The Avengers Vs the Fantastic four Vs Xmen

Originally posted by BlackZero30x
but wasn't his actual mutant power to be invulnerable as long as he has momentum? Once he was left phased into the floor wouldn't he have lost his momentum?

IIRC, he was unstoppable once he gained momentum. I don't think his invulnerability power had anything to do with his momentum. Going from him being completely unharmed after being phased into the ground, that seems to agree that his two powers are separate of each other.

Originally posted by Robtard
Yet you also are, by saying that despite her showing the ability to completely phase through solid objects, it's still a no go to solid objects like Mjolnir which has zero feats affecting phased objects. I'm arguing from a completely physical aspect. Xavier likely could mess her up. Dark Phoenix too considering she turned a solid object into pure energy. Better arguments could be made there.

We covered that already. My cell phone could cause interference to electrical devices. Mjolnir's not "obviously" magical in the films, see Clarke's 3rd law. Even Thor has said "science and magic are the same" in Asgard. So it's inconclusive, could be magic or it could be highly advanced tech or both. What does Cap's shield have to do with anything? Are yo claiming Kitty couldn't phase through that as well?

Except we literally see Juggernaut be invulnerable. But let's not go with what's seen, guesses are better.

Incorrect, going with what's shown instead of "we don't know" (which is often used in these debates when people can't argue a way for their favorite to win) is not a No Limit Fallacy. Feats in here count for a reason, they count more than wild guesses, eg 'Mjolnir affects electronics, ergo it can affect phased mutants.'

You've also just used a Strawman. I never said "Kitty is immune to any form of attack as long as she is phased". I argued she's immune to physical attacks while phased, as shown.

Pretty sure Thor opened up by throwing Mjolnir and knocking Iron Man on his back. But that's three (maybe 2) examples of Thor opening with lightning compared to the more where he opened up with using Mjolnir as a blunt object. Dude mostly fights like a brick. What's your point though? He's going to blast a phased Kitty with lightning and it's just going to hurt her cos?

-Battle on Jotunheim he opened with a swing
-Battle with Loki in Odin's chamber another smash (iirc)
-Battle with the Destroyer, pretty sure he opens by throwing Mjolnier and then flies off
-Battle with Hulk, completely bricks it
-Battle with Loki in Stark Tower, bricks it
-Fighting Chitauri with Captain, bricks it

Dude's a brick.

How do you know he can survive being phased into a solid object in the first place? That's akin to affecting him on the molecular level. Entertaining that he could, how exactly does he "blast out"?

The point being you are assigning auto feats to her, when she clearly has no feats of passing through a vibranium shield or whatever metal Thor's hammer is made of, along with the extra goodies that come with it.

Your cell phone can not jam high level shield equipment by it's mere presence.

Also as stated by Hogun in Thor, "A master of MAGIC could sneak 3 Jotuns into Asgard." That is an Asgardian calling their stuff as magic when referring to Loki, and while yes it could just be science we don't know about yet, that doesn't change the point in that you are assigning Kitty auto feats against something we clearly have no idea how it operates or what it is capable of. Although we do know it has more then just physical qualities to it.

You claim I'm making a no limits fallacy on Thor's hammer, but I'm not. I'm not stating Thor for sure can take Kitty out while phased but neither am I going to over look the fact that Kitty has never been tested against an item like Mjolnor or against an item with the properties of Cap's shield. Considering we have no idea how she even phases to begin with there is no telling what set of properties can effect her while phased physical or otherwise.

As for the Juggernaut, you can't say he is invulnerable you can only say he is invulnerable up to his feats possibly slightly past that. Thor and Hulk both flat out have better durability and strength feats than Cain had.

Why couldn't see touch him? Thor's shown a willingness to engage opponents head more so than flying around and attacking that way.

You stated he attacks people headlong and thus inferred that he would be close enough for Kitty to touch him.

Which is why I showed where in multiple scenarios he took a foe from a distance.

For instance the Hammer throwing puts Thor no where near Kitty to touch him.

As for this list

-Battle on Jotunheim he opened with a swing
-Battle with Loki in Odin's chamber another smash (iirc)
-Battle with the Destroyer, pretty sure he opens by throwing Mjolnier and then flies off
-Battle with Hulk, completely bricks it
-Battle with Loki in Stark Tower, bricks it
-Fighting Chitauri with Captain, bricks it

You're right he did throw his hammer at the Destroyer first and then flew off, but see again he didn't engage the destroyer in H2H.

