Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
Question for the people knocking Batman-Prime's post:Could Hulk and Thor beat this team together:
Wonder Woman, Donna Troy, Superman, Hal Jordan, the Flash, Uncle Sam, Superboy, Krypto, Firestorm, Alan Scott and all the others all at once?
Scans of Prime beating that team.
Originally posted by Harbinger
I think the derision moreso comes from the idea that Hal, Clark, or Alan could also solo Thor and Hulk, not from Prime being able to do so.To answer the question, though, they obviously couldn't take that team.
So you don't think Superman being serious like in OWAW could beat Thor in WM or WBHulk? Or Hal at Krona buster mode? Or Alan, who is > Heraldlevel?
BTW I never said Thor AND Hulk together could or would be soloed by Hal or Clark. The word OR and later the two (WW and Supes) vs 1 Hulk or Thor, should be enough to get rid of any misunderstandings.
Prime would spitestomp those two.
Originally posted by Batman-PrimeThen I misread the post; I thought you were trying to say Supes > Thor and Hulk. My apologies.
So you don't think Superman being serious like in OWAW could beat Thor in WM or WBHulk? Or Hal at Krona buster mode? Or Alan, who is > Heraldlevel?BTW I never said Thor AND Hulk together could or would be soloed by Hal or Clark. The word OR and later the two (WW and Supes) vs 1 Hulk or Thor, should be enough to get rid of any misunderstandings.
Prime would spitestomp those two.
I'll give you OWAW Supes > Thor or Hulk. I wouldn't say that Hal (even in Krona buster mode) would take Thor given Mjolnir's absorption capabilities, though. The increased energy output helps Hal, but I wouldn't give him the majority, though. I'd take that Hal over WBHulk, though.
Alan, not being gimped against Mjolnir like a normal GL would, take solo both, though. If he can take out Mordru, he can take this team.
Originally posted by Harbinger
Then I misread the post; I thought you were trying to say Supes > Thor and Hulk. My apologies.I'll give you OWAW Supes > Thor or Hulk. I wouldn't say that Hal (even in Krona buster mode) would take Thor given Mjolnir's absorption capabilities, though. The increased energy output helps Hal, but I wouldn't give him the majority, though. I'd take that Hal over WBHulk, though.
Alan, not being gimped against Mjolnir like a normal GL would, take solo both, though. If he can take out Mordru, he can take this team.
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No prob, my english isn't the best and I need to be more clear ^^.
Imho Heralds like Superman, Thor, SS, Hal or Hulk are operating sometimes at Trans or Skyfatherlevels, compared to B-List Heralds.
Once they do it on a more regular basis like Alan or SBP I wouldn't place them at the Herald Tier anymore. That said, I don't think that all things considered, any of the Top Heralds I named would be able to beat two other Top Heralds at the same time. 🙂
Originally posted by Digi
I'll have to go back and read it, but it seems like something that will be hard to see as anything but writer hyperbole. Mjolnir doesn't get amped, his lightning doesn't hit any harder. His versatility with the hammer doesn't improve. So he gets....angrier and stronger?
It is apparently a physical amp.The statement on True Warrior madness was a pretty straightforward one and I see no reason not to take it at face value. Still this is all tangential to the core issue being discussed here since it is not even True Warrior madness Thor that is within this thread but rather the Blood and Thunder version.
And I think you're underselling him still. We could add in Time Trapper in the Legion story arc (not to mention the fight with the Legion iteslf). Or heat vision-ing right through Kal's hand. Or his speed, which isn't being talked about here (and really should be).
It's also unclear whether or not the Black Adam thing was magic immunity or just psychotic durability. Surviving the Monarch encounter suggests that it could easily be the latter. Btw, no-sell was the wrong word there, but he survived none the worse for wear. Monarch shouldn't be underestimated. As mentioned by Harbinger, he was treating legit high heralds like gnats, and backing up his demeanor every time he did anything.
