COUNT DOOKU & GENERAL KENOBI vs DARTH SIDEOUS

Originally posted by Nephthys

And this is opposed to O8i-Wan, who was clearly and o8viously pushing himself to the limit in that fight?

What did you expect it to be a walk in the park for him?

Originally posted by Nephthys
As you pointed out, Filoni himself said that O8i-Wan was in an extremely focused, determined mindset and 'wasn't going to lose'. He was clearly spurred on 8y Adi Galia's death. You sir, are full of shit.

Oh so being focused means he's doing something that's beyond his ability? What special one-off enhancement did he have?

No it means he's fulfilling his potential for once.

And his performance against the duo was far better than Ventress's rage enhanced performance against the Skywalker/Kenobi duo. Ventress got one deadly kick on Obi-Wan but hardly matched them both at all. They disarmed her pretty quickly and did not want to kill her.

Whilst Obi-Wan was matching both Maul and Opress in Sabers, while they were both out for the kill. And he actually did chop one of them up, not just temporarily floor them.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The CW movie is completely irrelevent at this point. 8oth of them have o8viously improved to the point where they are unrecognisa8le to the characters in that movie.

Kenobi was superior then, and is obviously superior now.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It's compara8le 8ecause she 8eat his ass while simultaneously fighting Anakin. It's the exact same situ8ion.

Did she in her rage enhancement match them both??

Nope. They had her at their mercy at least twice, but let her lve

Maul and Opress were not being so merciful. And Obi-Wan did not have any kind of special enhancement except that he was ready and not holding back.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You're a fool if you really 8elieve that.

No, it isn't. I see no reason why it's illogical to compare the two fights considering its the same opponent for 8oth of them.

Ah right so it's logical to compare how both Kenobi and Fisto did against Grievous... (and btw Kenobi defeated him quicker than Fisto did).

But it's NOT logical to compare Kenobi's and Ventress's fight against the same opponent - Opress.

Double standards much Neph??

Whose full of shit now??

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Then quit bringing up the fact that she defeated him on Cestus as evidence to support your argument that she's above Fisto. Double standards much?

No because you've not brought anything to the table that suggest Fisto is in Kenobi's league currently.

You just want us to assume he is.

That's clutching to straws JT. It really is.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Then you are LOST!

So what it wasn't a rage enhanced Ventress? So Ventress under normal circumstances can force choke Skywalker, something even Count Dooku's failed to do in all their fights??

And I see you failed to recount all the occasions Ventress has repeatedly come close to defeating Kenobi.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Don't remember anything about MGs when Grievous nearly crushed Kenobi's head and ragdolled him numerous times.

What's this numerous times BS??

In Arc troopers he hits him by surprise with a third hand. And Kenobi subsequently defeats him pretty damn quick with the Force. Quicker than Fisto could.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
And BTW - GG was only utilizing TWO lightsabers - again, double standards.

Oh ok so the number of lightsabers does make a difference now??

So then I'll be obliged to point out that Fisto with 2 Sabers failed to defeat Grievous with only 3. Whilst Kenobi with a single Saber fought off and defeated all 4 of Grievous's Sabers. He also simultaneously fought off a Magnaguard in that same fight.

It doesn't matter what way you look at it CW Kenobi >> CW Fisto. Until Fisto gives us superior feats/showings there's no reason to think otherwise.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
OMFG!!!!!! She kicked him? Holy ***king Schnikies!!!!!!! WOW!!!!!!!

She did match him actually. And he never landed a kick on her.

I see you completely ignored the part where I told you Eeth Koth fought Grievous off with a wounded arm, and still defeated him in shorter time than Fisto could.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
To compare Obi-Wan, who admitted himself that he was well behind Fisto's potenital

And Mace himself admitted Obi-Wan is on par or superior to him as a Swordsman.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
in combat prowess, to Fisto now, without having ANY idea whatsoever of where Fisto stands combat-wise at this point is ***king ridiculous.

So because you don't know where Fisto stands your just going to assume he's now on par with a much more powerful Kenobi??

Great 👆

I guess Plo Koon is > ROTS Anakin because he was likely greater than him in AOTC.

Yeah let's just assume that with no evidence to back it up whatsoever 👆

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
You are prompted to compare feats between the two combatants in the context of a similar point of time, if possible. In this case, the ONLY common denomiator between Kenobi and Fisto in a relatively close period of time is... you guessed it, General Grievous. And Fisto's demolition of Grievous outstrips Kenobi's performance against the General during that time period. I'm sorry DP, but contextual and chronological evidence indicates that Fisto and Kenobi are at the very least, very similar in combat prowess.

Actually no it doesn't. Those fights were all early CW. We are now mid-late CW time period.