He fought the Hulk H2H cause he was on the Hellicarrier where is other powers would have destroyed it so he was forced to.

As for fighting against the Chitauri as I've already said Thor opened up that fight with lightning from the sky, and during his fight used a car to smash a group of them.

So you only have 4 instances where Thor fought close range from the get go.

Against the instances where he didn't
-Destroyer
-Iron-Man
-Chitauri
-Lightning against the Leviathons
-As soon as his friends were clear, unleashed the Joteinhiem Buster
-He flew through the Frost Giant Monster(Which wouldn't give Kitty time to phase him in the ground)

So that's roughly an even split of where Thor starts of H2H vs him not going H2H off the bat which is what I said.

You're idea that Thor is a brick is false.

As for how I know Thor can survive, is because Juggernaut did and Thor has much better feats than Cain does. I know he can bust out because he has better strength feats than Cain does, as well as much better power attacks.

Originally posted by Newjak
No I'm saying she has only been shown to phase through a limited range of objects, and in this fight there are objects here with properties her powers have never been tested against. Simply stating that she is immune to them because they are physical and no physical force was shown to effect when she went against a very limited range of physical objects is in fact a No Limits Fallacy.

The point being you are assigning auto feats to her, when she clearly has no feats of passing through a vibranium shield or whatever metal Thor's hammer is made of, along with the extra goodies that come with it.

Your cell phone can not jam high level shield equipment by it's mere presence.

Also as stated by Hogun in Thor, "A master of MAGIC could sneak 3 Jotuns into Asgard." That is an Asgardian calling their stuff as magic when referring to Loki, and while yes it could just be science we don't know about yet, that doesn't change the point in that you are assigning Kitty auto feats against something we clearly have no idea how it operates or what it is capable of. Although we do know it has more then just physical qualities to it.

You claim I'm making a no limits fallacy on Thor's hammer, but I'm not. I'm not stating Thor for sure can take Kitty out while phased but neither am I going to over look the fact that Kitty has never been tested against an item like Mjolnor or against an item with the properties of Cap's shield. Considering we have no idea how she even phases to begin with there is no telling what set of properties can effect her while phased physical or otherwise.

As for the Juggernaut, you can't say he is invulnerable you can only say he is invulnerable up to his feats possibly slightly past that. Thor and Hulk both flat out have better durability and strength feats than Cain had.

You stated he attacks people headlong and thus inferred that he would be close enough for Kitty to touch him.

Which is why I showed where in multiple scenarios he took a foe from a distance.

For instance the Hammer throwing puts Thor no where near Kitty to touch him.

As for this list

FYI he never hit Loki in Odin's chamber Loki blasted him with Odin's spear before any fighting happened. I'm assuming you meant the Bi-Frost fight.

You're right he did throw his hammer at the Destroyer first and then flew off, but see again he didn't engage the destroyer in H2H.

He fought the Hulk H2H cause he was on the Hellicarrier where is other powers would have destroyed it so he was forced to.

As for fighting against the Chitauri as I've already said Thor opened up that fight with lightning from the sky, and during his fight used a car to smash a group of them.

So you only have 4 instances where Thor fought close range from the get go.

Against the instances where he didn't
-Destroyer
-Iron-Man
-Chitauri
-Lightning against the Leviathons
-As soon as his friends were clear, unleashed the Joteinhiem Buster
-He flew through the Frost Giant Monster(Which wouldn't give Kitty time to phase him in the ground)

So that's roughly an even split of where Thor starts of H2H vs him not going H2H off the bat which is what I said.

You're idea that Thor is a brick is false.

As for how I know Thor can survive, is because Juggernaut did and Thor has much better feats than Cain does. I know he can bust out because he has better strength feats than Cain does, as well as much better power attacks.

Circles and circles.

If your argument is "I don't know" in regards to Mjolnir affecting Kitty cos of assumed magical properties, which of course even if we go with Mjolnir being magical as fact, being magical in no ways means it can affect phased objects just because it's magic. Not all magic is equal. Assuming that is a No Limit Fallacy in of itself. Why debate the Mjolnir aspect if "you don't know"?