Not underselling him, just objecting to the conflation, exaggeration and miscontrual of feats that are of themselves impressive enough for such wrongful aggrandizement to not be unecessary. First and foremost, the most impressive feats you have referenced in this thread (Monarch explosionetc) have been from Guardian amped Prime, a more powerful version of the character, that is not even specified within this thread. Even that feat despite its already insane impressiveness has been fairly misrepresented (as koed and floating helplesly does not qualify as none the worse for wear in my estimation). The Black Adam incident is also being misrepresented as it was clearly magic immunity, seeing as Prime specifically mentions how the magic tickles. Moreover even if we conveniently discount that caveat, the feat is no more impressive (less so actually) than WBHs no selling of the simultaneous attacks Wendigo, Bi Beast and Armcheddon ( a character who casually downed the Merged Hulk with a blast) and yet i would shudder if anyone labelled that feat skyfather level let alone above it. The same goes for his heatvisioning through Kal els hand which is impressive in terms of overall power but ultimately not above and beyond the feats accomplished by other characters typically considered Trans.
I don't know of a single herald who could casually wreck or rearrange planets like Prime, and that includes Superman, Surfer, and their best feats.Like I said, when you add together his entire history, which also includes almost no bad feats whatsoever, it is High Trans and approaching Skyfather level. Because no single feat might place him at Odin level (though I still think some approach it based on implied power in the encounter, even with certain ambiguities), but if you take the powers and limits (or lack thereof) he displayed throughout, it adds up to something that's close (remember, in most of these fights he was never really pushed near his limit). I still haven't figured out a Trans. character that can duplicate his feats and wins, which at worst still places him at the head of the Trans. class.
I readily agree that Primes feats of rearranging/moving planets are above what is typical of high heralds however that is not analogous with nor does it necessitate that such feats are near skyfather level or above it. Matter of factly, strengthwise, you havent shown anything quantifiably superior to WBHs Dark dimension feat. WBHs feat in the dark dimension involved the destruction of the dark dimension planet (which if it encompassed the dark dimension would necessarilly be larger than earth) and nearby moons, the outright disintegration of peers of Savage Hulk in the form of Wendigo and Bi Beast, disintegration of a hugely amped fing fang foom (amped to be powerful enough to conquer the world), disintegration of Armcheddon (a superior to Merged Hulk and who was physically superior to Bi Beast and Wendigo, as demonstrated by their respective battles against a holding back WBH), and disintegration of the entire race of mindless ones (countless), whose combined numbers were too much for Umar ( a legit skyfather in her own dimension) to even survive let alone put down.......all from the residual shockwave from his mid air collision with Betty that took place hundreds of metres in the air and miles away from the characters in question. Generally,it would take far more force to disintegrate (likely hundreds of times) a person with a punch (lol) than it would take to knock them out for instance. Then it would take exponentially more (several several orders of magnitutde) force to disintegrate that same being from not the direct impact but the residual shockwave of that impact, which happens hundreds of metres in the air and miles away from the beings in question, due to the exponential dissipation of the force with distance as well as unfocused outward radiation of the energy through which the force is applied. Hence already, even without taking into account the planet also getting destoyed by that resisdual shockwave, the feat is ultra impressive. Then finally and most pertinently, the multiplicity of characters involved (all class 100), would mean that the already gargantuan amount of force necessary to disintegrate even one of the characters in question from that shockwave would have to be applied (in varying degrees due to varying durability levels) to multiple characters and then you consider that there are billions of mindless ones (enough that even a skyfather couldnt put their totality down) in addition to Wendigo,Bi Beast,Armchedon and Fing Fang Foom......it is mindbogglingly impressive.Even dividing it in half with it being a shared feat doesnt hurt the it, as we are dealing with a feat exponentially exponentially greater than typical planet busting (ala gladiator), and in terms of relative charracter comparisons, with WBH displaying exponentially greater strength than even WWH showed...
Prime winning, will be because of his use ofspeed not by straight outmuscling the team as physically they operate on a level far above what is typical of Hulk and Thor
Additionally, your reasoning regarding his lack of displayed limits leads to a slippery slope as your line of argument based on what you perceive as his aura of invincibility could be applied to a number of Trans level characters that were portrayed as near unbeatable for a time. Concerning feats, I doubt Prime could accomplish all the feats of other Trasns level characters either.
I think you're also throwing around "amped" a bit cavalierly. Without going back and checking the issues, I can't remember exactly when he was and wasn't amped, and probably none of us can. However, his portrayal with and without his suit or any amp was nearly identical. There's no discernible difference in many of his feats. And it's still his same powerset. It's almost like arguing a Superman feat doesn't count because it's post sundip
Not at all. The guardian amp was a confirmed on panel amp that occured after prime absorbed the energy from the guardians explosion. It was pretty definiteive. Yes its his same powerset but the abilities within that powerset were augmented. Furthermore a superman feat that was performed by sundipped superman certainly does not count for regular non-sundipped superman because his abilities are amped.