And Grievous's fights with Kenobi were completely different contextually different to Fisto's.

Fisto fought him outside with plenty of space to jump around and maneuver. Kenobi's 2 full on fights were indoors in close quarters.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Now, were we to have a duel between Fisto and Maul/Savage/Ventress and he gets his ass handed to him (again in the case of Ventress... ala Kenobi the first time he fought her), then you would have more ground to stand on, but as it is right now... the evidence indicates otherwise.

Fine let's just assume Plo Koon can take Maul and Savage because at one point he could take Obi-Wan and/or Anakin.

Let's just assume Eeth Koth can take Maul, Savage or Ventress because in the CW (closest time possible) he defeated Grievous with a Wounded arm.

Great logic. We now ignore best latest feats and just compare feats we know of from a similar time period. This logic will only bite you in the ass later JT as I will be sure to bring it up again.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You're a fool if you really 8elieve that.

No, it isn't. I see no reason why it's illogical to compare the two fights considering its the same opponent for 8oth of them.

It's a horrible argument that ignores all other evidence, including how the two fair against Ventress.

Plus the logic is quite bad. A>C and B>C therefore A=B.... That's wrong, even in Math.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
What did you expect it to be a walk in the park for him?

No, I'm just pointing out that Keno8i was extremely determined, as the director himself points out for why he was a8le to win.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Oh so being focused means he's doing something that's beyond his ability? What special one-off enhancement did he have?

No it means he's fulfilling his potential for once.

Heh. I don't think I need to address this point, you seem to have done a very effective point of it yourself.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And his performance against the duo was far better than Ventress's rage enhanced performance against the Skywalker/Kenobi duo. Ventress got one deadly kick on Obi-Wan but hardly matched them both at all. They disarmed her pretty quickly and did not want to kill her.

The fact that she choked them 8oth out at the same time destroys this point. She held them for an extended period of time with no indic8ion that they could have 8roken her choke. It was only after she had exhausted herself with that effort that they eventually wore her down.

Plus she's a Dark Jedi. She always uses her rage to fight. I see nothing that indicates that she was 8oosted a8ove her standard to the degree you're imagining her as.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Whilst Obi-Wan was matching both Maul and Opress in Sabers, while they were both out for the kill. And he actually did chop one of them up, not just temporarily floor them.

And they had him pressed up to wall gritting his teeth with the effort of holding them 8ack. It was only Savage's knee that ena8led him to survive. So don't act as if he completely pwned them. That is a 8arefaced lie.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Kenobi was superior then, and is obviously superior now.

Kind of like how o8viously 8iased you are. You've 8een wanking Keno8i over that duel for weeks, 8efore it even came out even. You're 'o8viously' seeing what you want to see.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Did she in her rage enhancement match them both??

Nope. They had her at their mercy at least twice, but [b]let her live

Yes, she did.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Maul and Opress were not being so merciful. And Obi-Wan did not have any kind of special enhancement except that he was ready and not holding back.

False, Filoni specifically notes Keno8i's special mindset. Even is he did not 8enefiy from one, it is ridiculous to throw out Asajj's beating of him. There's nothing to suggest a large degree of superiority for him.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Ah right so it's logical to compare how both Kenobi and Fisto did against Grievous... (and btw Kenobi defeated him quicker than Fisto did).

But it's NOT logical to compare Kenobi's and Ventress's fight against the same opponent - Opress.

Double standards much Neph??

Whose full of shit now??

You misapply the argument 8ecause you don't understand it. The A8C fallacy says that you can't say that A > C just 8ecause it > 8. No one did that with the Fisto argument. All they did was point to the duel as evidence that Keno8i is not 'leagues' superior to Fisto. There is nothing fallicious a8out that and the A8C argument does not apply.

Furthermore, when you throw out all the other evidence then it 8ecomes completely a8surd. Particularly how Ventress and O8i-Wan stack up against each other in an actual fight. I find it hilarious how much you argue that one A8C argument makes O8i-Wan superior to Ventress, 8ut wave off an actual fight 8etween the two!!!!!!!!

Holy shit, do you even read your own arguments????????

Not sure why Eeth Koth's impressive performance against Grievous is being introduced by POWER; all it's doing is adding to the list of people who are likely on par with Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Not sure why Eeth Koth's impressive performance against Grievous is being introduced by POWER; all it's doing is adding to the list of people who are likely on par with Obi-Wan.

Because that's just it. Just because all these Council Members can take Grievous does not put them on par with Obi-Wan. Not by a long shot.

The latest episode showed without a shadow of a doubt that Kenobi is at least on Par with Maul in Sabers. The same Maul who can take out Opress with the upmost of ease.