He does attack people head long more; dude's a brick, eg the car mash is more of a head on attack. But going with "Thor's going to lightning Kitty from the get go" as fact, what exactly is lightning going to do to her while she's phased?

Interesting, you're comparing being punched by Hulk, surviving explosions, being stabbed and such to being phased into a solid object. One character can be weaker than another, yet handle some given attack better. Why not apply your same logic you used on Kitty in regards to Mjolnir, ie "Thor's never been tested against being phased in to a solid object so we can't know"? Biased?

Originally posted by Robtard
Circles and circles.

If your argument is "I don't know" in regards to Mjolnir affecting Kitty cos of assumed magical properties, which of course even if we go with Mjolnir being magical as fact, being magical in no ways means it can affect phased objects just because it's magic. Not all magic is equal. Assuming that is a No Limit Fallacy in of itself. Why debate the Mjolnir aspect if "you don't know"?

He does attack people head long more; dude's a brick, eg the car mash is more of a head on attack. But going with "Thor's going to lightning Kitty from the get go" as fact, what exactly is lightning going to do to her while she's phased?

Interesting, you're comparing being punched by Hulk, surviving explosions, being stabbed and such to being phased into a solid object. One character can be weaker than another, yet handle some given attack better. Why not apply your same logic you used on Kitty in regards to Mjolnir, ie "Thor's never been tested against being phased in to a solid object so we can't know"? Biased?

Everything else is the same no limits fallacy you've been spouting and I've been correcting.

Originally posted by Newjak
We know Juggernaut survived because of his durability, we know Thor has better durability feats.
Therefore Thor will survive the same type of attacks that Juggernaut can based on durability.

Everything else is the same no limits fallacy you've been spouting and I've been correcting.

You dodged two question. What exactly are you debating if you "don't know". What exactly is lightning going to do to a phased Kitty?

Using your same logic you applied to Kitty's phasing, we don't know exactly how Juggernaut survived being phased into solid matter, maybe durability, maybe not. Considering in the director's cut of the film Wolverine stabs him, though he's fine, he is stabbed. So again, why not a "Thor's never been phased, so we don't know" stance?

WTF are you spinning now while patting yourself on the back? I asked questions which you dodged in part, I didn't make statements except to point out the No Limit on the magic aspect, which is true.

Originally posted by Robtard
Using your same logic you applied to Kitty's phasing, we don't know exactly how Juggernaut survived being phased into solid matter. Considering in the director's cut of the film Wolverine stabs him.

So unless he healed his body through concrete along with his cloths it was due to his durability he survived no other special power.

Not to mention in the same scene you are referring to Storm KOes Cain with the help of Wolverine acting as a conduit for lightning.

Which also makes your earlier claim of Cain being Invulnerable in accurate.

We know Cain survived because of his durability(It's the only relevant power he has to keep him from dying in that instance), but we don't know how Kitty phases we don't know how her phasing would handle having an object with special properties put through it like Thor's hammer or Cap's Shield.

Thus you haven't applied my logic to anything or caught me in some trap. You just keep going with the same no limits fallacy as always.

Kitty is untouchable to any physical attack. Why cause she went through metal, stone, and a few people wow that's a real good range of feats to make such a broad and absolute claim. That was sarcasm by the way.

Originally posted by Newjak
That would suggest he has a healing factor since he got stabbed and it healed.

So unless he healed his body through concrete along with his cloths it was due to his durability he survived no other special power.

Not to mention in the same scene you are referring to Storm KOes Cain with the help of Wolverine acting as a conduit for lightning.

Which also makes your earlier claim of Cain being Invulnerable in accurate.

We know Cain survived by because of his durability(It's only relevant power he ahs to keep him dying in that isntance), we don't know how Kitty phases we don't know how her phasing would handle having an object with special properties put through it like Thor's hammer or Cap's Shield.

Thus you haven't applied my logic to anything or caught me in some trap. You just keep going with the same no limits fallacy as always.

Kitty is untouchable to any physical attack. Why cause she went through metal, stone, and a few people wow that a real good range of feats to make such a claim a broad and absolute claim. That was sarcasm by the way.

