none the worse for wear. Monarch shouldn't be underestimated. As mentioned by Harbinger, he was treating legit high heralds like gnats, and backing up his demeanor every time he did anything.
I don't know of a single herald who could casually wreck or rearrange planets like Prime, and that includes Superman, Surfer, and their best feats.
Like I said, when you add together his entire history, which also includes almost no bad feats whatsoever, it is High Trans and approaching Skyfather level. Because no single feat might place him at Odin level (though I still think some approach it based on implied power in the encounter, even with certain ambiguities), but if you take the powers and limits (or lack thereof) he displayed throughout, it adds up to something that's close (remember, in most of these fights he was never really pushed near his limit). I still haven't figured out a Trans. character that can duplicate his feats and wins, which at worst still places him at the head of the Trans. class.
I think you're also throwing around "amped" a bit cavalierly. Without going back and checking the issues, I can't remember exactly when he was and wasn't amped, and probably none of us can. However, his portrayal with and without his suit or any amp was nearly identical. There's no discernible difference in many of his feats. And it's still his same powerset. It's almost like arguing a Superman feat doesn't count because it's post sundip.
So it's your choice to disagree. But if you agree that he's among the most powerful Trans. characters, we're just splitting hairs here, because the very definition of Trans. is "above Surfer and below Skyfather" so the most powerful would by definition be damn close. Odin's best 1-2 feats - all from decades ago at this point - are ridiculous and above Prime. But the vast majority are not, and in recent years he's been portrayed as a clearly superior being to any herald types, but not untouchable. He could do what Prime did, but he'd have to work for it, and I'd be genuinely interested to see if he could handle Monarch as quickly, take as little damage from BA, run through every enemy Prime did in IC, etc.
Originally posted by carver9
Just the way both fights went. Monarch didn't use half of his powers on Prime looking at everything he has done.
Exactly, and Prime cut him up like tissue paper. The clear, almost painfully obvious implication in Monarch's showings was:
Monarch >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a sh*t-ton of A-list heroes
Prime > Monarch
The whole arc was a bunch of power level vs. battle fan service, starting with Arena and going through Countdown. It was cring-inducingly bad, but almost impossible to say it didn't represent a clear and impressive win for Prime.
Originally posted by carver9
Prime can beat Thor but Hulk literally solos this sh**. Prime ISN'T on his level. WWH would give him a run for his money. WBH snaps him. The thing that makes this worse is, the battle is contained. WTF.
(hugs u while giving sympathetic pat on back) Buddy, I can't believe you don't know why people don't respect you. But it's ok, I'll still be your friend.
Prime , very easy. Neither Thor nor Hulk did anything to even suggest they could take on the quality and quantity of Heralds (like Superman, WW, Hal, Alan, Ion etc.) like Prime did. And he was still superior to them unlike Black Adam in WW3 he faced the best Heralds of DC and still did fine.
Hulk or Thor would have their hands full with Superman and would probably lose, Add Alan or Hal in an two vs one match and Hulk or Thor get stomped. This here is a joke.
Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Prime , very easy. Neither Thor nor Hulk did anything to even suggest they could take on the [b]quality and quantity of Heralds (like Superman, WW, Hal, Alan, Ion etc.) like Prime did. And he was still superior to them unlike Black Adam in WW3 he faced the best Heralds of DC and still did fine.Hulk or Thor would have their hands full with Superman and would probably lose, Add Alan or Hal in an two vs one match and Hulk or Thor get stomped. This here is a joke. [/B]
Can I have some of what ure smoking?
Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Prime , very easy. Neither Thor nor Hulk did anything to even suggest they could take on the [b]quality and quantity of Heralds (like Superman, WW, Hal, Alan, Ion etc.) like Prime did. And he was still superior to them unlike Black Adam in WW3 he faced the best Heralds of DC and still did fine.Hulk or Thor would have their hands full with Superman and would probably lose, Add Alan or Hal in an two vs one match and Hulk or Thor get stomped. This here is a joke. [/B]
Lol.