So it's your choice to disagree. But if you agree that he's among the most powerful Trans. characters, we're just splitting hairs here, because the very definition of Trans. is "above Surfer and below Skyfather" so the most powerful would by definition be damn close. Odin's best 1-2 feats - all from decades ago at this point - are ridiculous and above Prime. But the vast majority are not, and in recent years he's been portrayed as a clearly superior being to any herald types, but not untouchable. He could do what Prime did, but he'd have to work for it, and I'd be genuinely interested to see if he could handle Monarch as quickly, take as little damage from BA, run through every enemy Prime did in IC, etc.
I see Prime as a high level Trans character but see their being a bit more of a gap between Trans and skyfather than u probably do. Even just recently, Odin was seen going toe to toe with galactus which suggests that his status has not reduced as drastically as you suggest. I also have no doubt that Odin could accomplish a vast majority of Primes feats without too much trouble (the Black Adam feat especially).
In this match up Prime can win via speed and smart fighting. imo if he gets too up close and personal against these much more powerful versions of these characters (Thor and Hulk), he loses.
^reason why I keep falling back on BT Thor is obvious. I'm still unsure as to what true Warrior Madness Thor's upper limits are. As far as I'm concerned, BT Thor is probably the most unstoppable version that did not receive a tangible external amp. I could be wrong since I am far from the preeminent Thor expert around these parts.
Originally posted by Batman-Prime
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No prob, my english isn't the best and I need to be more clear ^^.Imho Heralds like Superman, Thor, SS, Hal or Hulk are operating sometimes at Trans or Skyfatherlevels, compared to B-List Heralds.
Once they do it on a more regular basis like Alan or SBP I wouldn't place them at the Herald Tier anymore. That said, I don't think that all things considered, any of the Top Heralds I named would be able to beat two other Top Heralds at the same time. 🙂
Hulk has been operating past those levels for YEARS now. You need to catch up on your reading bro.
Why is BA's punch to SBP being lowballed? BA amped his punch with magic and it only tickled. Why are people implying that it only proves sbp's magic immunity? It's clear as day and proven throughout their history that when BA or Captain Marvel amp their punches with magic it, they are near superman level punches physically amped by magic. So SBP took a cheapshot that was superman level amped to the nth degree with magic. You've seen what these types of punches when thrown as cheapshots do to superman but it only tickled SBP. Now compare what WWH did with a cheap shot that wasn't amped by magic to a sky father. That right there shows SBP with skyfather + durability and it 's much greater if you take the surviving a universe buster at point blank range. The same blast the monitors ran off from.
Originally posted by Diesldude
Why is BA's punch to SBP being lowballed? BA amped his punch with magic and it only tickled. Why are people implying that it only proves sbp's magic immunity? It's clear as day and proven throughout their history that when BA or Captain Marvel amp their punches with magic it, they are near superman level punches physically amped by magic. So SBP took a cheapshot that was superman level amped to the nth degree with magic. You've seen what these types of punches when thrown as cheapshots do to superman but it only tickled SBP. Now compare what WWH did with a cheap shot that wasn't amped by magic to a sky father. That right there shows SBP with skyfather + durability.
So I'm not the only one who thinks it's stupid that people think Black Adam's Aton-Amped punches were no-sold by SBP because of his mystical immunity, instead of he's that f*cking durable. I always see Captain Marvel's Zeus-Amping as boosting the strength, and don't really see Black Adam's mystical nature mean his punches' force is negated against SBP.
Originally posted by Diesldude
Why is BA's punch to SBP being lowballed? BA amped his punch with magic and it only tickled. Why are people implying that it only proves sbp's magic immunity? It's clear as day and proven throughout their history that when BA or Captain Marvel amp their punches with magic it, they are near superman level punches physically amped by magic. So SBP took a cheapshot that was superman level amped to the nth degree with magic. You've seen what these types of punches when thrown as cheapshots do to superman but it only tickled SBP. Now compare what WWH did with a cheap shot that wasn't amped by magic to a sky father. That right there shows SBP with skyfather + durability and it 's much greater if you take the surviving a universe buster at point blank range. The same blast the monitors ran off from.
You do know Prime was screaming out in pain when Adam punched him right.? It did more than tickle him.
http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc260/Superman-Prime_Respect/blackadamfail1.jpg
Aaarrgh...blood being punched from his mouth. I don't consider that tanking.