Again "don't know"? You the same the same strict logic you're applying to Kitty.

Being KO'ed by lightning isn't the same as being stabbed or being phased.

Again, you don't know for sure, so why claim one and not the other. Again, if you don't know if Mjolnir would affect Kitty, what exactly are you arguing here?

Incorrect, I'm applying your same "don't know" tactic, you're just dictating when "I don't know" applies, despite not knowing. ie if something can potentially defeat Thor, then apply "we don't know".

Going with what's shown is the way to go, she phased through solids, unless otherwise shown. But again, if you don't know if Mjolnir will affect Kitty, since it has absolutely zero "affecting phased objects" feats as Kitty has "being hit by Mjolnir" feats, what exactly are you debating? Cos it seems to be little more than Thor wanking as seen in the MVF many a time

Originally posted by Robtard
Again "don't know"? You the same the same strict logic you're applying to Kitty.

Being KO'ed by lightning isn't the same as being stabbed or being phased.

Again, you don't know for sure. Again, if you don't know if Mjolnir would affect Kitty, what exactly are you arguing here?

Incorrect, I'm applying your same "don't know" tactic, you're just dictating when "I don't know" applies, despite not knowing. ie if something can potentially defeat Thor, then apply "we don't know".

Going with what's shown is the way to go. But again, if you don't know if Mjolnir will affect Kitty, since it has absolutely zero "affecting phased objects" feats as Kitty has "being hit by Mjolnir" feats, what exactly are you debating? Cos it seems to be little more than Thor wanking as seen in the MVF many a time

I'm arguing and have been arguing the fact you can't assign Kitty an auto win just because you feel like she her powers are absolute when clearly she has limited feats, and none going up against crazy materials like this.

If she had better feats then I'd be willing to stretch it a little more but her current ones are severely underpowered. So going from she has phased through some physical attacks and items of low stature to she can phase through ALL physical based attacks is quite a jump.

I'd be willing to make the argument it is less of a jump to assume Thor's hammer can interact with phased objects considering it's origins and power vs the bland and absolute statement that Kitty can phase through all things physical. And neither one would I say is absolute, but if I was betting man in this fight Thor fighting smart(Like he did on multiple occasions) solos everyone on the other teams.

.....I get the feeling you both are arguing the same thing just opposite sides of the coin.

Kitty phased through solids but not solids of a magical nature. For all we know she can only phase through the solids she showed that she could on screen.

So basically my point is arguing what kitty can and can't do will always come down to "well she did this so she can do this" with a rebuttal of "but she wasn't shown to do this so how do we know she can?"

I think this is self feeding continuing debate.

Originally posted by BlackZero30x
.....I get the feeling you both are arguing the same thing just opposite sides of the coin.

Kitty phased through solids but not solids of a magical nature. For all we know she can only phase through the solids she showed that she could on screen.

So basically my point is arguing what kitty can and can't do will always come down to "well she did this so she can do this" with a rebuttal of "but she wasn't shown to do this so how do we know she can?"

I think this is self feeding continuing debate.

😛

Originally posted by Newjak
I'm arguing and have been arguing the fact you can't assign Kitty an auto win just because you feel like she her powers are absolute when clearly she has limited feats, and none going up against crazy materials like this.

If she had better feats then I'd be willing to stretch it a little more but her current ones are severely underpowered. So going from she has phased through some physical attacks and items of low stature to she can phase through ALL physical based attacks is quite a jump.

I'd be willing to make the argument it is less of a jump to assume Thor's hammer can interact with phased objects considering it's origins and power vs the bland and absolute statement that Kitty can phase through all things physical. And neither one would I say is absolute, but if I was betting man in this fight Thor fighting smart solos everyone on the other teams.

Except I can considering we do know Kitty can phase through solids and that Mjolnir is a solid object. If you want to say "Mjolnir's magic might allow it to affect a phased Kitty", no problem; I'm game. But it's up to you to prove that, not the other way around considering Kitty for a fact has the phasing through solids going for her while Mjolnier has zero in regards to affecting phased objects.

Better feats? Considering Mjolnir has shown absolutely nothing to tell us it could affect phased objects, why not apply the "better feats" stipulation to Mjolnir? Cos smashing shit, returning to the owner and summoning lightning isn't comparable.