So do you guys really think all these Council Members Fisto, Koth (probably more) are all on par with Kenobi and Darth Maul in Sabers just because they can take Grievous??

That I just find crazy.

Based on their respective performances against a common foe, I have no problem accepting the idea that Koth and Fisto are on par with Kenobi for reasons exhaustively provided by JT, Nephthys, and SIDIOUS66.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah the guy whose just completely lost it over a facepalm is accusing me of being an insecure crybaby 👆

S66 Your absolutely nuts.

It's your personality in general that annoys me. Your facepalm remark just gave me a reason to address my issue with you, otherwise I was just guna continue to ignore you and let you continue to make a fool out of yourself. Everything you do here is for your convenience. For example, you will ignore consistent showings in favor of less-consistent showings in a desperate attempt to gain the upperhand in a debate; or you will go from a smart ass to "poor me I did nothing wrong" in an attempt to get others to back off of you, despite bringing it upon yourself. If you're going to be a certain way, then be that way. If you're going to change, then change. Stop trying to change your character back and forth in order to be liked, or in order to gain sympathy from others. If I were you, I would at least drop the cocky smartass act, since you have no reason to be that way. To be cocky, you should at least have a reason, you know..like not constantly missing points, or at least making a decent argument without constant use of double standards. And most of all, if you're going to act a certain way to people, then expect the same treatment in return. Stop complaining when someone insults you back, and stop accusing others of being childish when you are the most childish one here.

For a while there, I did start to like you. You were doing so good, until you found out about Maul and Savage being defeated by Sidious. You then started to make up excuses for Maul being so easily defeated, claiming he was not giving it his all (despite Maul's musings suggesting otherwise). I then called you out on your claims, and proceeded to give a far more well-reasoned pro-Sidious argument. You got upset and started accusing me of being a fanboy. From then on you went back to your old annoying ways

Now, with all that said, I have no reason to continue this with you, so I'm done.

Neph.. First your mad.

Second I hate your 8's!

Right now that I got that out of the way.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, I'm just pointing out that Keno8i was extremely determined, as the director himself points out for why he was a8le to win.

Yeah you shouldn't just pick and choose what the Director said. He says he was ready and focused this time unlike the last time. He was just pointing out the reason for the inconsistency of the fights in the 2 episodes.

He actually gave the reason why Obi-Wan was able is able to achieve such a feat.

You know what that reason was? That Obi-Wan is "A Very Skilled Swordsman!"

Yeah that's got one off PIS feat written all over it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The fact that she choked them 8oth out at the same time destroys this point. She held them for an extended period of time with no indic8ion that they could have 8roken her choke. It was only after she had exhausted herself with that effort that they eventually wore her down.

Plus she's a Dark Jedi. She always uses her rage to fight. I see nothing that indicates that she was 8oosted a8ove her standard to the degree you're imagining her as.

That would prove is that she's better at using Force Tk than Obi-Wan and Anakin.

Fact is though in Sabers and the all out she was completely outmatched. The only reason she even got the opportunity to do that Force Choke was they CHOSE not to kill or maim her. They asked her to surrender.

As for the boost, it's quite obvious under normal circumstances neither she nor even Dooku can Force Choke Anakin even in a one on one.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And they had him pressed up to wall gritting his teeth with the effort of holding them 8ack. It was only Savage's knee that ena8led him to survive. So don't act as if he completely pwned them. That is a 8arefaced lie.

Hitting the knee was a great tactic. It's how Obi-Wan usually overpowers his opponents, since his fighting style is a very defensive one. It was completely fair game and there's nothing to suggest he couldn't even use the same tactic again.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Kind of like how o8viously 8iased you are. You've 8een wanking Keno8i over that duel for weeks, 8efore it even came out even. You're 'o8viously' seeing what you want to see.

Well it was very wankable feat.

But I'm really not sure what you guys saw there. Even taking Adi's death out of the equation, Kenobi was clearly matching Maul in Saber combat in their one on one. The same Maul who takes out Opress with the upmost of ease in the same episode.

So to say Kenobi's defeat of Opress was a one off fluke, or that Ventress is on his level (forget Fisto) is just baseless.

Originally posted by Nephthys
False, Filoni specifically notes Keno8i's special mindset. Even is he did not 8enefiy from one, it is ridiculous to throw out Asajj's beating of him. There's nothing to suggest a large degree of superiority for him.

No wrong. I saw that interview with Filoni weeks ago, and have seen read countless other interviews with him regarding the issue. And he Never notes a "Special" mindset.

He only notes the proper mindset of being ready for combat.

And Asajj didn't even beat him. She had him on the floor. Yes that's obviously "besting" him, but it happens countless times in Star Wars. Did Opress have Dooku defated when he floored him? Did Dooku have Anakin defeated when he floored him?