Which is Thor wanking considering the above. Kitty at least has shown she can phase through solids, so she has the "solid object" aspect of Mjolnir covered, while Mjolnir has no power that even mildly applies to it affecting Kitty. And no, affecting electronics isn't it.

Originally posted by Newjak
I think you are a self feeding continuing debate 😐

😛

in concede 😂

Originally posted by BlackZero30x
.....I get the feeling you both are arguing the same thing just opposite sides of the coin.

Kitty phased through solids but not solids of a magical nature. For all we know she can only phase through the solids she showed that she could on screen.

So basically my point is arguing what kitty can and can't do will always come down to "well she did this so she can do this" with a rebuttal of "but she wasn't shown to do this so how do we know she can?"

I think this is self feeding continuing debate.

Except Kitty has the phasing through solids going for her, while Mjolnir has zero in regards to affecting phased matter.

It's more of a 'can Mjolnir's [assumed] magical aspect affect a phased Kitty', as she's got the solid aspect covered. ie Kitty + 1 Mjolnir 0, going with movie feats only.

Originally posted by Robtard
Except I can considering we do know Kitty can phase through solids and that Mjolnir is a solid object. If you want to say "Mjolnir's magic might allow it to affect a phased Kitty", no problem, but it's up to you to prove that, not the other way around considering Kitty for a fact has the phasing through solids going for her while Mjolnier has zero in regards to affecting phased objects.

Better feats? Considering Mjolnir has shown absolutely nothing to tell us it could affect phased objects, why not apply the "better feats" stipulation to Mjolnir? Cos smashing shit, returning to the owner and summoning lightning isn't comparable.

Which is Thor wanking considering the above. Kitty at least has shown she can phase through solids. She has that going in regards to Mjolnir while Mjolnir has no power that even mildly applies. And no, affecting electronics isn't it.

You could also bring up other things like Sue's Shields, energy based attacks, any number of things she has never been tested against so we don't know how she would fair.

If she had said phased through a lightning bolt from Storm, or survived a nuke I'd more inclined to believe her limits are higher but will not assign her a can take any type of physical attack based on such low end feats as phasing through some stone, metal, and people, and failing to stop the Juggernaut with one of her phasing attacks.

That's not exactly a huge list of great feats to assign her the title that she can defy all physical attacks.

Thor has a hammer that can control lightning, wind, interfere with Earth based technologies by it's mere presence, has enchantments on it that make it so the Hulk can not even pick up. Deflect Beams of Light and Energy/Laser Beams. Was forged in the heart of a dying star so we know it brings some juice.

It's not Thor wanking to suggest a hammer that by all base accounts can effect things on levels that are just physical could effect Kitty with her very limited set of feats.

And Thor could solo the field fighting smart.

All the other teams have two fliers combined to fight against Thor. If he takes to the air no one here is touching him since neither Johnny Storm or Storm is beating him solo.

Originally posted by Robtard
Except Kitty has the phasing through solids going for her, while Mjolnir has zero in regards to affecting phased matter.

It's more of a 'can Mjolnir's [assumed] magic affect a phased Kitty', as she's got the solid aspect covered. ie Kitty + 1 Mjolnir 0.

but your grouping all solid matter in one. All we know is she can phase through the solid matter that she showed she could. So by your own argument while Mjolnir has no feats affecting something thats phased there is just as much of a lack of feats showing she can phase through something mystical in nature. Heck she doesn't have the feats to prove she can phase through metals or material from Asgard either.

So as I said this will just keep feeding itself.

Originally posted by BlackZero30x
but your grouping all solid matter in one. All we know is she can phase through the solid matter that she showed she could. So by your own argument while Mjolnir has no feats affecting something thats phased there is just as much of a lack of feats showing she can phase through something mystical in nature. Heck she doesn't have the feats to prove she can phase through metals or material from Asgard either.

So as I said this will just keep feeding itself.

Originally posted by Newjak
Did I say it had to be magic, I also brought up Cap's shields cause it has special properties.

You could also bring up other things like Sue's Shields, energy based attacks, any number of things she has never been tested against so we don't know how she would fair.

If she had said phased through a lightning bolt from Storm, or survived a nuke I'd more inclined to believe her limits are higher but will not assign her a can take any type of physical attack based on such low end feats as phasing through some stone, metal, and people, and failing to stop the Juggernaut with one of her phasing attacks.

That's not exactly a huge list of great feats to assign her the title that she can defy all physical attacks.

Thor has a hammer that can control lightning, wind, interfere with Earth based technologies by it's mere presence, has enchantments on it that make it so the Hulk can not even pick up. Deflect Beams of Light and Energy/Laser Beams. Was forged in the heart of a dying star so we know it brings some juice.

It's not Thor wanking to suggest a hammer that by all base accounts can effect things on levels that are just physical could effect Kitty with her very limited set of feats.

And Thor could solo the field fighting smart.

All the other teams have two fliers combined to fight against Thor. If he takes to the air no one here is touching him since neither Johnny Storm or Storm is beating him solo.

Same would apply to Cap's shield, if you want to say vibraium's aborbing powers will affect a phased object, no problem. It's up to you to prove it, considering we at least know the shield is solid and Kitty has that part covered.

I did bring up Sue's shields in here. I noted that the Silver Surfer went through them and he was seen similarly phasing through solids. Marwash also brought up a good point concerning that. This is more of an unknown than Mjolnir though.

Agreed, Mjolnir is a vastly powerful weapon, to solids, as seen.

Except of course by saying "to suggest a hammer that by all base accounts can effect things on levels that are just physical could effect Kitty" is exactly what you're accusing me of. The only none physical thing the hammer affected was causing some sort of possible electromagnetic interference, that or it's a powerful radio in kind.

Originally posted by BlackZero30x
but your grouping all solid matter in one. All we know is she can phase through the solid matter that she showed she could. So by your own argument while Mjolnir has no feats affecting something thats phased there is just as much of a lack of feats showing she can phase through something mystical in nature. Heck she doesn't have the feats to prove she can phase through metals or material from Asgard either.

So as I said this will just keep feeding itself.

Until it's shown that some solid in question has some sort of 'affecting phased matter' attribute, yes. Why wouldn't I?

Are we really going to go to extremes and say Kitty can only phase through exact solids we've seen? Plaster wall, wood and concrete; nothing else? Cos if so, apply the same ridiculous limitations to Thor and Mjolnir.

Agreed with that.

Originally posted by Robtard
Same would apply to Cap's shield, if you want to say vibraium's aborbing powers will affect a phased object, no problem. It's up to you to prove it, considering we at least know the shield is solid and Kitty has that part covered.

I did bring up Sue's shields in here. I noted that the Silver Surfer went through them and he was seen similarly phasing through solids. Marwash also brought up a good point concerning that. This is more of an unknown than Mjolnir though.

Agreed, Mjolnir is a vastly powerful weapon, to solids, as seen.

Except of course by saying "to suggest a hammer that by all base accounts can effect things on levels that are just physical could effect Kitty" is exactly what you're accusing me of. The only none physical thing the hammer affected was causing some sort of possible electromagnetic interference, that or it's a powerful radio in kind.

It happens when we clearly see Doom,using surfer's Powers, launch a metal spike at Reed using the same material Surfer is made of. Sue tries to jump in front and block it but it goes right through her shields and stabs her while half of it is still sticking out of the shield.

If had been phasing that was the reason Surfer had gone through the shields then doom's attack would have bounced of off Sue's Shield yet it passes through the same way Surfer did.

And before you say the spike was phased, if it had been phased going through the shield it wouldn't have hit Sue and gone right through her.

Originally posted by Newjak
The rest is teh same but I already shown how Silver surfer didn't phase to get through Sue's shield.

It happens when we clearly see Doom,using surfer's Powers, launch a metal spike at Reed using the same material Surfer is made of. Sue tries to jump in front and block it but it goes right through her shields and stabs her while half of it is still sticking out of the shield.

If had been phasing that was the reason Surfer had gone through the shields then doom's attack would have bounced of off Sue's Shield yet it passes through the same way Surfer did.

And before you say the spike was phased, if it had been phased going through the shield it wouldn't have hit Sue and gone right through her.

As I said, the Silver was a possible, not a certainty.

Originally posted by marwash22
that shield was shown to stop solid matter, if Kitty isn't solid, i don't see why it would stop her.