No and No. Not to mention as I keep pointing out Kenobi and Anakin were clearly holding back on her.

So the fact remains after Cestus Deception, Ventress has never defeated Obi-Wan, but he has defeated her, and opponents clearly superior to her.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You misapply the argument 8ecause you don't understand it. The A8C fallacy says that you can't say that A > C just 8ecause it > 8. [b]No one did that with the Fisto argument. All they did was point to the duel as evidence that Keno8i is not 'leagues' superior to Fisto. There is nothing fallicious a8out that and the A8C argument does not apply.

Because it's a stupid argument.

Kenobi and Fisto are both superior to Grievous. Comparing who did better under completely different circumstances and environments is just an absurd attaempt to try and make an argument for Fisto = Kenobi.

To accept that but to just completely throw out Ventress's almost pathetic performance against Opress and Obi-Wan's far superior performance against him, just shows whose really being biased here.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Furthermore, when you throw out all the other evidence then it 8ecomes completely a8surd. Particularly how Ventress and O8i-Wan [b]stack up against each other in an actual fight. I find it hilarious how much you argue that one A8C argument makes O8i-Wan superior to Ventress, 8ut wave off an actual fight 8etween the two!!!!!!!! [/B]

Urmmm I think that's you whose waived off the only one on one fight they had where Kenobi was clearly superior, and instead want to cling to her flooring him one time, when he and Skywalker were clearly holding back and only trying to arrest her.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Holy shit, do you even read your own arguments????????

Do you ever open up your mind? Anyone with even a bit of an open mind would have accepted Kenobi is clearly > Ventress and Fisto after watching Revival.

^ troof
^ SIDIOUS66's words are troof.

POWER, if you want peace, you should generally practice it. As it stands, lobbing around the fanboy term is actually against the rules. If you want to sling mud, then by all means, just don't freak out when you get pelted in the face by it.

ninjaaaaa'd

Ah-men!

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Based on their respective performances against a common foe, I have no problem accepting the idea that Koth and Fisto are on par with Kenobi for reasons exhaustively provided by JT, Nephthys, and SIDIOUS66.

So you also accept Koth and Fisto are both on par with Maul right?

Great. 👆

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Ah-men!

Here endeth the lesson.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
^ troof
^ SIDIOUS66's words are troof.

POWER, if you want peace, you should generally practice it. As it stands, lobbing around the fanboy term is actually against the rules. If you want to sling mud, then by all means, just don't freak out when you get pelted in the face by it.

ninjaaaaa'd

I didn't. He's the one who freaked out over a facepalm.

This was S66's response:

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
facepalm @ you, period.

Don't think I did not notice how you were going out of your way to be somewhat civil with me, in hopes that I wouldn't join in when Tempest was going in on you. Now you go back to criticizing my argument, despite the FACT that you have no room to talk, considering how the majority of your arguments all fail. Why do you try to be so insulting and then turn around and play the victim when someone verbally attacks you? You go from being a smartass to a crybaby: 'You're a fanboy. facepalm at your argument' to 'I did nothing wrong, he is being a jerk to me, stop following in his footsteps..poor me'

To this:

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
facepalm

@ people still making this argument.

So you tell me whose freaking out over insults. If you can even call that an insult.

DARTH POWER
I didn't. He's the one who freaked out over a facepalm.

I do believe he's made it pretty clear that he's referring to the series of recent spats between him and you (and me).

DARTH POWER
So you also accept Koth and Fisto are both on par with Maul right?

Great. :UP:

Yeah, I believe they could hold their own against Savage and Maul individually.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Based on their respective performances against a common foe, I have no problem accepting the idea that Koth and Fisto are on par with Kenobi for reasons exhaustively provided by JT, Nephthys, and SIDIOUS66.

Perhaps. But in this case we are looking solely at their performance against Grievous. One must also consider their performances against Ventress as well, and Kenobi generally performs far better against her than Fisto. While that alone may not put Kenobi in a different league than Fsto it should show that he is the superior combatant.

Originally posted by ares834
Perhaps. But in this case we are looking solely at their performance against Grievous. One must also consider their performances against Ventress as well, and Kenobi generally performs far better against her than Fisto. While that alone may not put Kenobi in a different league than Fsto it should show that he is the superior combatant.

I believe the excerpt provided by JT from Cestus Deception portrays Kit as doing better than Obi-Wan against Ventress.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Yeah, I believe they could hold their own against Savage and Maul individually.

Considering Sidious effortlessly defeats Fisto and, at least from the novel's spoilers, doesn't stomp Maul in a similar fashion, I'm inclined to disagree.